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[thesuperdarkone]

 Before anyone says anything this is not a thread based on senseless trolling at the talimancers. Even though I am not a fan of her, I do not wish to troll anyone and wish to keep this thread civil and no bashing allowed.

With that out of the way, I wish to say that Tali may not be my favorite character but she isn't one who I wish to kill and find useful. My reasoning is that Tali in ME1 was a great character as she was useful in combat and made the game enjoyable as well as other companions. The problem lies to what happened to her in ME2. Instead of the proud and young engineer, she changed into basically a rabid shepherd fanboy. It is just a fact that many of her lines in Haestrom are basically "I wish Shepherd was here" and "I miss Shepherd." This also includes the fact that people like Kelly, Kasumi, and even Liara will state that she always had a crush on you even if you never gave her the Geth data and she said that she basically only helped you to stop Saren, meaning that she hated you but suddenly does a 180 and apparently worships the ground you walk on. This is a bit jarring in that people who weren't LI like Garrus are basically ignored while Tali is shoved in your face and held up to a grail while I believe Garrus is stated to have a crush on Femshep yet no one mentions it while everyone mentions Tali's crush. In addition, Tali still shows active racism towards the geth. Even though I can understand why she has this viewpoint, but she is willing to forget it if Shepherd asks her to and she is still willing to act as though the war was entirely the Geth's fault and gives no belief on the fact that the Quarians could have treated the Geth nicely. I could continue but people will think I am trolling which I don't want to happen but the sudden "I want you Shepherd" attitude that she suddenly has due to her fans shows a bit and this never happens with Garrus. Her fans could lighten up when people say dislike her character but I have seen that talimancers have invaded some of my tali dislike groups and called us things like internet terrorists, and you can never have an honest character like poll since her fans are the vast majority and thus give biased views despite the fact that I never found anything that could make people like her into the cult that she has formed. I'll let my friend Dean the Young explain this better:

Xilizhra wrote...

She is? I found her to be quite mediocre at ground combat and only useful for hacking and suchlike (also zapping geth, but again, she was in a squad with non-quarian support). Also, she was under orders to keep herself safe because she was the only one with the know-how to discern anything about Haestrom's sun.

In the terms of lore, she is.

Not necessarily good enough to warrant a return to Shepard's team, but in terms of story she was right there fighting with Shepard. Quarians aren't bad fighters, they just don't have the resources to fight a ground war.

'Keeping herself safe' only goes so far. If Tali kept herself safe until everyone else was overrun, she still dies and still fails.

Not the current Council, and let's face it, the geth were initially wronged in the Morning War, which she's presumably figured out (she also advocated killing the Council for me).

Yes the current Council. Different Council members, but history and the world show that the vast majority of people maintain grudges against the institutions that commit a crime as well as the people involved.

Tali never showed that she 'faced it' that the Geth were initially wronged in ME1. She'll never accept it if Shepard challenges that. The fact that she does in ME2 is a unsupported change from ME1: the problem isn't that she changed, but that no reason or merit was given. In ME1, the geth were a threat that had to be shut off before it was too late. In ME2, nothing changes that first position, and now the Geth have just recently proven they are still a proven threat.

On Haestrom, she was the only one with the necessary scientific expertise to make the expedition not a complete waste. I'll concede Prazza, but I think there the problem was whomever assigned Tali to lead someone like that (a bit of turian philosophy there).

Sure. Quarian politics were also likely played.

Most definitely, but it still doesn't define her character.

Alone? Never said it did. Did her fascination with Shepard dominate overall? Yes. It wasn't just a point in and of itself, it shaded most other points as well.

"You were dead and I shouldn't have real reason to believe you can be alive, but you're Shepard!"
"You are working with Cerberus and in a position to ruin my mission to rescue Veetor, but you're Shepard!"
"Let me just record these audiologs about to provide exposition about Haestrom, and how about how I still think about Shepard!"
"Let me provide more audio regardings wishing Shepard were here!"
"Now that fifty men and women under my command have died, I want to go with Shepard!"
"I'll take a confrontational attitude with members of my new team, the crew of my new ship, and even the ship itself. But I'm here for you, Shepard!"
"I couldn't ask for a better lawyer than you, Shepard!"
"Shepard, you hold my father's name and honor in your hand, but I'll let you decide what to do because you're Shepard and follow you regardless!"
"I secretly masturbate to you, Shepard!"

And that's before the romance cannonical male-specific dialogue is started! And even if you don't pick the 'nice' options and take every chance to dis/demean/torment/go against her!

"I imply I want to have sex with you, Shepard!"
"I've always wanted you and am willing to die for your skinship, Shepard!"
"You make me sick, literally, but it's worth it for you, Shepard!"


Hell, even the crew talks about how gaga she is over you. For the longest time, even.

"I'm a trained psychologist and I can totally tell she's into you, Shepard."
"I'm an introspective theif and even I can tell you stole her heart, Shepard."
"I might have been a lonely, socially-awkward, hundred-year-old-virgin, but even I could tell she had the hots for you even back then, Shepard!"



In ME1, there was no huge attraction, no character dependence on Shepard. In ME2, you couldn't get five character points about Tali without at least 
two of them being about how much of a fangirl she was.

Possibly because it wasn't anything specific. Of course, the execution by the writers could have been handled better, but I don't think that in-universe, Tali changed for the worse.

How did she change well?

I'm far less disappointed in where she ended up than how.

Its intentions were understandable as well.

So were the geth intentions in resisting the Quarians. Did that ever stop her in ME1?

Forgive me for that text wall but my ideas for improving her are removing all signs of her liking you if you were a jerk to her( such as not giving her the data) and thus not being able to romance her. If not, then at least let other people say that Garrus had a crush on you since no one mentions Garrus but most of the entire crew mentions her crush. In fact, I think that Tali could return to how she was in ME1 while keeping all the good non-romance points from her character in ME2.  Just my beliefs. NO FLAMING PLEASE OR I'LL ASK A MOD TO CLOSE THIS THREAD! Please discuss what you think and what could be improved with her character

[Thundertactics]

I admit, the fact that she likes you regardless of the way you treat her in ME1 is a bit jarring, but this is likely just a retcon. That said, they did work it out rather nicely with Garrus, where his romance isn't available if you didn't recruit him in ME1.

But this depends on someone not treating Tali nicely, and why would you even consider doing such a thing?

[thesuperdarkone]

Thundertactics wrote...

I admit, the fact that she likes you regardless of the way you treat her in ME1 is a bit jarring, but this is likely just a retcon. That said, they did work it out rather nicely with Garrus, where his romance isn't available if you didn't recruit him in ME1.
But this depends on someone not treating Tali nicely, and why would you even consider doing such a thing?

 

Probably the same reason people kill their companions or make them hate you in Dragon Age Origins: To roleplay a certain view, see the results of having companions hate you or to play the game in a new way. In addition, the fact that you can't romance Garrus if you never had him originally is exactly what I'm asking for. If you were mean to Tali, no romance for you. That seems appropriate and not jarring to the "I hate you now I want you" attitude she now suddenly has.

Modifié par thesuperdarkone, 02 janvier 2011 - 11:53 .

[Thundertactics]

But I should add: Garrus still treats you as if you knew eachother very well regardless of previous recruitment, just an oversight, same could be said for Tali.

Additionally, minor decisions in dialogue aren't recorded in the save files, so they can't base ME2 behavior off of that.

Finally, the geth data thing isn't as big an issue as you make it out to be. Tali doesn't hate you if you don't give it, she's simply disappointed, and she still needs to find a worthy gift for her pilgrimage, hence why she needs to leave after the whole Saren ordeal is done.

(And I'm typing this on my cellphone making my responses rarher slow, and restricting me to the "Quick Reply" box, also messing up the formatting. So I'll just leave it at this for now.)

[CroGamer002]

^Well I'm pretty sure it won't be a problem in ME3.

[Mims]

To be fair, people on the ship DO mention Garrus/Shepard as being a couple even before the romance subplot begins. Kelly will respond, "You two would make a great couple!" if Femshep agrees with her after his recruitment. There's also that 'women like men with scars' line. After the first romance scene, Kasumi will comment that 'Garrus seems to really like you.' [Although she admits it's a bit hard to tell.]



You're also comparing two very different characters. Tali isn't afraid of showing emotion. She's a young girl! She'd probably be the kind of person to write Shepard+Tali forever in her trapper keeper. I always saw her crush as sort of a harmless, lovestruck kind of thing. Garrus is a lot more emotionally reserved, and even if he did have a crush on Shepard, probably would not have wanted that to get out. He doesn't want to endanger their friendship.



In addition, it might be sort of a double standard... but usually a girl expressing their crush is 'cute', and a guy expressing their crush openly could be read as 'stalking'. Hence why you tend to get a lot of women throwing themselves at Shepard, but not as many men. I believe almost all [if not all!] of Shepard's male love interests show surprise at her being interested in them.

[BigKahuna25]

While I support people expressing their views in a rational and respectful way,



No good can come of this.

[TheodoricFriede]

Ill admit that i did not like that treating her bad in ME1 had no bearing on her love for you in ME2, but thats just game limitations i think.

[lazuli]

I hope they rework her build for combat. 30 second cooldowns are no fun. I'd rather that she have Incinerate instead of Chiktikka vas Paus.

[Siansonea]

I found Tali's and Garrus' reactions to Shepard in ME2 to be odd. I was dismayed at the oversight in the instance of not having recruited Garrus in ME1, and when you run into him on Omega he acts like he worked with Shepard. I also don't like the fact that on Freedom's Progress, there isn't any variation in the way Tali acts toward Shepard based on ME1. If you gave her the geth data, she should be a lot more receptive to Shepard, and if you were a tool to her, she should be a lot more hostile. I think that might be a flaw in the save file database, maybe certain things weren't flagged. This makes me worry about Ashley and Kaidan in ME3 (and they had better be in ME3).



I'm not crazy about Tali's crush on Shepard, but I'm also not crazy about Garrus' receptivity to romance. They are dextro-amino aliens, which I imagine would make them far less likely to be attracted to humans and even asari. I imagine that the scent of turians and quarians would be unpleasant to humans and vice versa. The only aliens that make sense for humans to be attracted to and attractive to are the asari, who are clearly a closely related species to humans.

[PrinceLionheart]

Yeah, this does look a lot better.

My issue with Tali in the second game, which I've said a few times in the past, is that her romance felt like blatant fanservice for Talimancers.Not that I thought her romance was bad, but it truthfully felt like it was written with Tali's fans in mind.

• Her being totally in love with you and "hero-worshipy" despite all you may have treated her in the past.
• Having other characters (Kasumi and Kelly) talk about how you two would make a good couple.
• The romance itself being about her wanting to have sex with Shepard even though it could be hazardous to her health.

I just was a fan of the whole thing. But then again, I felt all the ME2 romances suffered from being rushed so my criticism isn't solely against Tali.

[thesuperdarkone]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Yeah, this does look a lot better.

My issue with Tali in the second game, which I've said a few times in the past, is that her romance felt like blatant fanservice for Talimancers.Not that I thought her romance was bad, but it truthfully felt like it was written with Tali's fans in mind.

• Her being totally in love with you and "hero-worshipy" despite all you may have treated her in the past.
• Having other characters (Kasumi and Kelly) talk about how you two would make a good couple.
• The romance itself being about her wanting to have sex with Shepard even though it could be hazardous to her health.

I just was a fan of the whole thing. But then again, I felt all the ME2 romances suffered from being rushed so my criticism isn't solely against Tali.

 

Yeah tell me about it. You'd think she would hate someone who was a jerk to her but no, she's still in love with the jerk of the century. Even if I were in love with some jerk, I don't think risking my health is worth it for ANY amount of sex, even if it is with my hero.

[Sashimi_taco]

Mims wrote...

To be fair, people on the ship DO mention Garrus/Shepard as being a couple even before the romance subplot begins. Kelly will respond, "You two would make a great couple!" if Femshep agrees with her after his recruitment. There's also that 'women like men with scars' line. After the first romance scene, Kasumi will comment that 'Garrus seems to really like you.' [Although she admits it's a bit hard to tell.]

You're also comparing two very different characters. Tali isn't afraid of showing emotion. She's a young girl! She'd probably be the kind of person to write Shepard+Tali forever in her trapper keeper. I always saw her crush as sort of a harmless, lovestruck kind of thing. Garrus is a lot more emotionally reserved, and even if he did have a crush on Shepard, probably would not have wanted that to get out. He doesn't want to endanger their friendship.

In addition, it might be sort of a double standard... but usually a girl expressing their crush is 'cute', and a guy expressing their crush openly could be read as 'stalking'. Hence why you tend to get a lot of women throwing themselves at Shepard, but not as many men. I believe almost all [if not all!] of Shepard's male love interests show surprise at her being interested in them.

Kaidan was a little head over heals crushing on the commander in ME1. He made a little comment on the citadel about how he understand why "everybody loves you, i mean humans". Actually i don't remember how it went at all but that was the jist of it. And he was always pretty forward with his interest in Femshep in dailogue. 

[thesuperdarkone]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

Mims wrote...

To be fair, people on the ship DO mention Garrus/Shepard as being a couple even before the romance subplot begins. Kelly will respond, "You two would make a great couple!" if Femshep agrees with her after his recruitment. There's also that 'women like men with scars' line. After the first romance scene, Kasumi will comment that 'Garrus seems to really like you.' [Although she admits it's a bit hard to tell.]

You're also comparing two very different characters. Tali isn't afraid of showing emotion. She's a young girl! She'd probably be the kind of person to write Shepard+Tali forever in her trapper keeper. I always saw her crush as sort of a harmless, lovestruck kind of thing. Garrus is a lot more emotionally reserved, and even if he did have a crush on Shepard, probably would not have wanted that to get out. He doesn't want to endanger their friendship.

In addition, it might be sort of a double standard... but usually a girl expressing their crush is 'cute', and a guy expressing their crush openly could be read as 'stalking'. Hence why you tend to get a lot of women throwing themselves at Shepard, but not as many men. I believe almost all [if not all!] of Shepard's male love interests show surprise at her being interested in them.

Kaidan was a little head over heals crushing on the commander in ME1. He made a little comment on the citadel about how he understand why "everybody loves you, i mean humans". Actually i don't remember how it went at all but that was the jist of it. And he was always pretty forward with his interest in Femshep in dailogue. 

 

The problem is that no one mentions Kaidan's crush. Imagine if Joker or Garrus mentioned that Kaidan liked you or that you would make a good couple. Having a crush is one thing but having practically everyone mention the crush and how you'd make a good couple is just weird and bit bad since romances that start like that usually work BECAUSE that crush isn't explicit and thus can create a well developed romance

[Sashimi_taco]

Siansonea II wrote...

 The only aliens that make sense for humans to be attracted to and attractive to are the asari, who are clearly a closely related species to humans.

I really do not think the asari are closely related to humans. Well, it is a fantasy world so who knows. And being dextro amino acid based does not mean you would smell bad the each other. It has been concluded by many fans that Garrus "tastes" like "liquid sugar"..... Anyway. I can see people being annoyed at bad character development, but I don't think bringing science into why two characters cannot be together is very applicable. It is a fantasy universe, none of the science in the ME world makes sense so anything is really possible. 

Or maybe i'm just a Garrus fan girl with too many clouds in my head. 

[Siansonea]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Yeah, this does look a lot better.

My issue with Tali in the second game, which I've said a few times in the past, is that her romance felt like blatant fanservice for Talimancers.Not that I thought her romance was bad, but it truthfully felt like it was written with Tali's fans in mind.

• Her being totally in love with you and "hero-worshipy" despite all you may have treated her in the past.
• Having other characters (Kasumi and Kelly) talk about how you two would make a good couple.
• The romance itself being about her wanting to have sex with Shepard even though it could be hazardous to her health.

I just was a fan of the whole thing. But then again, I felt all the ME2 romances suffered from being rushed so my criticism isn't solely against Tali.

I don't have a problem with "fanservice" per se, but it should be good fanservice that doesn't come across as fanservice. Tali and Garrus both suffer from a bit of a transparent feel to the romances. They didn't develop organically. They just feel tacked on, mainly because they are tacked on. With Garrus, you start talking about "reach and flexibility" and if you're a girl Shepard, you can basically tell him "let's shag, baby". With Tali, she starts talking about linking suit environments, and it's all rather innocent, until she notices Shepard's manly muscles and gets all fluttery and nervous. I think it's awfully irresponsible of Shepard to pursue a romance with Tali under any circumstances, frankly. Her people have a low population, and she can't have children with a human. The quarian race kinda needs all of its able-bodied young people to reproduce. Tali should totally hook up with Kal'Reeger. I mean, come on, it's Adam Baldwin. Adam Baldwin > Mark Meer. Always.

I think the Miranda and Jack romances are okay, Jacob's is terrible, and Thane's I have no idea about because I never romanced him. Compared to the Liara and Kaidan romances, though, even Miranda and Jack's felt weakly implemented, or rather briefly implemented. Simply not enough conversation. The 'sex scenes' or lack thereof are immaterial, what I want to see is a real buildup, a journey between Shepard and the LI. Kaidan's was the best in the first game, and Liara's was the best in the second game (thank you, LotSB). But with so many options, it just felt like it was Talk Three Times and Hook Up in most cases. Not very immersive. Honestly, I preferred the non-romances of Mordin and Samara to any of the ME2 romances, other than Liara's. Mordin's assumption that you want some salarian love, and Samara's regretful rejection of Paragon Shepard (and not-so-regretful rebuff of Renegade Shepard) are much more realistic and show more about their characters than anything Jacob says or does.

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

The Tali and Garrus romances actually added characterization to two characters who hardly any impact on the first game.

If you want to talk about bad fanservice look at Samara's outfit or the annoying screen obscuring ass-shots that Miranda gets.

I don't find Samara's outfit objectionable. As we saw with Matriarch Benezia, asari have different ideas about what constitutes 'too much skin' than humans do, and Matriarchs especially don't seem to mind showing off their cleavage. The younger asari seem to be more modest about their bosoms, it must be a generational thing.

[Spartas Husky]

Siansonea II wrote...

mrsph wrote...

The Tali and Garrus romances actually added characterization to two characters who hardly any impact on the first game.

If you want to talk about bad fanservice look at Samara's outfit or the annoying screen obscuring ass-shots that Miranda gets.

I don't find Samara's outfit objectionable. As we saw with Matriarch Benezia, asari have different ideas about what constitutes 'too much skin' than humans do, and Matriarchs especially don't seem to mind showing off their cleavage. The younger asari seem to be more modest about their bosoms, it must be a generational thing.

I agree with the Samara thing... they are a female only species for god sake they dont care what anyone else thinks lol....

still miranda's booty shots... point taken. now if the ones while inside the normandy no problem, the ones outside the normandy yes... I do mind those they are a distraction.

[thesuperdarkone]

mrsph wrote...

The Tali and Garrus romances actually added characterization to two characters who hardly any impact on the first game.

If you want to talk about bad fanservice look at Samara's outfit or the annoying screen obscuring ass-shots that Miranda gets.

 

Funny how you say that the Tali romance added characterization while I found the romance to add nothing to the characters unlike their loyalty quests. Garrus' added much to his character. Funny how you said that yet you're a talimancer..... Sorry if I don't expect you to have an unbiased opinion

[thesuperdarkone]

mrsph wrote...

Compared to Mass Effect where Tali was just a quarian wikipedia that didn't really do anything after you get off the citadel? Yeah, I'd say her romance and added character arcs improved her a lot. Hell, she isn't even my canon romance and I think her characterization was better than Mass Effect.

And if you want to point at me and scream "Biased opinion!" I would direct you to stare at a mirror my good chum.

 

Touche' I agree that she got a better character in ME2 but I don't think the romance was all that made her special. Her loyalty mission is one non romance example that shows improvement

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I don't find Samara's outfit objectionable. As we saw with Matriarch Benezia, asari have different ideas about what constitutes 'too much skin' than humans do, and Matriarchs especially don't seem to mind showing off their cleavage. The younger asari seem to be more modest about their bosoms, it must be a generational thing.

It's a silly thing to wear when people are shooting at you, or if you are in a hazardous enviroment. I even find it more annoying than Jack wearing nothing at all for some reason.

The asari in general just scream "male teenager fantasy" I mean c'mon, Bioware. An entire species of attractive blue space lesbians that everyone in the galaxy finds attractive and perfect and can reproduce with everything to make another one? That sounds more like something out of someone's Star Trek fanfic than it does Mass Effect!

For all we know there is a cultural reason for her outfit, or perhaps leaving some skin exposed helps her biotics work better. We simply don't know. In any case, Samara and Jack, the two most powerful biotics in the game, do not seem to be in any way hindered by their lack of bulky armor. And I find scantily-clad asari less fanservice-y than scantily clad humans. Asari are all the same gender, they wouldn't have the same ideas about nudity that humans would. I mean, when you and everyone you know has breasts, what's the point of covering them up?