225 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Aeowyn wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As I took care to note and mentioned in my previous post that was something I specifically separated between the quality of the ME1 and ME2 Male-Shep romances.

In ME1 romances, the partner is someone who will be happier with Shepard, but is not unhappy without him/her. Shepard is a booster to their quality of life.

In ME2 romances, the partner is someone who will only be happier with Shepard to 'fix' their problem/block, and without him are on a continued and unchanging track of depicted various levels of misery/unhappiness.

I'm assuming you only mean the romances for Male Sheps in this case.

Indeed, as I've mentioned more than once.

If you're talking about the loyalty missions, then that's just BioWares fault. Personally, the way I see it with Garrus and Shep (because that's who I always romance) they're friends, and the thought of getting into something more doesn't occur to Garrus until Shepard mentions it.

You can look at all sorts of sexual dynamisms between the various romances, and you don't need to be an ultra-feminist to see some common stereotypes indulged, about social ideals (and stereotypes) of men and woman.

In ME2, when Male Shepard makes a move, he's always the instigator, and always to someone who's prior showed no interest in him, and yet is always open to the advances as Shepard pushes against their initial barriers (denial/allofness/distrust) to find true love. The nigh-comic book ideal of strong, assertive man asserting and pushing his interest against nominally assertive independent women, only to unvariably press through their minds/concerns and in the end becoming central to their happiness going forward, with the independent woman willingly becoming de-independent as a result.


Compare that to the ideals cast in the ME FemShep romances, where FemShep is always the instigator of each romance, and strong, independent men who showed no prior interest are nearly instantly interested, but never risk being portrayed as dominant in the relationship.



The male romances cater to a fasmile of what they thought most men find ideal. Female romances chater to what a perceived female ideal.

(But at least the femShep romances aren't as blatantly sexualized and hyped up. They remain far more tasteful in the buildup.)

Also, no idea about Ash because I've only been friends with her, but isn't Liara someone who needs fixing as well? Sort of.

Fixing? No. She's young and she's inexperienced, and I wouldn't say she coped with Shepard's death as well as she should have, but that's reflected in the first two traits.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

The two are not in contradiction, Xil.

So the problem is romancing people who are currently unhappy?

No, the problem is writing characters who are and will remain unhappy unless they are romanced by the player.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The two are not in contradiction, Xil.

So the problem is romancing people who are currently unhappy?

No, the problem is writing characters who are and will remain unhappy unless they are romanced by the player.

So then, it would seem to follow that what you'd want is either to not romance an unhappy person, or have them remain unhappy even if you do romance them.

[Thundertactics]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You can address what I actually wrote, you can drop the passive-aggressive attitude, or perferably you can do both. Otherwise, why reply?

I adressed the very kernel of your post, an arguement I found sorely lacking in depth and largely based on generalizations and falsehoods, hence my somewhat disrespectful stance.
I'm having difficulty taking any of the problems posed in this thread seriously, but try to discuss them regardless, because I feel that these theories should not exist in a vacuum, should they continue to gain support.

Your continuous claims of dependence from the characters on Shepard are poor, in my opinion. Because you seem to associate their "dependence" as one and the same thing.

Tali has feelings for Shepard, these are not actively initiated by Shepard himself, he does not even have to participate in the romance for them to exist. Things like these happen in the real world. Yes, she would be happier if you romance her, but by no extent would she feel incredibly bad if she isn't romanced. She even prepares for such an event, hence her suprise and insecurity.

Miranda has some issues, but these are not extremely severe, nor is it absolutely required for you to romance her to resolve them to some extent.

I'll give you Jack, but even then, you are able to help her without romancing her. Just not as much as many wish to, myself included.

These aren't the same thing, characters are more complex than a single "Happy/Unhappy" switch. And it's only logical that they would be happier if they were in an active, and enjoyable relationship, that's the whole point.

edit:

mrsph wrote...

The problem is you guys keep trying to rationalize the romances as a relationship that happens in real life. Every single one of the romances is resolved in 2-3 conversations and that person suddenly loves you and no longer desires to question the logic of the almighty Shepard. Tali isn't the only character to suffer from this. every character suffers from this. Because there is only so much time you can devote to a specific character.

And this, of course.
These characters don't get the opportunity to develop the way they would in a book, or even a romance movie. Their romance is merely a sub-plot, and tends to lack depth as a result.

Modifié par Thundertactics, 03 janvier 2011 - 05:49 .

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I don't see how lying to her people demonstrates any loyalty to them. She is merely shifting blame from her father to herself for immature, irrational, emotional reasons. Some people might admire her for that, but I do not.

I really don't see how not wanting her father to be erased from her people's history is considered immature. Irrational and emotional? Sure, I can agree with that. But an immature person would have just sold Rael out and went on their merry way. It takes someone with a lot of guts to willingly destroy their own reputation.

Where you see guts, I see a flagrant disregard for justice, and due to purely personal motivations. Just a difference of perspective, I suppose.

[Thundertactics]

Siansonea II wrote...

Where you see guts, I see a flagrant disregard for justice, and due to purely personal motivations. Just a difference of perspective, I suppose.

This would be the case if it were just that.

If you do give the evidence, not only does the report mention Tali is traumatized; if you talk with her afterwards, she mentions how the Flotilla is splitting up, one half trying to broker peace with the geth, the other going to war. Almost certainly dooming the entire quarian race to extinction.

And even then, the girl loved her father. Rael had difficulty showing his love, but should the evidence be presented and Rael be made an unperson, every time Rael neglected his daughter for the sake of his work would be negated. Tali would have nothing left to remember him by. Yes, these are personal motivations, but respectable ones nontheless.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The two are not in contradiction, Xil.

So the problem is romancing people who are currently unhappy?

No, the problem is writing characters who are and will remain unhappy unless they are romanced by the player.

So then, it would seem to follow that what you'd want is either to not romance an unhappy person, or have them remain unhappy even if you do romance them.

Alas, it would not, and I'm embarassed you would think so when I've already pointed out alternative actions I find superior.

Put peopleon the track to be genuinely happy without needing to screw them.

I mean, we only do that for the entire male half of the crew. Garrus gets control of his own life and moves on. Thane comes to term with his end and his life and has hope. Jacob... well, Jacob just puts old ghosts to rest. All that is if you don't romance them.


If you don't romance Tali, she's still going to be pining for you as she did for two years, death, and an indeterminate number of relationships (and treatment) on Shepard's part. She can eventually move on, but then she didn't if you denied her pilgrimage data, died, sent Veetor to Cerberus, let Kal'Reegor kill himself, and regardless of anything but her loyalty mission. Her level of not-happy, not moved-on is lower, but no less present.

If you don't romance Miranda, she's still going to have just one emotional bright spot (her sister), still going to be pretty much unconnectable for even other good men, and still not going to smile genuinely, which is the general consensus of everyone who remarks about her post-romance. That she's actually happy in some other respect.

If you don't romance Jack, she's still going to carry on her extreme trust issues and lack the sort of stable relationship to 'get better' (Shepard's views, apparently) that only romanced-Jack receives.

[Dean_the_Young]

mrsph wrote...

The problem is you guys keep trying to rationalize the romances as a relationship that happens in real life. Every single one of the romances is resolved in 2-3 conversations and that person suddenly loves you and no longer desires to question the logic of the almighty Shepard. Tali isn't the only character to suffer from this. every character suffers from this. Because there is only so much time you can devote to a specific character.

And that's no less of a flaw, or any more of an excuse for poor handling. 'The mechanisms suck' is not a defense for 'they way it was done is bad.' All it means is that the mechanisms for telling the intent were bad AND what they told was bad. It doesn't make what they put out any better.

You could get more than 2-3 conversations with your crew in ME1. Not only that, you could get more than 2-3 relatively long conversations, as well as a good number of points in which characters could interact and share their positions. Not only did Bioware prove it could put more effort in it's prequel for characterization opportunities, it did. Not only in the prequel, but in other products (DA) as well.

Bioware has well demonstrated it can give good characterization and character development. If it doesn't, that's it's own fault.

[Beerfish]

You can easily rationalize a kind of hero worship and one person falling for another that does not treat them well in real life. It happens all the time and is by no means a stretch in terms of 'real life romances'.

[Dean_the_Young]

Beerfish wrote...

You can easily rationalize a kind of hero worship and one person falling for another that does not treat them well in real life. It happens all the time and is by no means a stretch in terms of 'real life romances'.

Indeed.

Is this in dispute, though?

[Pyrate_d]

I feel like it's basically pointless to bring up "hero worship" when the game is 100% based around the player (shepard). Because of this, everything revolves around shepard. It's not as if other relationships he has are exactly realistic--they're awfully realistic for a video game, but that's saying very little.



People should stop with the term "fan-service," since a product is almost by definition fan-service. If you want to experience "art for art's sake," go read some self-published books.

[Rykoth]

People need to stop saying "ME1 Tali" as if the two are different.



OF COURSE ME1 Tali isn't insecure. She's not in love with Shepard. She's on her Pilgrimage, and let's face it, Saren is a pressing matter. However, and I'm doing this now with an ME1 playthrough, if you keep talking to her with each mission, its obviously implied by dialogue she's growing some serious respect for Shepard. Count the fact that, if you're gonna base it off of real life, there's probably a ton more conversation happening between the crew that we don't see, it's not unreasonable to assume that as the ME1 story progresses, feelings start building, but very subtle ones.



We don't know what Shepard's doing between ME1's end, and the start of ME2 when the Collector Ship attacked Normady Version 1. We don't know what happened.



I know people who are tough as rock for the most part, but when you throw a member of the opposite gender in their path that they like, they crumble, and become more like jelly. Why is it wrong for Tali to be like that?

[Aedan_Cousland]

I look it at it like this:

The conversations with your squadmates aren't necessarily the only conversations Shepard has with them. The conversations Shepard has with them in game are just the ones portrayed on screen, just as in a movie or a novel we are only seeing snapshots of the characters, rather than every waking minute of their day.

The proof of this is that you also never see Shepard eat, sleep, use the bathroom (thank god) or wash. You are only seeing shapshots of his life, and chances are he's also interacting with the crew during those loading screens when the Normandy is in transit for hours, days, or maybe even weeks, and we aren't following what's going on in the ship.

[Sorrel]

I dunno but I might be a bit more willing to really take to heart what the OP said if they spelled the protagonist's name correctly (it is not spelled 'Shepherd,' that is the profession) and put commas and periods in their writing. It's very hard to read!



That said... I don't see there being a problem with Tali being a bit head-over-heels in Shepard's direction. She's a young woman and he's a dashing, galaxy-saving Commander. Yes, she's a capable heroine herself, but is it really a bad thing to fall in love?



Also I've never heard of Garrus having a crush on FShep. I know Kelly remarks 'You two would make a cute couple!' but that's as far as I've heard it go.



I like Tali the way she is. I'm looking forward to any character growth she might experience in Bioware's hands. I really don't get the whole GUHHH TALI IS LAME thing lately.

[Siansonea]

Thundertactics wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Where you see guts, I see a flagrant disregard for justice, and due to purely personal motivations. Just a difference of perspective, I suppose.

This would be the case if it were just that.

If you do give the evidence, not only does the report mention Tali is traumatized; if you talk with her afterwards, she mentions how the Flotilla is splitting up, one half trying to broker peace with the geth, the other going to war. Almost certainly dooming the entire quarian race to extinction.

And even then, the girl loved her father. Rael had difficulty showing his love, but should the evidence be presented and Rael be made an unperson, every time Rael neglected his daughter for the sake of his work would be negated. Tali would have nothing left to remember him by. Yes, these are personal motivations, but respectable ones nontheless.

Well, if the quarian race has to be lied to in order to keep them together, how strong is their society? A few words from a human are enough to split them apart? Sounds like a weak society to me. From what I can tell, those quarian generals are all rather unstable, especially Daro'Xen. She's a megalomaniac-in-training if I ever saw one. I will not be surprised if she ends up in Shepard's crosshairs in ME3.

Besides, Tali and Shepard don't have any way of knowing beforehand what the consequences of their actions will be. Shepard is presented with the choice of acquiescing to the wishes of a grieving young woman or telling the truth and exposing a war criminal. Tali simply wishes to protect her father's memory, which is admirable—to an extent. There's no skirting the issue that Rael'Zorah was performing dangerous and ethically questionable experiments on sentient lifeforms, albeit synthetic ones. The quarians have clear laws and ethical guidelines about such research, but he knowingly and deliberately flouted them. Apparently Rael'Zorah was so certain that only he could solve the geth problem that he felt he was above the law. That was a foolish mistake, one that cost the lives of every quarian on the Alarei. I keep thinking of that message from the female researcher, telling her child to "be strong for Daddy". Her blood is on Rael'Zorah's hands, and yet Tali will tell you that it's in everyone's best interest that Rael'Zorah NOT be held accountable for her death and the deaths of the others. I simply disagree with that viewpoint. If a family member of mine committed treason, I would not think it was admirable to stand by them, or worse, take the blame for them. That's simply the way I see the matter.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 03 janvier 2011 - 10:15 .

[Siansonea]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The two are not in contradiction, Xil.

So the problem is romancing people who are currently unhappy?

No, the problem is writing characters who are and will remain unhappy unless they are romanced by the player.

So then, it would seem to follow that what you'd want is either to not romance an unhappy person, or have them remain unhappy even if you do romance them.

Alas, it would not, and I'm embarassed you would think so when I've already pointed out alternative actions I find superior.

Put peopleon the track to be genuinely happy without needing to screw them.

I mean, we only do that for the entire male half of the crew. Garrus gets control of his own life and moves on. Thane comes to term with his end and his life and has hope. Jacob... well, Jacob just puts old ghosts to rest. All that is if you don't romance them.


If you don't romance Tali, she's still going to be pining for you as she did for two years, death, and an indeterminate number of relationships (and treatment) on Shepard's part. She can eventually move on, but then she didn't if you denied her pilgrimage data, died, sent Veetor to Cerberus, let Kal'Reegor kill himself, and regardless of anything but her loyalty mission. Her level of not-happy, not moved-on is lower, but no less present.

If you don't romance Miranda, she's still going to have just one emotional bright spot (her sister), still going to be pretty much unconnectable for even other good men, and still not going to smile genuinely, which is the general consensus of everyone who remarks about her post-romance. That she's actually happy in some other respect.

If you don't romance Jack, she's still going to carry on her extreme trust issues and lack the sort of stable relationship to 'get better' (Shepard's views, apparently) that only romanced-Jack receives.

Interesting take. It just goes to show that for the most part, the female LIs are all more or less "damaged goods" compared to the male LIs. Kaidan, Garrus, Thane and Jacob all have family issues, but nothing debilitating. Liara, Ashley, Miranda, Jack and Tali are a different story. The one with the healthiest family dynamic is probably Ashley, every one of the other females come from a severely screwed up family (especially Liara, Miranda and Jack).

I rather dislike the idea of these women having a life-altering catharsis due to Shepard making sweet, sweet love to them, to be honest. Liara and Ashley don't bother me as much, because it seems like asari have different relationships with their parents than humans do (especially after the child reaches maturity), and Ashley doesn't have any psychological defects aside from some ignorance and distrust toward non-humans. Miranda and Tali have full-blown Daddy Issues, and Jack's background is unimaginably traumatic.

I can't imagine Jack being able to truly heal, ever. She's simply too damaged. Sure, she tearfully embraces ManShepard, but how long will that last? Her underlying psychosis will emerge again.

With Miranda, I don't think she's 'in love' with Shepard. I think she's hot for him, and appreciates his help with Oriana, but doesn't expect the relationship to last. She expects their foray through the Omega 4 relay to be a one-way trip, after all. It remains to be seen what her take on the relationship is after witnessing the succesful completion of the Suicide Mission.

Tali's romance has an expiration date as well, whether she wants to admit it or not. Eventually her immune system will adjust to Shepard Cooties, but she still can't have a child with Shepard. Yes, they could adopt, do surrogates, in vitro, etc., but there are still issues with that. Is Shepard prepared to raise a quarian child? Is Tali prepared to raise a human child? They don't know what they're getting into, honestly.

Ashley has a bug up her butt about Shepard working with Cerberus, but I think that will blow over once Shepard shows up having kicked Collector azz and taken Collector names. Especially if Shepard disses TIM and goes solo. Ashley could come around. They could make a go of it.

Liara and Shepard could also make a go of it, she's a very resilient and determined woman, and very resourceful. She's an asari, I'm sure she's lost enough salarian friends over the decades that she understands the inevitability of losing a human mate at some point, and I think she's wise enough to have realistic expectations about such a relationship. Liara is a Maiden, though, she's not ready to have kids yet, and probably won't be until after Shepard has been dead for a century or more.

[Addai]

What puts me off both Tali and Liara is the combination of saccharine sweetness and cute with tones of clingy/ needy.  It's the same dynamic that makes me want to fireball Leliana.

However, the same things are probably what is attractive for other people, so it's just a personality thing.  You don't get a Morrigan in the bunch except for Jack, and her romance is iffy too IMO in that it develops so quickly from such an extreme background.

[Siansonea]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Why is it paramount that Tali and Shep have kids? I don't understand. And even if all that is true and there is an expiration date on all these relationships, what difference does it make? This is a story and drama and conflict are interesting. I'm not really out to fine true virtual love. I'm out to see stuff that doesn't and can't happen in real life. To explore other eventualities. In that context, stable and smooth is actually pretty boring.  

I don't think the relationships have expiration dates neccesarily either, and I don't think tremendous complications make them poor quality.  I think it makes them interesting.  Shepard, depending on their background isn't exactly smooth and stable either.  What if you have a crazy messed up Colonist/Torfan Shepard like mine?  She's not compatible with Kaidan, Liara, or Thane at all.  I think she would drive Jacob insane.  I don't think any of the females are compatible with my main dudeshep but Tali either.

This game is about roleplaying.  I don't think Shepard is a static enough entity to say for certain that he or she absolutely could not work for any given LI.  Depends on the specific Shepard.

This brings up an interesting point. I wish the game would close off the possibility of romance with certain characters depending on Shepard's Paragon/Renegade score. I can't see Jack really going for an über-Paragon Shepard, for example, and I can't see Kaidan or Ashley overlooking the actions of a Shepard with a very high Renegade score. Some characters could walk the line, like Miranda, Garrus and Tali, but for some characters Shepard's personality would be a definite turnoff if it was diametrically opposed to their own.

[Siansonea]

Addai67 wrote...

What puts me off both Tali and Liara is the combination of saccharine sweetness and cute with tones of clingy/ needy.  It's the same dynamic that makes me want to fireball Leliana.

However, the same things are probably what is attractive for other people, so it's just a personality thing.  You don't get a Morrigan in the bunch except for Jack, and her romance is iffy too IMO in that it develops so quickly from such an extreme background.

This is the crux of the whole issue. A person's tastes affect how they perceive and respond to the characters. In a sense, it's a bit pointless to 'improve' a character that you don't like, since such an improvement would no doubt lessen the appeal for a player who already likes that character the way he/she is.

[ReiSilver]

Siansonea II wrote...

This brings up an interesting point. I wish the game would close off the possibility of romance with certain characters depending on Shepard's Paragon/Renegade score. I can't see Jack really going for an über-Paragon Shepard, for example, and I can't see Kaidan or Ashley overlooking the actions of a Shepard with a very high Renegade score. Some characters could walk the line, like Miranda, Garrus and Tali, but for some characters Shepard's personality would be a definite turnoff if it was diametrically opposed to their own.

I'd only dissagree with Jack being turned off my a paragon, since she's got the renegade 'quick ****' and the paragon hurt/comfort-fic type romance. Paragons don't always have mushy lines, one of the paragon responces to "why do you keep trying to talk to me." is a kind of sarcastic/teasing "I enjoy your bubbly personality".
I'd be more inclined to use certain flags to affect if a character will romance you or not things like the Geth data for Tali, or if they're present if you kill certain people, things like that