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[Aeowyn]

Evelinessa wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Mims wrote...

To be fair, people on the ship DO mention Garrus/Shepard as being a couple even before the romance subplot begins. Kelly will respond, "You two would make a great couple!" if Femshep agrees with her after his recruitment. There's also that 'women like men with scars' line. After the first romance scene, Kasumi will comment that 'Garrus seems to really like you.' [Although she admits it's a bit hard to tell.]

.

I think I need to go back and speak to Kelly because I've never heard that comment. As for Kasumi, you only get that line after Shepard and Garrus have decided to go through with the thing and I guess for me it felt more natural rather than having everyone say "Garrus really likes you. He's always liked you blahblah" before the romance even happened.

As for making Tali have a crush on Shepard even in ME1.. I've never played as MaleShepard but I just think that's a bit stupid. I mean, why couldn't they just go with the whole friends turning into something more path like they did for Garrus/FemShep?

And yes, I hate the fact that they both seem to like working with you, talk about old times etc, even if you were an ass to them in ME1.

After you recruit Garrus and talk to Kelly she says something like "I just want to hold him close and tell him everything will be alright" then you can pick some option and Shepard says something like "Me too"(Not exact line but you get the point). Then Kelly says "You too would make a great couple".

I just chose that option and she didn't say anything. Am I missing something here?

[J4N3_M3]

Evelinessa wrote...

After you recruit Garrus and talk to Kelly she says something like "I just want to hold him close and tell him everything will be alright" then you can pick some option and Shepard says something like "Me too"(Not exact line but you get the point). Then Kelly says "You too would make a great couple".

Can you actually be an ass to Garrus in ME1 or ME2? Other then choosing not to recruit him and picking the paragon options?


With Tali, I don't hate her but I get annoyed how she is supposed to be so perfect and the way she is with ManShep(even though I haven't romanced her yet). Kasumi and Joker have dialogue about her after her Loyalty Mission(and Recruitment I think) when they don't for most of the other people. She is made out to have always liked ManShep. She gets an extra line or two when talking about her with Liara in LotSB that other romances don't get. Her and Jacob are the only romances that have new romance dialogue after the suicide mission. She has one of the most important Loyalty Missions in the game. And I hate that Joker pretty much has a negative comment about everyone else when you ask him about the squad but for Tali he says "Well I've always liked Tali so lets just move on" or something like that. It just seems that she got special treatment and I hate when they do that with Characters.

I never really liked her in ME1 because I got a little bored when talking with her but I liked her more in ME2. After more and more playthroughs I'm starting to like her better(same can be said for all the characters really) but she is still not one of my favorites. I'm going to romance her with this character I'm currently playing though. No matter what though I still want her to return in ME3 along with Garrus since we started this with them we might as well end this with them.

It's not true. Joker has dialogue for every squadmate after each recruitement AND loyalty mission. So does Kasumi.

[V-rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, the main problem I always had with Tali was just the fact that she was so..... perfect. The idea of this sexy and smart but shy and cute geekling is honestly almost an immature male fantasy in and of itself. The only flaws elaborated on are just the ones that make her more 'endearing'.

Complain about Jack's romance, then. Immature male fantasy stuff abounds there too, in a much skeevier fashion.
Anyway, I think the whole "little sister" thing is overblown and I never saw her that way. Her ME1 self, maybe, but come on; she's 24 and leading science teams to dangerous places. She's quite capable of handling herself, including in romantic areas.

Actually, I found Jack's to be a lot more mature then the rest. She doesn't start of breathlessly telling Shepard how amazing he is, instead it's about tearing down emotional barriers, plus they chose a romance scene that was slow and romantic rather than just implied sex.
Seriously, if you ask me Jack's was actually the best. True there will always be a degree of fantasy pandering when it comes to romanceable characters in video games but with Tali it just felt so much more obvious.

Also, the science team stuff really doesn't enter into it, all that talk of toughness goes out the window the second she gets romanced and now suddenly she's a shy nervous teenage girl. Age nothing, she acts like one, talks like one and was done in a way to appeal to such people, she's the teenage nerd's wet dream.
All her characterization still stands, but my primary complaint was always her romance.

Plus, she fails to keep control of her team on Freedom's Progress and then gets locked in a bunker and needs rescuing on Haelstrom.
I'm not going to say she's a wimp but still she's a few steps shy of 'being able to handle herself'. Let it be clear, I don't HATE Tali, she's just not one of my major favorites and the romance did not help anything.

Modifié par V-rex, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:28 .

[J4N3_M3]

[quote]Aeowyn wrote...


After you recruit Garrus and talk to Kelly she says something like "I just want to hold him close and tell him everything will be alright" then you can pick some option and Shepard says something like "Me too"(Not exact line but you get the point). Then Kelly says "You too would make a great couple".

[/quote]

I just chose that option and she didn't say anything. Am I missing something here?

[/quote]

you only get that, if you chose to be friendly during your first conversation with Kelly. If you told her to keep it professional, she will not say it. That's how the conversation usually goes.

[Alienmorph]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but they reveal their missions and are quite explicit about it. Tali just says that she'd like geth information if it can be brought about, and the only way to find it is to search some containers at the end of the last geth incursion mission; not only that, when you find it, no one mentions it, not even Tali if she's there. And if you don't give up the info to Tali right then, it's lost forever.

From what I know it's an unsolved bug that you can't talk anymore about the datas with her if you didn't do it immediately after the mission. Also you got immediately a note in the questlog about her pilgrimadge when you aquire the datas. But I agree, it's even more hidden that Garrus and Wrex's quests. Still is an important moment, and most of the players in the two years between ME1 and 2 probably discovered of that quest.

[V-rex]

[quote]J4N3_M3 wrote...

Snip

[/quote]

Okay, I'm a chick. And all my Sheps have romanced everyone so far. Took a while for me to get to like one character or the other, some had to grow on me, but I worked my ways through the games a couple of times now with all kinds of romances or no romances, cheating or no cheating, bliblablubb whatever. I'm probably the opposite of the regular Talimancer and most Talimancers don't think highly of me anyway. *tips hat*

anyway, Tali to me is a bad ass chick who has a pretty snarky side and can pretty much take care of herself. hell, she's got a loaded shotgun and tells some thugs to stick it where the sun don't shine when we first meet her. When Ash refers to her as "the quarian" she's all "yo bitch, i got a name, it's Tali, got that?" - in nicer words of course but the tone of her voice makes pretty clear what she thinks of people that look down on Quarians.

Quarians in general are a very social people. They have to be. They have to share the few things they have, so it's basically community over selfishness and I don't see where this is a flaw. It's pretty awesome if you ask me. Where do you find this nowadays? Maybe that's why people see it as a flaw, because it's so god damn rare.

The romance dialogue - well for many characters actually sucked. But hey, at least everyone is on par here. Then again, if you look at it from that point of view, I mean, i'm sure you were a virgin teenager once as well and being nervous about the first time shouldn't be strange to anyone, you find someone you trust. You have feelings, they return your feelings. You feel attracted, they feel attracted. So you know, it's gonna happen and you adress your concerns so at least, you've gotten that off your chest and then you finally do it. What's unnatural about that? Maybe I'm the only one who thinks that's the way it usually happens. I'm hoping, the majority here agrees with me. :innocent:

anyway, I just kicked my train of thought off track. I shall return later to add to it. xD 
[/quote]

I think you missed my point, Tali was strong and authoritive in Mass Effect 1, she stopped being as much in Mass Effect 2. And I think that the romance was to blame, that was my point, her romance ruined her. She had all the tough traits and snarky attitude aspects present in the first game but now they were hideously stitched to her suddenly added cute cuddly side and to me at least, it ruined her.

I don't like hearing her whisper about feeling her skin against Shepard's, or almost whimpering about 'are you still interested'? It suddenly makes her come across as helpless and it annoyed me, not just from a feminist standpoint, from a regular standpoint. In general I find that kind of romance annoying.

Also my stance about her being a virgin was not me being annoyed about her being sensitive about being a virgin... it was the fact that they MADE her be a virgin in the first place.
There is no reason why she couldn't have had sex in the past with other Quarians and still have the risk to health be apparent, it just annoys me that they had to add to the pile of 'perfect girlfriend quirks' that Tali was becoming filled to the brim with, also be 'she's a virgin'.
No, I'm not saying that Bioware are suggesting that sweetness and innocence = virginty. But I'm just saying when you add the 'she's a virgin' among all of her cute and cuddly quirks added it always came across as a bit iffy for me.
I admit, this could be an overreaction on my part but it still puts me off.

[Evelinessa]

Aeowyn wrote...

Evelinessa wrote...


After you recruit Garrus and talk to Kelly she says something like "I just want to hold him close and tell him everything will be alright" then you can pick some option and Shepard says something like "Me too"(Not exact line but you get the point). Then Kelly says "You too would make a great couple".

I just chose that option and she didn't say anything. Am I missing something here?

I found a video. Here.

J4N3_M3 wrote...

It's not true. Joker has dialogue for every squadmate after each recruitement AND loyalty mission. So does Kasumi.

Well, when I talked to Joker after loyalty missions there were several he didn't comment about(from my memory) same thing with Kasumi except with Kasumi I noticed she didn't comment about some recruitments too.

Edit: I was ninja'd on the video .

Modifié par Evelinessa, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:29 .

[V-rex]

Also it just struck me, intentional or not, making a thread about 'improvements' for a character who is already very insanely popular is still likely going to attract a few problems later down the line.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, I found Jack's to be a lot more mature then the rest. She doesn't start of breathlessly telling Shepard how amazing he is, instead it's about tearing down emotional barriers, plus they chose a romance scene that was slow and romantic rather than just implied sex.

It's also about Shepard "saving" an emotionally broken women. At least Tali is sane throughout the entirety of the romance.

Also, the science team stuff really doesn't enter into it, all that talk of toughness goes out the window the second she gets romanced and now suddenly she's a shy nervous teenage girl. Plus, she fails to keep control of her team on Freedom's Progress and then gets locked in a bunker and needs rescuing on Haelstrom.

I'm not going to say she's a wimp but still....

Only towards Shepard. She still fights just fine and doesn't clam up around anyone other than Shepard.

[J4N3_M3]

V-rex wrote...

Actually, I found Jack's to be a lot more mature then the rest. She doesn't start of breathlessly telling Shepard how amazing he is, instead it's about tearing down emotional barriers, plus they chose a romance scene that was slow and romantic rather than just implied sex.
Seriously, if you ask me Jack's was actually the best. True there will always be a degree of fantasy pandering when it comes to romanceable characters in video games but with Tali it just felt so much more obvious.

Also, the science team stuff really doesn't enter into it, all that talk of toughness goes out the window the second she gets romanced and now suddenly she's a shy nervous teenage girl. Plus, she fails to keep control of her team on Freedom's Progress and then gets locked in a bunker and needs rescuing on Haelstrom.
I'm not going to say she's a wimp but still....

well, Jack's romance can be looked at from a different point of view as well. Since we are discussing things here, we should do that, I think.

Jack's biggest flaw is "Hey I'm tough" "I'm gonna break you" "I'm gonna kill you" "I'm gonna hurt you" and so on...when all I see is a person trying to hide her vulnerable side behind thick self-built walls. Basically her and Tali are very similar, but dealing with it in different ways. Jack is just telling everyone to eff off while Tali chooses to talk about it. Different personalities, different ways of dealing with it. Nothing wrong or right, just different.

[Dean_the_Young]

I won't for a moment dispute that most the Male Shepard ME2 romances, to put it in a frank term, suck from a number of perspectives. Not necessarily from all, and what I feel sucks may be what someone else enjoys, but a number of them have such... juvenile emphasis, like much of the rest of the game. Blatant sexalization, super-sexy-pyschiatrist Shepard who rescues everyone of his interests at least once: how 'adult' or 'mature' is the handling? It's all just so damn needy, and in a way blatantly meant to appeal to the player's ego.

Tali needs you, and only you, to be her prince charming and rescue her time and time again so that she could express her forbidden love. Jack needs you, and only you, to relearn compassion and trust and to be a giant woobie. Miranda needs you, and only you, to look past her issues and make her truly happy.

They're all set up to need you, and the player always knows, even if they don't recognize it, that the person would be worse off if Shepard didn't court them. Tali would continue to pine away from a distance for some time, just as she did for two years for a corpse, never moving out of her shell. Jack wouldn't relearn to trust or love and heal. Miranda wouldn't truly smile.

They're dependent on Shepard to be happy, and **** that as far as being good mature characterization.

See, this is why I far prefer the ME1 romances, and even more of the FemShep romances in ME2. Because they're between adults who can differentiate between want and need and can actually be happy independent of Shepard.

Ashley, Kaiden, even Liara: they don't need Shepard to change them and be with them to be happy. They're interested, yes. They show interest. But if you turn them down, they aren't doomed to remain in an unhappy state. They don't need you to 'fix' them, or 'protect' them, or anything else that they're incapable or unwilling of doing on their own. They want to be with Shepard, perhaps, but they don't need it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .

[Topographer]

This game was made for me, I seriously have chosen all the right options for everything to make perfect sense. Remember, real life has it's surprises too, so if it's realism with the relationships you want, maybe you have more than you think.

[Xilizhra]

Tali needs you, and only you, to be her prince charming and rescue her time and time again so that she could express her forbidden love. Jack needs you, and only you, to relearn compassion and trust and to be a giant woobie. Miranda needs you, and only you, to look past her issues and make her truly happy.

Jack, I'll give you. Tali and Miranda, on the other hand, are not insane and don't actually require a romance to make them happy. Despite the bisexual option for Tali being brutally chopped out, I get the feeling that she's fine with being my best friend.

[Rykoth]

There's nothing wrong with Tali. It's a matter of opinion. There's no need for a list of "improvements" for characters, when you'll have differing opinions. Characters are who they are. It, IMO, is like trying to come up with a list of improvements for characters in a book or a movie or a TV Show. It's futile, its silly, and it makes no sense. The character is written, her background, her personality, all of those are decided. You need to decide if you like the character, or you don't.

Mass Effect 1 introduced us to the various characters. We got to meet Ashley. Or Kaidan. Especially Tali and Garrus who return in ME2.

Alot of people will claim ME1 was the better game all around. I beg to disagree. I think that other then a few instances, I had almost no emotional connection with the characters. Did I feel bad when I had to make the Virmire choice? Other then shock when I first played it when ME1 launched on the 360 (of course, I had to get the PC version since I chose the PC version of ME2), I had no real emotion. I had never touched Kaidan in that playthrough as a squad member, let alone talk to him but once or twice. Other times I've played, including recently? I chat with Ash. I chat with Kaidan. I still don't feel anything. I think ME2 has superior character development. But I don't feel the need to suggest ways to improve the characters in ME1. Regardless of the setup of the development/story, they were still well written.

My point being, in ME2, they took characters we already knew in Garrus and Tali, and expanded them more. Tali in ME1 was a curious, inquisitive, relatively strong willed young woman undergoing her rite of passage. Garrus was an insecure warrior looking for something worth fighting for.

ME2, Garrus is hardened, he knows what he fights for, even if at the start its futile. Tali is a woman now, she's leading expeditions. Garrus reveals he's alot more hardened, and has an inner fire we never saw in ME1. Tali shows that despite being a woman, despite being tough and able to lead, she's still "human" in the sense that she's NOT perfect, she IS sensitive, and she DOES have insecurities.

While I agree that when it comes to female characters, the overly shy type can be a cliche, a character who is she and potentially insecure about matters of the heart is not a bad thing. She's well rounded to be so developed. Yes she can lead, and make potentially difficult choices. She does have a moral core, but she also has a blind spot. (Her father, the geth, and yes, even Shepard.) Not only that, there are parts of her that have weak defenses, IE. those emotional moments.

There is nothing to "fix" about the character. You either like them or you don't. I can't stand Jack personally, but that doesn't mean she's a bad character that needs improvements. You aren't supposed to love/adore/like every single character you're presented with.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tali needs you, and only you, to be her prince charming and rescue her time and time again so that she could express her forbidden love. Jack needs you, and only you, to relearn compassion and trust and to be a giant woobie. Miranda needs you, and only you, to look past her issues and make her truly happy.

Jack, I'll give you. Tali and Miranda, on the other hand, are not insane and don't actually require a romance to make them happy. Despite the bisexual option for Tali being brutally chopped out, I get the feeling that she's fine with being my best friend.

A character doesn't need to be insane to be saved from unhappiness or an unhappy status.

[V-rex]

Well I can certainly agree with that.

Also, to the person above the person I am posting beneath, you can call this a victory if you want but right now I'm really just too tired to think, so I'm going to fold on this whole debate.

Let it be clear though. I still think that a romance based on falling in love and trying to help someone overcome their emotional baggage is better than just listening to a shy girl falling in love but whatever, agree to disagree, I am too freaking tired to keep this up.

... Besides, I'm an Ashley fan to the core anyway so my opinion on either is kind of empty.

Anywho, goodnight.

[J4N3_M3]

Hell even Garrus is insecure about matters of the heart. Show me one person on this planet that isn't insecure when it comes to this whole feelings stuff? Basically you open up to someone and you make yourself vulnerable. That's a huge step. I'd be seriously concerned if someone was NOT insecure about making such a step. May be just my own way of thinking though...

[Dean_the_Young]

mrsph wrote...

Also why do people keep saying Tali was a better character in Mass Effect? She had hardly any personality at all in Mass Effect. Same with Garrus. They were just there.

By the virtue of contrast when present with other characters, and the emotional responses you could get out of her when you challenged her. It wasn't an extensive characterization, but she got far more chances to make any sort of position (even though her position was pretty much middle-of-the-road) than she ever got in ME2.

Infact, Garrus had far more characterization in ME1, eximplified by his constant stressing over Paragon/Renegade internal struggles and frustration. ME2 Garrus characterization was tied into two things: his revenge quest, which only repeated his characterization in ME1, and the Romance path.

[V-rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

EPIC SNIP

Thanks Dean, this explains my stance on the Mass Effect 1 Mass Effect 2 thing better than most of my other posts could. Like I said if I had to pick one from ME2 it would be Jack because I go for the tragic love sort of thing, but yes I agree Mass Effect 1 is better, at least from the standpoint that the characters aren't insanely dependant on Shepard.

Okay, now I'm going to bed for real. Just wanted to agree with Dean, okay beddy byes now... goddnight.

[V-rex]

Rykoth wrote...

There is nothing to "fix" about the character. You either like them or you don't. I can't stand Jack personally, but that doesn't mean she's a bad character that needs improvements. You aren't supposed to love/adore/like every single character you're presented with.

Ah yes, this one as well I somewhat agree with. At least as far as the idea for 'fixing' characters goes. Frankly they should stay as they were written, not tailored to fit the standards of the percentage of the people who didn't like them in the first place.

Okay now seriously.... BED.

[Xilizhra]

A character doesn't need to be insane to be saved from unhappiness or an unhappy status.

Nor would they be automatically unhappy if not romanced. I don't see Miranda's romance as being at all vital, nor do I Jacob's; neither one of them existed because they were particularly romanceable characters, they were just kinda there because, hey! These are the two beginning regular humans, you have to be able to romance them!

Tali's is somewhat more central, but she has enough to go back to even if not romanced.

[J4N3_M3]

V-rex wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

EPIC SNIP

Thanks Dean, this explains my stance on the Mass Effect 1 Mass Effect 2 thing better than most of my other posts could. Like I said if I had to pick one from ME2 it would be Jack because I go for the tragic love sort of thing, but yes I agree Mass Effect 1 is better, at least from the standpoint that the characters aren't insanely dependant on Shepard.

but that's a thing of personal preferences and not a matter of right or wrong, don't you think? 

[Evelinessa]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

It's not true. Joker has dialogue for every squadmate after each recruitement AND loyalty mission. So does Kasumi.

I went to double check myself and read Joker's and Kasumi's unique dialogue. There are a lot of missing Recruitment and Loyalty mission dialogue here.