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Morrigan is Flemeth's Grand-(Grand-)Daughter (from toolset)


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#1
Utoryo

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Maybe this isn't the best time to point this out as DA2 won't involve Morrigan (hopefully DA3!), but as I was browsing the toolset to check what would be most appropriate for my character to say to Flemeth given her personality (hardcore, maybe, but I don't do it often and it's still easier/faster than quick loading two or three times until you're happy with how the dialogue went for these really important moments) I stumbled upon something very... interesting. And a quick Google tells me it's likely nobody ever stumbled upon it.

The Flemeth scenes don't just have more comments on tone/intent for voice-over than the rest of the game, they also have plenty of "Editor Comments" - and many of these show the  "Original Line" - presumably the original writing from David Gaider, possibly from before many other scenes in the game were even written given the importance of Flemeth and Morrigan to the overall story.

In morrigan_main.dlg under "I am at your disposal, Grey Wardens" (just after she joins the party), look for her response to the line "Are you really Flemeth's daughter?" - the actual response is not very interesting, but the 'Original' in the "Editor Comments" box on the "Editing" tab for her response is extremely interesting:

Technically, I am her grand-daughter. Perhaps there is a "grand" or two to add to that, but regardless it was she who raised me and thus I consider her my Mother. Or was your question really something else?

Of course, that could be a lie from Morrigan (which they later decided to change into another one) or they could have changed her ancestry during the development process. If they did not, it's also very possible they decided Morrigan shouldn't know about it (like Alistair doesn't know his mother is presumably Fiona). Either way this does fit very well. Is Morrigan Flemeth's first daughter in a thousand years? No, that doesn't make sense whether there is a biological link or not.

There's something else that hints at this in the actual game:

Leliana: My mother told me stories too. She was the one who kindled my love of the old tales and legends.
Morrigan: Hmph. my mother's stories curdled my blood and haunted my dreams. No little girl wants to hear about the Wilder men her mother took to her bed, using them till they were spent, then killing them. No little girl wants to be told that this is also expected of her, once she comes of age.

This is either an evil magic ritual (my assumption when I first heard it), a lie to disturb Leliana (unlikely), or it's hinting at reproduction.

Why? There are many theories, none of which are very likely... Maybe Flemeth is no longer fertile. Or maybe she hasn't been ever since she supposedly met a demon. And why maintain such a line of daughters? Who knows. The voice-over comments (which aren't necessarily accurate but better than nothing) say that Flemeth "knows very well that Morrigan has lied to the player." So if she doesn't want Morrigan's body - then what?

One recurring theme with Flemeth is her bitterness. She clings to the past; she wishes things had been different. She regrets her lost beauty; she often mentions song and dance which probably remind her of her first lover, Osen the bard. So here's a crazy far-fetched theory: what if she was pregnant from Osen when she fled to the Wilds? What if she maintained her line of daughters mostly out of a sense of regret for what could have been? It would certainly make for a good story and turn Flemeth into an even more complex character than she already is.

But if Morrigan is telling the truth in Witch Hunt when she says Flemeth "is no blood mage, she is no abomination. She is not even truly human" then we still don't know what she actually is. My favourite theory remains that she was once human but met Fen'Harel when she fled into the Wilds and he became part of her (perhaps like the spirit who is helping keep Wynne alive - if that can extend Wynne's life by a few years, surely Fen'Harel could extend Flemeth's by much more than that).

Why would the Trickster God who imprisoned all other gods care about what was then a simple mortal mage? Well, we don't even know if he truly did imprison anything, and we don't know why he'd do it except simple amusement. So it's hard to guess at what his motivations might have been - and I describe all this as one of many possible far-fetched theories for a reason.

So that's that - sorry for the long post, but hopefully the Original Line quote alone made it worth the trouble even if it's not technically an ultimate proof of anything... :)

Modifié par Utoryo, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:26 .


#2
ViSeiRa

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Interesting, very very interesting... could be nothing, could be everything, why did the devs leave it out? alter it?

Maybe the fact that she's some kind of granddaughter will have a big effect later in the series? but I don't think the writers have reached that far into the story (i.e. DA3 and beyond)... mmm who knows?

Modifié par ViSeirA, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:39 .


#3
Chaia

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Utoryo wrote...

Why? There are many theories, none of which are very likely... Maybe Flemeth is no longer fertile. Or maybe she hasn't been ever since she supposedly met a demon. And why maintain such a line of daughters? Who knows. The voice-over comments (which aren't necessarily accurate but better than nothing) say that Flemeth "knows very well that Morrigan has lied to the player." So if she doesn't want Morrigan's body - then what?

Does it say exactly what Morrigan has been lieing about??

But either way that very interesting stuff, I wonder why being Flemeth's grand-daughter was cut from the game, unless they decided that they wanted to put them closer related; and I've been wondering what Flemeth really is since Witch Hunt, I'm hopeing their going to tell us in DA2.

Modifié par Chaia, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:46 .


#4
BTCentral

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Interesting, thanks for posting.

We may well end up not knowing for quite some time, unless of course a dev decides to expand on this.
Though if it is some sort of ongoing plot, I doubt that'd be all that likely to happen.

:)

#5
Dhiro

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Hm... well, Flemeth does look old. And, knowing that she needs to have a child ASAP so she could posses her, one would think that she would have give birth to it sooner. Hn, I wonder.

#6
AlexXIV

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Well why would the devs change it? Either to not spoil a future event, but then they would have removed it from the toolset aswell, no? More likely, they changed it because they decided Morrigan is actually Flemeth' daughter.

Also I always assumed Morrigan never lied to the Warden. She may have kept secrets, but she is a woman after all.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:47 .


#7
ViSeiRa

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AlexXIV wrote...
Also I always assumed Morrigan never lied to the Warden. She may have kept secrets, but she is a woman after all.


And women never lie? c'mon man :whistle:

#8
SleepyPerson

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If Flemmeth gave birth to Morrigan naturaly maybe she would have had to possess the body of her previous daughter, so that would make Flemmeth both the mother and grand-mother.

Modifié par TricksterPuppet, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:55 .


#9
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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That might have been the original intent, and could still be, but like many other things, it could have been something that was later changed, so that Morrigan would be Flemmeth's daughter. You find alot of things ion the toolset left over from the original plan that got cut, or altered (toolset also lists Alistair as 32 years old, when in game, he's clearly a decade younger.)

#10
AlexXIV

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ViSeirA wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Also I always assumed Morrigan never lied to the Warden. She may have kept secrets, but she is a woman after all.


And women never lie? c'mon man :whistle:


Everyone lies. Where did I say they don't? I said I always assumed Morrigan never lied to the Warden.

#11
Utoryo

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Chaia wrote...
Does it say thats what Morrigan been lieing about??

When the player asks "Is it true you intend to take Morrigan's body?", Flemeth replies "*Laughs* Oh, I do like that." - which doesn't say much but the VO comments is a tad more explicit: "she finds this to be very funny -- this is the story that Morrigan told? How cute! Obviously, she's also NOT answering the question."

Another noteworthy VO comment is when Flemeth says "Ahhh, but it is an old, old story. One that Flemeth has heard before... and even told." - it says: "waving off the details as unimportant -- she knows that Morrigan has betrayed her, and since she's betrayed many others she doesn't really take it personally". It's not very clear who the 'she' refers to here - presumably it means Flemeth betrayed many people and so doesn't take these things personally, but it could be that it is Morrigan who betrayed many before.

But either way that very interesting stuff, I wonder why being Flemeth's grand-daughter was cut from the game, unless they decided that they wanted to put them closer related

Well Morrigan's answers in the actual game are simply that she does not know, but that she remembers Flemeth with black hair (i.e. younger) and isn't sure how that is even possible. It's hard to guess what is a lie and what is not, so it's practically impossible to see how all of this might fit together. Maybe she once knew her real mother, who was also a daughter of Flemeth and looked very much like her? Not impossible, I suppose.

Well why would the devs change it? Either to not spoil a future event, but then they would have removed it from the toolset aswell, no? More likely, they changed it because they decided Morrigan is actually Flemeth' daughter.

Uhm... it's one line hidden deep inside the toolset. And for most other dialogue files they removed the Editor Comments completely - maybe they just forgot to do so here. And I stumbled upon it by pure luck, perhaps the first to do so since the toolset was released more than one year ago. This might have no deeper meaning whatsoever for a variety of reasons, but there's no reason to think Bioware leaving it in means it's worthless.

Also I always assumed Morrigan never lied to the Warden. She may have kept secrets, but she is a woman after all.

Wow... Ah, well sorry to burst your bubble then, but unless the writers gave misleading voice-over information to Flemeth's actor on purpose to force her to adopt a certain tone (which doesn't seem very likely with an actor of Kate Mulgrew's caliber), this is obviously false. I don't think Morrigan lied on most things, but she clearly did on a few important ones. I think there's no reason to trust her unconditionally even if you ignore the toolset's information - and that's coming from someone who suspects neither Morrigan nor Flemeth's plans are truly evil.

---

Also a lot of people seem to think this is in contradiction to the game saying Morrigan is Flemeth's daughter. No, the game never says that and the word daughter is only ever used in a more general sense. Morrigan claims she doesn't actually know, and the response where she originally claimed she is her grand-daughter now says that "'Twas she who raised me and thus I consider her my mother, born from her womb or not."

Modifié par Utoryo, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:11 .


#12
ViSeiRa

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AlexXIV wrote...

ViSeirA wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Also I always assumed Morrigan never lied to the Warden. She may have kept secrets, but she is a woman after all.


And women never lie? c'mon man :whistle:


Everyone lies. Where did I say they don't? I said I always assumed Morrigan never lied to the Warden.


Lol I assumed that "She is a woman after all" refers to what you said earlier about her never lying, nvm :unsure:

#13
AlexXIV

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If anyone can burst my bubble it is Bioware, and I am quite aware it is likely going to happen. I see it the way that you can trust either Flemeth or Morrigan. I chose to trust Morrigan. Neither of them seems to have something in their voice or tone that made me think they lie. So probably both 'speak true' but are probably decepting at some point. Anyway, Morrigan's the one my Warden fell in love with and who is the mother of his child.

#14
Chaia

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Utoryo wrote...

Chaia wrote...
Does it say thats what Morrigan been lieing about??

When the player asks "Is it true you intend to take Morrigan's body?", Flemeth replies "*Laughs* Oh, I do like that." - which doesn't say much but the VO comments is a tad more explicit: "she finds this to be very funny -- this is the story that Morrigan told? How cute! Obviously, she's also NOT answering the question."

Another noteworthy VO comment is when Flemeth says "Ahhh, but it is an old, old story. One that Flemeth has heard before... and even told." - it says: "waving off the details as unimportant -- she knows that Morrigan has betrayed her, and since she's betrayed many others she doesn't really take it personally". It's not very clear who the 'she' refers to here - presumably it means Flemeth betrayed many people and so doesn't take these things personally, but it could be that it is Morrigan who betrayed many before.

AH right thanks for the quick answer. It kinda makes more questions then it answers lol Posted Image, like who had betrayed many others before, but thank you for pointing this stuff out all the same.

I love it when little tid bits of information like this come out without too many spoliers attached to them, espically when their about Morrigan and Flemeth as they are the part of DA's lore I find most interesting, I hope DA3 is going to carry on the Morrigan, 'God Baby' and Flemeth plotline (and if it is I can't wait for it)

Modifié par Chaia, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:26 .


#15
Gill Kaiser

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By saying "She is a woman after all", he was implying that all woman keep secrets. Do keep up.

#16
Utoryo

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Anyway, Morrigan's the one my Warden fell in love with and who is the mother of his child.

You don't have to trust a person's every word to trust them as an individual. You can still believe someone's goals to be worthy even if you think he or she is lying about the reasons why and you don't always have to feel bitter about it.

My current Female Human Mage Warden suspects Morrigan is hiding something from her, but she's fine with it because she trusts Morrigan enough to believe her reasons are worthy nonetheless. She's not overjoyed that Morrigan doesn't want to tell her more about the Old God baby she had with Alistair (who's also king and her lover), but she still appreciates that it saves her life and likes the idea of freeing the Old God soul and maybe learning more about the true origin of the darkspawn in the process - and she trusts that Morrigan doesn't want to use it to take over the world or anything silly like that.

I'll end with a quote I really like from the last season of Doctor Who:

The Doctor: Amy, you need to start trusting me. It's never been more important.
Amy Pond: But you don't always tell me the truth.
The Doctor: If I always told you the truth, I wouldn't need you to trust me.



#17
pChar

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 You people are looking waaay too deep into it.

#18
AlexXIV

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Utoryo wrote...


Anyway, Morrigan's the one my Warden fell in love with and who is the mother of his child.

You don't have to trust a person's every word to trust them as an individual. You can still believe someone's goals to be worthy even if you think he or she is lying about the reasons why and you don't always have to feel bitter about it.

My current Female Human Mage Warden suspects Morrigan is hiding something from her, but she's fine with it because she trusts Morrigan enough to believe her reasons are worthy nonetheless. She's not overjoyed that Morrigan doesn't want to tell her more about the Old God baby she had with Alistair (who's also king and her lover), but she still appreciates that it saves her life and likes the idea of freeing the Old God soul and maybe learning more about the true origin of the darkspawn in the process - and she trusts that Morrigan doesn't want to use it to take over the world or anything silly like that.

I'll end with a quote I really like from the last season of Doctor Who:

The Doctor: Amy, you need to start trusting me. It's never been more important.
Amy Pond: But you don't always tell me the truth.
The Doctor: If I always told you the truth, I wouldn't need you to trust me.


Heh I like the quote. Well I just found myself to be unable to find a clue about the future. So I just made a choice and going to let my Warden suffer for it. I really wouldn't trust many NPCs in the game. Only the dog probably.

#19
Bryy_Miller

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I read the first post in its entirety. My initial response was "So Flemeth is a Wendigo?".



I'm a horrible person, I know. Carry on.

#20
AlexXIV

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Bryy_Miller wrote...

I read the first post in its entirety. My initial response was "So Flemeth is a Wendigo?".

I'm a horrible person, I know. Carry on.


Isn't a Wendigo some human-turned-to-monster thing that eats humans? Not a far stretch. Flemeth is a shapeshifting Wendigo then.

#21
Utoryo

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pChar wrote...
You people are looking waaay too deep into it.

Heh. If you're going to do something stupid (i.e. waste your time) then at least do it well ;)

#22
Night Prowler76

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Thats a cool find:>

#23
Tamyn

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Utoryo wrote...
 (like Alistair doesn't know his mother is presumably Fiona).


How many times must this be debunked? Alistair was conceived and born when Maric's wife was still alive. He was kept hidden partly to protect Rowan's reputation because she was still alive. Loghain confirms this. Fiona's baby was conceived and born years after Maric's wife was dead. Therefore Alistair is not Fiona's baby.

Modifié par Tamyn, 02 janvier 2011 - 11:51 .


#24
ankuu

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This is SO interesting! Really good find! Now i am wodnering if Alistair eve found out about his real mother...too bad i don't know how to work with the toolset :(

#25
Utoryo

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Tamyn wrote...
How many times must this be debunked? Alistair was conceived and born when Maric's wife was still alive. He was kept hidden partly to protect Rowan's reputation because she was still alive. Loghain confirms this. Fiona's baby was conceived and born years after Maric's wife was dead.

I said presumably, so I do admit there is doubt here. I didn't remember that conversation, so I just checked the toolset and found this quote from Loghain: "It would have ruined Rowan, after all [...]" and "He would have been the bastard prince, and a continual reminder to Rowan of Maric's infidelity".

I agree that is pretty damning to the Fiona theory, but I don't think it's so simple. Consider that the book was written several months after the game development was finished (since they delayed it for the consoles). Also consider that the Lead Writer for Loghain was not David Gaider, but Mary Kirby. I'm sure she asked David about this, but it does mean David might not even have realised that this line went into the final game when he wrote the book, and so wouldn't have thought to fix it if he changed his mind about the timeline when he wrote the book. He might also have given an on-the-spot answer when she asked and got it wrong.

My guess is that David Gaider originally either had Alistair be older than he is in the game (not that we know either way - he explicitly said the VO age was only an indication for the kind of voice he wanted and meant nothing about his actual age) or he had Rowan die later (she already survived surprisingly many years for someone supposedly tainted by the darkspawn).

Either way, I agree there's some real doubt here (which is why I said "presumably") but I still think it's more likely by far that he is Fiona's son. Not that I expect David Gaider to ever clarify that given how much he must love the tear-generation power of this kind of inconsistency ;) Anyway best get this back on topic...

Modifié par Utoryo, 02 janvier 2011 - 11:59 .