225 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Compared to Mass Effect where Tali was just a quarian wikipedia that didn't really do anything after you get off the citadel? Yeah, I'd say her romance and added character arcs improved her a lot. Hell, she isn't even my canon romance and I think her characterization was better than Mass Effect.

And if you want to point at me and scream "Biased opinion!" I would direct you to stare at a mirror my good chum.

 

Touche' I agree that she got a better character in ME2 but I don't think the romance was all that made her special. Her loyalty mission is one non romance example that shows improvement

I agree with this. Tali's character development comes mainly from her loyalty mission, as it does for everyone. Unfortunately, I kind of don't sympathize with Tali's point of view in her loyalty mission. She wants Shepard to conceal evidence about what Rael'Zorah was doing to protect his 'legacy', at the expense of Tali's connection to her people. Yes, you can Paragon or Renegade your way past it, but it's absurd that her father's memory means more to her than her own status in the Migrant Fleet. Talk about screwed up priorities. It's not like she and her father were even all that close. I was seriously wtf-ing the whole time.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 03 janvier 2011 - 05:50 .

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

Children love their parents. This is unforgivable.

Not the point I was trying to make, but okay. There's no reason to devolve into snarky comebacks. Or are you just trying to get the thread locked?

My point was that Tali was being irrational, and no matter how much Shepard tried to tell her that protecting Rael'Zorah's legacy wasn't as important as her preventing her own exile, she wouldn't listen to reason. Rael'Zorah WAS a war criminal, he deserved to suffer the consequences of his foolish and irresponsible actions. The deaths of all of the quarians on the Alarei were HIS fault. And Tali wants to conceal all that? Sorry, but that goes against my sense of justice and honor. She should bear the consequences of her father's actions, not try to cover them up to protect his legacy and be a martyr in the process. That's just my opinion, of course.

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
For all we know there is a cultural reason for her outfit, or perhaps leaving some skin exposed helps her biotics work better. We simply don't know. In any case, Samara and Jack, the two most powerful biotics in the game, do not seem to be in any way hindered by their lack of bulky armor. And I find scantily-clad asari less fanservice-y than scantily clad humans. Asari are all the same gender, they wouldn't have the same ideas about nudity that humans would. I mean, when you and everyone you know has breasts, what's the point of covering them up?

The point in covering them up?

Because several of the planets you visit in Mass Effect have an atmosphere that will kill anything short of a krogan.

Biotics don't seem to have as much problem with vacuum and harsh atmosphere as non-biotics. I can't help but think that powerful biotic individuals have a low-level biotic barrier that protects them from these environments as well as, if not better than, a hardsuit or other type of environmental suit. I can't think of any other reason for the lack of discernible hazardous environment gear. I haven't seen any non-biotic individuals running around without protection of some kind.

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Not the point I was trying to make, but okay. There's no reason to devolve into snarky comebacks. Or are you just trying to get the thread locked?

My point was that Tali was being irrational, and no matter how much Shepard tried to tell her that protecting Rael'Zorah's legacy wasn't as important as her preventing her own exile, she wouldn't listen to reason. Rael'Zorah WAS a war criminal, he deserved to suffer the consequences of his foolish and irresponsible actions. The deaths of all of the quarians on the Alarei were HIS fault. And Tali wants to conceal all that? Sorry, but that goes against my sense of justice and honor. She should bear the consequences of her father's actions, not try to cover them up to protect his legacy and be a martyr in the process. That's just my opinion, of course.

Tali doesn't want her father to become an unperson. Is it the right thing to do? Probably not. But the lines blur when you are looking at someone that you love.

I understand that, but that doesn't make it right. The just thing to do is clear: accept the knowledge of her father's betrayal of the quarian people, and accept the consequences for it, rather than have herself exiled and struck from the manifests, etc., out of a sense of familial duty or martyrdom. I dislike collusion in the deception of the entire quarian society (and protecting a war criminal in the process) just to keep Tali's 'loyalty'.

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

And that is a flaw of Tali's character. That she is more loyal to her people and others than she is to herself.

All characters have flaws. It's what makes them interesting instead of making them boring Mary Sues that can do everything.

I don't see how lying to her people demonstrates any loyalty to them. She is merely shifting blame from her father to herself for immature, irrational, emotional reasons. Some people might admire her for that, but I do not.

[TheNexus]

Tali seemed very robotic in ME1 to me, to the point where she wasn't really much of a character at all. More of a Quarian database.

In ME2 we actually get to see a bit of who Tali actually is. If you pay attention, you can kind of get what Bioware does with her character, which is incredibly cool. In the same way that she is not able to get out of her suit, she has some difficulty expressing who she is and opening up to anyone, even Shepard (romance line "I never thought you'd see past...this *points to helmet*).

The reality is that the reason Tali's character is flawed (if you are trying to look at it in a different perspective from the oh so popular "Bioware messed up") is because she doesn't even really know who she is yet, and isn't comfortable sharing what little she does know about herself with anyone else, minus Shepard ("I've never trusted anyone as much as you etc.") and even then she has trouble. She's young, and going through some incredible experiences, some traumatic, that no other Quarian has gone through (killing Saren, voyaging with Shepard on the Normandy, having a father as an admiral and then losing him because of a mistake he made that jeopardized his entire species). She romances Shepard because he is a point of security for her, especially after her father dies. Regardless of whether she gets exiled or not, the experience has distanced her from the Flotilla, and without the Flotilla or her father, things become very lonely. Trusting is Shepard is only logical.

That is why I find Tali's character and story so fascinating and different from the other female crew members. Ashley, Miranda, Liara, Samara and Jack are all females who are very much in control and in touch with who they are. You don't get that sense with Tali. She is still trying to understand herself, and Shepard is part of that process.

Modifié par TheNexus, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:19 .

[Napalm Jim]

Siansonea II wrote...

I don't see how lying to her people demonstrates any loyalty to them. She is merely shifting blame from her father to herself for immature, irrational, emotional reasons. Some people might admire her for that, but I do not.

I think it might help if you took a look at this...
www.youtube.com/watch

While Tali did have a personal stake in the matter it was also important for her to keep the information of her father's war crime under wraps so that her people would remain united.  If the news becomes public, the Flotilla begins to break apart.  Sometimes telling the truth about Harvey Dent or Jebediah Springfield isn't always the best action to take.

But there is definitely more at stake her than just her father's good name.

[V-rex]

Honestly, the main problem I always had with Tali was just the fact that she was so..... perfect. The idea of this sexy and smart but shy and cute geekling is honestly almost an immature male fantasy in and of itself. The only flaws elaborated on are just the ones that make her more 'endearing'.
As Dean-The-Young said once, she basically became what the fanbase wanted her to be, rather than what she was. She's a perfect girlfriend figure one minute and then a damsel in distress who falls for Shepard the next. She breathlessly lists in her romance how amazing she thinks you are, never challenges you and frankly it comes across as stalkerish and creepy at points.
Finally, her romance just felt added in. Eight minutes of dialogue altogether from end of loyalty mission to romance scene, all repeating the same basic phrases:
"I want to have sex with you, you are so amazing."
"I'm glad that you want to have sex with me, I want to have sex with you."
*nervously* "I think so little of myself, be with someone else."
"I want you."
"I'm so nervous and shy and cute and surprisingly sexy.... DO ME!!"

Look, I mean no offence but seriously, that's how it looked to me. An idealized version of a girlfriend figure/damsel in distress. She was a lot better back when she wasn't romanceable because her sudden soft girliness overtook all other elements of her character and she became just another shy love interest, who needs to be rescued time and time again.
I like Tali, but I would like to see her be more determined and strong, and for it to be more consistant then the occassional 'bold strong stance' followed immediatley by 'fragile flower'. That's my view.

I like Tali, she's just not one of my favorites and there are problems with her that do irritate me from time to time.

Edit: Oh and she's also a virgin. Because you know, the sweet shy awkward geek who is insanely sexy and madly in love with the player is really only complete when you also get to be the guy who takes her virginity.<_<

... Seriously though, that was the last nail in the coffin that held any idea of me ever romancing Tali or thinking of her as anything other than a cute little sister.

Modifié par V-rex, 03 janvier 2011 - 12:22 .

[J4N3_M3]

V-rex wrote...

Honestly, the main problem I always had with Tali was just the fact that she was so..... perfect. The idea of this sexy and smart but shy and cute geekling is honestly almost an immature male fantasy in and of itself. The only flaws elaborated on are just the ones that make her more 'endearing'.
As Dean-The-Young said once, she basically became what the fanbase wanted her to be, rather than what she was. She's a perfect girlfriend figure one minute and then a damsel in distress who falls for Shepard the next. She breathlessly lists in her romance how amazing she thinks you are, never challenges you and frankly it comes across as stalkerish and creepy at points.
Finally, her romance just felt added in. Eight minutes of dialogue altogether from end of loyalty mission to romance scene, all repeating the same basic phrases:
"I want to have sex with you, you are so amazing."
"I'm glad that you want to have sex with me, I want to have sex with you."
*nervously* "I think so little of myself, be with someone else."
"I want you."
"I'm so nervous and shy and cute and surprisingly sexy.... DO ME!!"

Look, I mean no offence but seriously, that's how it looked to me. An idealized version of a girlfriend figure/damsel in distress. She was a lot better back when she wasn't romanceable because her sudden soft girliness overtook all other elements of her character and she became just another shy love interest, who needs to be rescued time and time again.
I like Tali, but I would like to see her be more determined and strong, and for it to be more consistant then the occassional 'bold strong stance' followed immediatley by 'fragile flower'. That's my view.

I like Tali, she's just not one of my favorites and there are problems with her that do irritate me from time to time.

Edit: Oh and she's also a virgin. Because you know, the sweet shy awkward geek who is insanely sexy and madly in love with the player is really only complete when you also get to be the guy who takes her virginity.<_<

... Seriously though, that was the last nail in the coffin that held any idea of me ever romancing Tali or thinking of her as anything other than a cute little sister.

Okay, I'm a chick. And all my Sheps have romanced everyone so far. Took a while for me to get to like one character or the other, some had to grow on me, but I worked my ways through the games a couple of times now with all kinds of romances or no romances, cheating or no cheating, bliblablubb whatever. I'm probably the opposite of the regular Talimancer and most Talimancers don't think highly of me anyway. *tips hat*

anyway, Tali to me is a bad ass chick who has a pretty snarky side and can pretty much take care of herself. hell, she's got a loaded shotgun and tells some thugs to stick it where the sun don't shine when we first meet her. When Ash refers to her as "the quarian" she's all "yo bitch, i got a name, it's Tali, got that?" - in nicer words of course but the tone of her voice makes pretty clear what she thinks of people that look down on Quarians.

Quarians in general are a very social people. They have to be. They have to share the few things they have, so it's basically community over selfishness and I don't see where this is a flaw. It's pretty awesome if you ask me. Where do you find this nowadays? Maybe that's why people see it as a flaw, because it's so god damn rare.

The romance dialogue - well for many characters actually sucked. But hey, at least everyone is on par here. Then again, if you look at it from that point of view, I mean, i'm sure you were a virgin teenager once as well and being nervous about the first time shouldn't be strange to anyone, you find someone you trust. You have feelings, they return your feelings. You feel attracted, they feel attracted. So you know, it's gonna happen and you adress your concerns so at least, you've gotten that off your chest and then you finally do it. What's unnatural about that? Maybe I'm the only one who thinks that's the way it usually happens. I'm hoping, the majority here agrees with me. :innocent:

anyway, I just kicked my train of thought off track. I shall return later to add to it. xD 

[Aeowyn]

Mims wrote...

To be fair, people on the ship DO mention Garrus/Shepard as being a couple even before the romance subplot begins. Kelly will respond, "You two would make a great couple!" if Femshep agrees with her after his recruitment. There's also that 'women like men with scars' line. After the first romance scene, Kasumi will comment that 'Garrus seems to really like you.' [Although she admits it's a bit hard to tell.]

.

I think I need to go back and speak to Kelly because I've never heard that comment. As for Kasumi, you only get that line after Shepard and Garrus have decided to go through with the thing and I guess for me it felt more natural rather than having everyone say "Garrus really likes you. He's always liked you blahblah" before the romance even happened.

As for making Tali have a crush on Shepard even in ME1.. I've never played as MaleShepard but I just think that's a bit stupid. I mean, why couldn't they just go with the whole friends turning into something more path like they did for Garrus/FemShep?

And yes, I hate the fact that they both seem to like working with you, talk about old times etc, even if you were an ass to them in ME1.

[Sandbox47]

Don't agree but don't want to troll... AAAGH! I like Tali, really, really much still...

[Xilizhra]

I don't find Samara's outfit objectionable. As we saw with Matriarch Benezia, asari have different ideas about what constitutes 'too much skin' than humans do, and Matriarchs especially don't seem to mind showing off their cleavage. The younger asari seem to be more modest about their bosoms, it must be a generational thing.

There might be something to this, given Enyala's line to Miranda about how Cerberus lets her **** around in that outfit, and Morinth's hatred for Samara's uniform.

Honestly, the main problem I always had with Tali was just the fact that she was so..... perfect. The idea of this sexy and smart but shy and cute geekling is honestly almost an immature male fantasy in and of itself. The only flaws elaborated on are just the ones that make her more 'endearing'.

Complain about Jack's romance, then. Immature male fantasy stuff abounds there too, in a much skeevier fashion.

Anyway, I think the whole "little sister" thing is overblown and I never saw her that way. Her ME1 self, maybe, but come on; she's 24 and leading science teams to dangerous places. She's quite capable of handling herself, including in romantic areas.

[J4N3_M3]

Aeowyn wrote...

Mims wrote...

To be fair, people on the ship DO mention Garrus/Shepard as being a couple even before the romance subplot begins. Kelly will respond, "You two would make a great couple!" if Femshep agrees with her after his recruitment. There's also that 'women like men with scars' line. After the first romance scene, Kasumi will comment that 'Garrus seems to really like you.' [Although she admits it's a bit hard to tell.]

.

I think I need to go back and speak to Kelly because I've never heard that comment. As for Kasumi, you only get that line after Shepard and Garrus have decided to go through with the thing and I guess for me it felt more natural rather than having everyone say "Garrus really likes you. He's always liked you blahblah" before the romance even happened.

As for making Tali have a crush on Shepard even in ME1.. I've never played as MaleShepard but I just think that's a bit stupid. I mean, why couldn't they just go with the whole friends turning into something more path like they did for Garrus/FemShep?

And yes, I hate the fact that they both seem to like working with you, talk about old times etc, even if you were an ass to them in ME1.

Well if you pull the renegade line in ME2 on Freedom's Progress when you meet Tali, her reaction can be more described as reserved confusion and being sceptical than anything which I really like by the way because c'mon, you were dead and now you just show up there.

[Alienmorph]

Aeowyn wrote...
I think I need to go back and speak to Kelly because I've never heard that comment. As for Kasumi, you only get that line after Shepard and Garrus have decided to go through with the thing and I guess for me it felt more natural rather than having everyone say "Garrus really likes you. He's always liked you blahblah" before the romance even happened.

As for making Tali have a crush on Shepard even in ME1.. I've never played as MaleShepard but I just think that's a bit stupid. I mean, why couldn't they just go with the whole friends turning into something more path like they did for Garrus/FemShep?

And yes, I hate the fact that they both seem to like working with you, talk about old times etc, even if you were an ass to them in ME1.

That's the problem with Tali, Garrus and even Liara. You can treat all of them like a piece of s**t, but then you find out that Tali is in love of you, Garrus speechs of the old times like he knew Shep since the childood and Liara start a private war with the Shadow Broker to give a chance to Shep to return to life...

But if you act as Paragon the story with Tali evolves in really good way, imoh:

First, you meet her when she's fugitive from Saren and the SB, and instead of helping her just because "she's a poor endangerd spatial nomad" you ally with her because Shepard needs desperately the proofs against Saren she found. Then you bring her on the most advanced starship of the whole Citadel's Space to fight the enemies of her species, always treating her with respect and not just like "the Quarian". Finally Shepard helps her with the pilgrimadge, but exactly because of it, and eventually of the possible rivaltry with Ash and Liara, and the risks implied in staying with an human, she remains aside, withou revealin herself.

Then Shepard dies and she spent two years of her life in the geth space and around the galaxy, always treated with indifferency by her dad, regreting her past decision. 

Finally Shepard returns, and even now he's with Cerberus, the fact that he left with her Veetor makes immediately clear that he's still the same man he knew. So finally when Shep comes to recruit her she stops to hide her feelings and we all know what happens. Also, the fact that she's again with one of the few person who cares and respect her explain why she's less cinic in ME2, aside the romance.    

As you see... the development in case of a Paragon Shep's works really really well, even retconning the crush of Tali for Shep. But I admit that's pretty odd that we achieve the same final result even treating her badly in ME1 and in the fist part of ME2.

Simply BW should have thinked about an alternative... like they did with Garrus. Even if he's still all "Just like old times, Shepard!" he can't be romanced if you didn't recruit him in the first game. It should have been the same with Tali... if you didn't gave her the Geth's data se shouldn't have been romancable... that's really the key moment for the start of the story with her imoh.

Said so, if you don't like her as romance, or you don't like her at all, no one blames you for that, until we can speak of that in a polite way.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:05 .

[Xilizhra]

It should have been the same with Tali... if you didn't gave her the Geth's data se shouldn't have been romancable... that's really the key moment for the start of the story with her imoh.

I'm not so sure about this. It takes place on a side assignment and it's quite easy to miss.

[Alienmorph]

Xilizhra wrote...

It should have been the same with Tali... if you didn't gave her the Geth's data se shouldn't have been romancable... that's really the key moment for the start of the story with her imoh.

I'm not so sure about this. It takes place on a side assignment and it's quite easy to miss.

Same as Garrus and Wrex's missions if you don't talk enough with them. And doing their quest is important for the future developing of Garrus, and without the Wrex's mission you can't avoid to kill him on Virmire withou using Paragon or Renegade dialogues. It's a general mistake that those mission were made so hidden, but they ARE important, or they should have been more at least.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Yes, but they reveal their missions and are quite explicit about it. Tali just says that she'd like geth information if it can be brought about, and the only way to find it is to search some containers at the end of the last geth incursion mission; not only that, when you find it, no one mentions it, not even Tali if she's there. And if you don't give up the info to Tali right then, it's lost forever.

[J4N3_M3]

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, the main problem I always had with Tali was just the fact that she was so..... perfect. The idea of this sexy and smart but shy and cute geekling is honestly almost an immature male fantasy in and of itself. The only flaws elaborated on are just the ones that make her more 'endearing'.

Complain about Jack's romance, then. Immature male fantasy stuff abounds there too, in a much skeevier fashion.
Anyway, I think the whole "little sister" thing is overblown and I never saw her that way. Her ME1 self, maybe, but come on; she's 24 and leading science teams to dangerous places. She's quite capable of handling herself, including in romantic areas.

actually, all the stuff in the game is based on one fantasy or the other. The sweet girl, the tattooed tough chick, the spiritual, yet sexy drell, the turian with his ideals and his sarcasm and so on. I don't see why this should be something to complain about. I mean, after all, we don't want the every day people in games and movies and books because we have every day people in our every day lives. We want something that we can relate to yet that's still different from every day stuff.

Everybody watches movies and reads books that somehow float their boats one way or the other. That's what entertainment is for.

For me all characters in the game have a side to them that hit one of my spots, it's that simple. And what one finds to be a flaw, may be a good trait to someone else.

[Evelinessa]

Aeowyn wrote...

Mims wrote...

To be fair, people on the ship DO mention Garrus/Shepard as being a couple even before the romance subplot begins. Kelly will respond, "You two would make a great couple!" if Femshep agrees with her after his recruitment. There's also that 'women like men with scars' line. After the first romance scene, Kasumi will comment that 'Garrus seems to really like you.' [Although she admits it's a bit hard to tell.]

.

I think I need to go back and speak to Kelly because I've never heard that comment. As for Kasumi, you only get that line after Shepard and Garrus have decided to go through with the thing and I guess for me it felt more natural rather than having everyone say "Garrus really likes you. He's always liked you blahblah" before the romance even happened.

As for making Tali have a crush on Shepard even in ME1.. I've never played as MaleShepard but I just think that's a bit stupid. I mean, why couldn't they just go with the whole friends turning into something more path like they did for Garrus/FemShep?

And yes, I hate the fact that they both seem to like working with you, talk about old times etc, even if you were an ass to them in ME1.

After you recruit Garrus and talk to Kelly she says something like "I just want to hold him close and tell him everything will be alright" then you can pick some option and Shepard says something like "Me too"(Not exact line but you get the point). Then Kelly says "You too would make a great couple".

Can you actually be an ass to Garrus in ME1 or ME2? Other then choosing not to recruit him and picking the paragon options?


With Tali, I don't hate her but I get annoyed how she is supposed to be so perfect and the way she is with ManShep(even though I haven't romanced her yet). Kasumi and Joker have dialogue about her after her Loyalty Mission(and Recruitment I think) when they don't for most of the other people. She is made out to have always liked ManShep. She gets an extra line or two when talking about her with Liara in LotSB that other romances don't get. Her and Jacob are the only romances that have new romance dialogue after the suicide mission. She has one of the most important Loyalty Missions in the game. And I hate that Joker pretty much has a negative comment about everyone else when you ask him about the squad but for Tali he says "Well I've always liked Tali so lets just move on" or something like that. It just seems that she got special treatment and I hate when they do that with Characters.

I never really liked her in ME1 because I got a little bored when talking with her but I liked her more in ME2. After more and more playthroughs I'm starting to like her better(same can be said for all the characters really) but she is still not one of my favorites. I'm going to romance her with this character I'm currently playing though. No matter what though I still want her to return in ME3 along with Garrus since we started this with them we might as well end this with them.