225 réponses à ce sujet

[V-rex]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

V-rex wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

EPIC SNIP

Thanks Dean, this explains my stance on the Mass Effect 1 Mass Effect 2 thing better than most of my other posts could. Like I said if I had to pick one from ME2 it would be Jack because I go for the tragic love sort of thing, but yes I agree Mass Effect 1 is better, at least from the standpoint that the characters aren't insanely dependant on Shepard.

but that's a thing of personal preferences and not a matter of right or wrong, don't you think? 

*wakes up*

Sigh, can't a bloke sleep these days?

Yes, it is personal preference, there is no way to verify and confirm things that can't have a yes or no answer. I was agreeing with Dean's personal preference in this instance because it was another reason that I believe the Mass Effect romances were better according to my own personal preferences.
I'm not trying to present my opinions as facts, don't worry.

... I'm not Fox News. BOOSH!!!

Anyway:

[J4N3_M3]

Evelinessa wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

It's not true. Joker has dialogue for every squadmate after each recruitement AND loyalty mission. So does Kasumi.

I went to double check myself and read Joker's and Kasumi's unique dialogue. There are a lot of missing Recruitment and Loyalty mission dialogue here.

i got all dialogues in game...

[J4N3_M3]

V-rex wrote...

*wakes up*

Sigh, can't a bloke sleep these days?

Yes, it is personal preference, there is no way to verify and confirm things that can't have a yes or no answer. I was agreeing with Dean's personal preference in this instance because it was another reason that I believe the Mass Effect romances were better according to my own personal preferences.
I'm not trying to present my opinions as facts, don't worry.

... I'm not Fox News. BOOSH!!!

Anyway:

I was just asking to make sure because it seemed as if you were. Sorry, if I got that wrong. Hence why I asked though  better safe than sorry...

[ReiSilver]

I remember on my first run of ME2, getting to the "I trust you enough to link suits.. oh jeez *blush*" dialogue and thinking "Wow you're adorable Tali, if you were romance-able for femshep Garrus would have competition, gimmie a fist bump, we are BFF through and through"

Then I heard about the "Oh you swept me off me feet and saved my life, of COURSE I fell in love with you instantly" dialogue and just... that's really pandering and I really wish they hadn't gone that route. Tali's romance could have been a mutual friendship that grew into romance, but no; this is Man Shep where every woman wants to sleep with you instantly! And if they didn't? Well they were just hiding their feelings *wink wink*

Unfortunately it's a bit late to change anything, what's done is done... I just wish they hadn't.

[Evelinessa]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Evelinessa wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

It's not true. Joker has dialogue for every squadmate after each recruitement AND loyalty mission. So does Kasumi.

I went to double check myself and read Joker's and Kasumi's unique dialogue. There are a lot of missing Recruitment and Loyalty mission dialogue here.

i got all dialogues in game...

Do you mean that you got the dialogue for all the characters or all the dialogue from the wiki? Because I got all the dialogue from the wiki but I didn't get any dialogue that isn't listed there. I'll use Garrus as an example:(he stuck out for me since he is my favorite character) I didn't get any loyalty mission dialogue about him from Joker and I didn't get any recruitment or loyalty mission dialogue about him from Kasumi, just like the wiki says. There are other characters too that didn't get all loyalty/recruitment mission dialogue from both Joker and Kasumi, just like the wiki says. How did you end up getting the dialogue?

[Evelinessa]

mrsph wrote...

It's spotty. If you leave the area where Joker is after a mission he won't comment on it.

But I talk to Joker right away after every mission and if it exist in the game then why isn't it in the Wiki yet? Someone must have came across it by now.

[Evelinessa]

mrsph wrote...

Oh, that.

Yeah, I don't  think he comments on some squadmembers. Kasumi also doesn't comment on Mordin, Garrus, and Grunt's loyalty mission for some reason. Guess they couldn't think of anything.

And Kasumi doesn't comment on Garrus' recruitment too. Yeah, that's what I was thinking though, that they coudn't think of anything.

[Thundertactics]

I'd just like to elaborate on two "complaints" and how they relate to eachother in my view.

"Tali is a fangirl"
First of all, this some very poor and somewhat offensive wording, leading me to normally ignore arguements with this sentiment. But anyway, it's true to an extent, Tali has immense respect for Shepard, and she does show it. This isn't just limited to maleShep, but femShep as well. Shepard is basically a galactic hero(in), and Tali and Garrus were with him/her the whole way through, leading to both of them developing what could easily be described as reverence for him/her.

Ignoring the admittedly jarring fact that you could treat her wrong in ME1 with that simply being retconned in ME2, Shepard has been kinder and more respectful to her than anyone else. Allowing her to work on the most advanced ship in the galaxy and giving her credit for her work, potentially even providing her with the most prestigious pilgrimage gift she could ever want.

For male Shepards, this mutual respect could lead to something more in ME2, though Tali's inherent insecurity and considerably more noticeable respect might make it seem a bit one sided for some. The fact that Shepard has about as much personality as a cardboard box doesn't help either. (Though BioWare did do an admirable job in LotSB to give him/her slightly deeper inner workings, even allowing him/her to convey desires of a more extensive relationship in the future with his/her LI of choice.)

But while her continued display of reverence might make it seem a bit obsessive, I really do think that's hugely exaggerated. Yes, she does mention Shepard in her voice diaries on Haestrom, so what? She recently discovered Shepard was alive, and she's starting to relive past moments; that's nostalgia, mixed with, again, respect.
Then there's the related "issue" of people informing male Shepard that Tali is attracted to him. Again, so what? People aren't allowed to have feelings for eachother? It wasn't as if this came out of nowhere, if you were actually interested in Tali, you might've taken her constant praise and respect as hints to such feelings. The other crewmembers are merely confirming it in that case.

On the other hand, Shepard might be oblivious to those feelings, in which case it could come as a bit of a shock. But it should still be possible to deduce how they came to be.

But yeah, there we go, Tali has feelings for maleShep, deal with it. But to what extent? Her seemingly one-sided respect and continuous assertions might lead to people perceiving it as a crush, and that would be perfectly reasonable to assume, even moreso if you/your Shepard doesn't have those same feelings.

However, this brings me to the next "issue": "Tali is a virgin"
I can see how this, independetly, can be considered a sign of intentionally catering to a particular male fantasy. This is what happened with Liara in ME1; which, combined with the fact that the entire asari race is basically fanservice and her considerably lacking characterization, lead to her being rather unappealing for me.

This isn't the case with Tali, it's all about the context. Tali isn't a virgin because she was secluded from the outside world, or because she's too shy and nervous. (The latter being traits people seem to associate for her, even though it's only reserved to very particular parts of the romance, where it's understandable she'd have them. As others have already explained.) She is a virgin because she chose to be, in her own words: She never trusted anyone enough to share herself in such a way.
Now, this is important, Tali being a virgin isn't (just) part of the male fantasy, it's used to show the extent of her trust and love for Shepard.

Modifié par Thundertactics, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:32 .

[PrinceLionheart]

V-rex wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, the main problem I always had with Tali was just the fact that she was so..... perfect. The idea of this sexy and smart but shy and cute geekling is honestly almost an immature male fantasy in and of itself. The only flaws elaborated on are just the ones that make her more 'endearing'.

Complain about Jack's romance, then. Immature male fantasy stuff abounds there too, in a much skeevier fashion.
Anyway, I think the whole "little sister" thing is overblown and I never saw her that way. Her ME1 self, maybe, but come on; she's 24 and leading science teams to dangerous places. She's quite capable of handling herself, including in romantic areas.

Actually, I found Jack's to be a lot more mature then the rest. She doesn't start of breathlessly telling Shepard how amazing he is, instead it's about tearing down emotional barriers, plus they chose a romance scene that was slow and romantic rather than just implied sex.
Seriously, if you ask me Jack's was actually the best. True there will always be a degree of fantasy pandering when it comes to romanceable characters in video games but with Tali it just felt so much more obvious.

Honestly, I always felt Jack's was the romance that suffered the most for being rushed. She goes from Anti-Social to super emotional girl at the drop of a hat.

But back on topic, Tali's romance was the only aspect that bugged me about her. She had some of the best missions in the game.

[J4N3_M3]

also, there are still people who don't have sex just for the cause of having sex but because it means more to them. I can see that Tali is that kind of girl that doesn't just give herself to every guy that comes along. To her it must mean something to begin with. So I actually like the fact that she's a virgin after all. She needs trust for it. And I don't see where this should be a bad thing. I actually think it's pretty cool.

Same with Jack... I like that she's the tough one. And she's pretty obvious in everything, at least for me. I think every character has their good and their bad sides and that's what I like about them. Personally though I wish that Shepard's behaviour would have consequences, like if you do something your team doesn't agree with, I wish they would at least voice their opinions about it. But somehow it often just seems that whatever you do, it's fine with everyone most of the time.

[J4N3_M3]

PrinceLionheart wrote...
Honestly, I always felt Jack's was the romance that suffered the most for being rushed. She goes from Anti-Social to super emotional girl at the drop of a hat.

well not quite. I mean, the moment you tell her that you are serious about your feelings for her, she tells you to leave her alone so she can think about it. Depending on how much time you take with the rest  of your missions, that can be quite some time until the final romance scene where it's pretty obvious that she is still very torn about it if it's the right thing to do or not.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

A character doesn't need to be insane to be saved from unhappiness or an unhappy status.

Nor would they be automatically unhappy if not romanced. I don't see Miranda's romance as being at all vital, nor do I Jacob's; neither one of them existed because they were particularly romanceable characters, they were just kinda there because, hey! These are the two beginning regular humans, you have to be able to romance them!
Tali's is somewhat more central, but she has enough to go back to even if not romanced.

Vital in the sense of 'they will die and/or be forever unhappy?' No. In the sense of 'they will be unhappy for an indefinite amount time if you don't intervene, and it's repeatedly implied that only a saint like Shepard could get through to them and past their defenses'? Yes.

[Dean_the_Young]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

V-rex wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

EPIC SNIP

Thanks Dean, this explains my stance on the Mass Effect 1 Mass Effect 2 thing better than most of my other posts could. Like I said if I had to pick one from ME2 it would be Jack because I go for the tragic love sort of thing, but yes I agree Mass Effect 1 is better, at least from the standpoint that the characters aren't insanely dependant on Shepard.

but that's a thing of personal preferences and not a matter of right or wrong, don't you think? 

Right or wrong, I can certainly call it weak, catering to unsightly desires, and roughly handled. And I could even be objectively right, whether you like the relationship as presented or not.

[Dean_the_Young]

Thundertactics wrote...

For male Shepards, this mutual respect could lead to something more in ME2, though Tali's inherent insecurity and considerably more noticeable respect might make it seem a bit one sided for some.

Here's a crux of a problem you built a wall of text around: In ME1, Tali didn't have inherent insecurity issues. They invented a character trait that they had never supported.

Tali was very secure in who she was (as a Quarian) and in what she believed (the Quarians were not wrong, the Geth are bad, and I won't bow down to your view Shepard). While she was young and unexposed, at the same time over the course of conversations it was emphasized that the Pilgramige was reaffirming things and views she already had, making her appreciate her people more. She might not have had many chances to share her views, but there were no themes about not believing in herself or faltering beliefs.

Tali's insecurity issues were invented in ME2, and served no significant purpose outside of giving players an impulse to support and protect her. It was a naked sympathy plot, similar to how in Samara's loyalty mission they found apparently the one young moderately attractive female innocent in all of Omega to be Morinth's victim, as opposed to some exotic and excitingly dangerous mercenary who most people wouldn't have sympathized with.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 janvier 2011 - 05:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

A character doesn't need to be insane to be saved from unhappiness or an unhappy status.

Nor would they be automatically unhappy if not romanced. I don't see Miranda's romance as being at all vital, nor do I Jacob's; neither one of them existed because they were particularly romanceable characters, they were just kinda there because, hey! These are the two beginning regular humans, you have to be able to romance them!
Tali's is somewhat more central, but she has enough to go back to even if not romanced.

Vital in the sense of 'they will die and/or be forever unhappy?' No. In the sense of 'they will be unhappy for an indefinite amount time if you don't intervene, and it's repeatedly implied that only a saint like Shepard could get through to them and past their defenses'? Yes.

So you mean to say that those in a romantic relationship can be made happier than they would otherwise be if they weren't in one? Shock and horror.

[Thundertactics]

Of course, ME1 Tali wouldn't be insecure about her very first relationship, that's ridiculous. (Also, it's far from the crux of my arguement, I already mentioned how the whole "Tali is insecure" is only a very specific part of her romance. Which people with a very limited attention span and memory seem to consider part of the rest of her character.)

Modifié par Thundertactics, 03 janvier 2011 - 05:07 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

A character doesn't need to be insane to be saved from unhappiness or an unhappy status.

Nor would they be automatically unhappy if not romanced. I don't see Miranda's romance as being at all vital, nor do I Jacob's; neither one of them existed because they were particularly romanceable characters, they were just kinda there because, hey! These are the two beginning regular humans, you have to be able to romance them!
Tali's is somewhat more central, but she has enough to go back to even if not romanced.

Vital in the sense of 'they will die and/or be forever unhappy?' No. In the sense of 'they will be unhappy for an indefinite amount time if you don't intervene, and it's repeatedly implied that only a saint like Shepard could get through to them and past their defenses'? Yes.

So you mean to say that those in a romantic relationship can be made happier than they would otherwise be if they weren't in one? Shock and horror.

As I took care to note and mentioned in my previous post that was something I specifically separated between the quality of the ME1 and ME2 Male-Shep romances.

In ME1 romances, the partner is someone who will be happier with Shepard, but is not unhappy without him/her. Shepard is a booster to their quality of life.

In ME2 romances, the partner is someone who will only be happier with Shepard to 'fix' their problem/block, and without him are on a continued and unchanging track of depicted various levels of misery/unhappiness.

[Dean_the_Young]

Thundertactics wrote...

Of course, ME1 Tali wouldn't be insecure about her very first relationship, that's ridiculous. (Also, it's far from the crux of my arguement, I already mentioned how the whole "Tali is insecure" is only a very specific part of her romance. Which people with a very limited attention span and memory seem to consider part of the rest of her character.)

You can address what I actually wrote, you can drop the passive-aggressive attitude, or perferably you can do both. Otherwise, why reply?

[Xilizhra]

continued and unchanging track of depicted various levels of misery/unhappiness.

Vital in the sense of 'they will die and/or be forever unhappy?' No.

Right.

Anyway, Miranda's talking to her sister again, and Tali... well, canonically in my case, she's quite happy to just be serving with me and doesn't want a romantic relationship, so it's all good. Heck, Kaidan in ME1 comes on more strongly than Tali does.

[Aeowyn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

A character doesn't need to be insane to be saved from unhappiness or an unhappy status.

Nor would they be automatically unhappy if not romanced. I don't see Miranda's romance as being at all vital, nor do I Jacob's; neither one of them existed because they were particularly romanceable characters, they were just kinda there because, hey! These are the two beginning regular humans, you have to be able to romance them!
Tali's is somewhat more central, but she has enough to go back to even if not romanced.

Vital in the sense of 'they will die and/or be forever unhappy?' No. In the sense of 'they will be unhappy for an indefinite amount time if you don't intervene, and it's repeatedly implied that only a saint like Shepard could get through to them and past their defenses'? Yes.

So you mean to say that those in a romantic relationship can be made happier than they would otherwise be if they weren't in one? Shock and horror.

As I took care to note and mentioned in my previous post that was something I specifically separated between the quality of the ME1 and ME2 Male-Shep romances.

In ME1 romances, the partner is someone who will be happier with Shepard, but is not unhappy without him/her. Shepard is a booster to their quality of life.

In ME2 romances, the partner is someone who will only be happier with Shepard to 'fix' their problem/block, and without him are on a continued and unchanging track of depicted various levels of misery/unhappiness.

I'm assuming you only mean the romances for Male Sheps in this case. If you're talking about the loyalty missions, then that's just BioWares fault. Personally, the way I see it with Garrus and Shep (because that's who I always romance) they're friends, and the thought of getting into something more doesn't occur to Garrus until Shepard mentions it.

Also, no idea about Ash because I've only been friends with her, but isn't Liara someone who needs fixing as well? Sort of.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

continued and unchanging track of depicted various levels of misery/unhappiness.

Vital in the sense of 'they will die and/or be forever unhappy?' No.

Right.

The two are not in contradiction, Xil.

Anyway, Miranda's talking to her sister again, and Tali... well, canonically in my case, she's quite happy to just be serving with me and doesn't want a romantic relationship, so it's all good. Heck, Kaidan in ME1 comes on more strongly than Tali does.

And? I don't think the issue was ever that Tali showed interest.

Infact, the way in which she does(n't) is reflective of the greater issue taken with how her romance was handled as if it were some Japanese romance sim, and not something between adults in their twenties and thirties.

[J4N3_M3]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thundertactics wrote...

For male Shepards, this mutual respect could lead to something more in ME2, though Tali's inherent insecurity and considerably more noticeable respect might make it seem a bit one sided for some.

Here's a crux of a problem you built a wall of text around: In ME1, Tali didn't have any inherent insecurity issues. They invented a flaw that didn't exist.

She was very secure in who she was (as a Quarian) and in what she believed (the Quarians were not wrong, the Geth are bad, and I won't bow down to your view Shepard). She might not have had many chances to share her views, but there were no themes about not believing in herself or faltering beliefs.

Tali's insecurity issues were invented in ME2, and served no significant purpose outside of giving players an impulse to support her.

It is one thing to know who you are but a whole other story when it comes to love. I mean, after all it's not just telling a guy she has feelings for him but it's also a guy from a different species. She has no idea if he might feel attracted to her or not. I think that's only natural...

[Xilizhra]

The two are not in contradiction, Xil.

So the problem is romancing people who are currently unhappy?