225 réponses à ce sujet

[kglaser]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Ah, well, that is lame then.

Yes, it is.
I remember when I found out what they did with making Garrus unromanceable in 2 because the romance is dependent on a longstanding association and friendship, I was impressed.  Why couldn't they do that here?  Did they overlook it?

[kglaser]

mrsph wrote...

Probably overlooked it.

But then again, Garrus' romance is also surprisingly hidden away compared to the other ones in general. His is probably the easiest one to accidentally skip if you don't know that it is there.

Yes, and they also make it fairly easy to unintentionally cancel the romance by putting the "let's just be friends" dialogue option as the paragon default, when what you need to choose is the "neutral" middle option.  I thought that was kinda baffling.

edit:  How easy is it to "get out of" the Tali romance once you're in it?  Do they give you a bunch of outs, or you're pretty much locked in once it starts?

Modifié par kglaser, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:59 .

[xlavaina]

I think that Tali's romance has some of the most obvious plot corresponding "outs" of any romance. At pretty much any point in the romance you can break it off by saying that "its too dangerous, I care about your health too much" or something like that.



So both practically and plot wise, yes you can get out of Tali's romance if you want. You're not locked in and any time until you start the suicide mission.

[PrinceLionheart]

kglaser wrote...

edit:  How easy is it to "get out of" the Tali romance once you're in it?  Do they give you a bunch of outs, or you're pretty much locked in once it starts?

You can get out of the romance by saying you don't want to  have sex with her, (or if you feel like being more tactful, say you don't want to risk her health.) 

That's the part the baffled me the most about the romance though. It was like the romance was totally dependent on the two having sex.

[xlavaina]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

kglaser wrote...

edit:  How easy is it to "get out of" the Tali romance once you're in it?  Do they give you a bunch of outs, or you're pretty much locked in once it starts?

You can get out of the romance by saying you don't want to  have sex with her, (or if you feel like being more tactful, say you don't want to risk her health.) 

That's the part the baffled me the most about the romance though. It was like the romance was totally dependent on the two having sex.

That is simply untrue. Tali never states that she wants to have sex. She states that in order for them to have a relationship, they must be intimate, since she needs to take her suit off. Who knows what this means for a Quarian (its obvious for a human, but not so obvious in this case)? She simply states she wants to feel Sheps skin, etc. It definitely did not revolve around the two having sex, and if you think that of the Tali romance, then its honestly the same for everyone else, since that is the culmination of every romance :happy:

I do understand what you're saying, but its more around the relationship revolving around a close personal connection. 

[xlavaina]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Well, that's an unfortunate facet of most recent Bioware romances. Your options are "screw or dump" in most of them.

Its like that for all in the ME universe 

[PrinceLionheart]

xlavaina wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

kglaser wrote...

edit:  How easy is it to "get out of" the Tali romance once you're in it?  Do they give you a bunch of outs, or you're pretty much locked in once it starts?

You can get out of the romance by saying you don't want to  have sex with her, (or if you feel like being more tactful, say you don't want to risk her health.) 

That's the part the baffled me the most about the romance though. It was like the romance was totally dependent on the two having sex.

That is simply untrue. Tali never states that she wants to have sex. She states that in order for them to have a relationship, they must be intimate, since she needs to take her suit off. Who knows what this means for a Quarian (its obvious for a human, but not so obvious in this case)? She simply states she wants to feel Sheps skin, etc. It definitely did not revolve around the two having sex, and if you think that of the Tali romance, then its honestly the same for everyone else, since that is the culmination of every romance 

Fair enough, but the romance comes to an end if you turn down her offer to have sex, even if Shepard expresses it's too dangerous to her health. I honestly felt the romance should have continued even if their skin could not touch.

It''s similar to how you had the option to continue romancing Jack even though you voiced you could not possibly help her with all of her problems. 

[xlavaina]

^ I totally agree btw.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rykoth wrote...

Why is it wrong for Tali to be like that?

Because it's poor story writing.

The reason we can differentiate between "ME1 Tali" and 'ME2 Tali' is because there was marked and noticably character change between the two games. When we can see the characters change over time for provided reasons, that is character development. When we see characters continue on a path that was already set out and established, that's character progression.

But when a character is changed, sometimes against what they were like prior, for no provided reason except author fiat, that's not good character development. When changes to character need to be retroactively justified by the fanbase because it isn't shown or supported in the games, that's akin to character replacement. The further it is, the less linked two characters are: eventually it comes to a point of being the same name, the same looks, the same voice, but something else entirely.


The biggest crux of the problem is there was a distinct and deliberate difference in apprach to Tali between ME1 and ME2, stemming from the post-ME1 decision to change Tali's role as love interest. In ME1, Tali was never a romance interest, or intended to be one. She never appealed to Shepard as one, never acted as one, never gave hints or foreshadowing as one, never implied as wanting to be one. None of her ME1 character was based around 'this girl is enamored with Shepard and is just too shy/Shepard is too clueless,' as Liara will tell in ME2, but that became a central aspect of her character in ME2. That wasn't a development or a progression of what was established in ME1. That was addition by fiat, as based on the original game as if they had decided to make Tali an unrepentent opponent of Shepard ala Tombs after his Cerberus connection.

[Dean_the_Young]

xlavaina wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

kglaser wrote...

edit:  How easy is it to "get out of" the Tali romance once you're in it?  Do they give you a bunch of outs, or you're pretty much locked in once it starts?

You can get out of the romance by saying you don't want to  have sex with her, (or if you feel like being more tactful, say you don't want to risk her health.) 

That's the part the baffled me the most about the romance though. It was like the romance was totally dependent on the two having sex.

That is simply untrue. Tali never states that she wants to have sex. She states that in order for them to have a relationship, they must be intimate, since she needs to take her suit off. Who knows what this means for a Quarian (its obvious for a human, but not so obvious in this case)? She simply states she wants to feel Sheps skin, etc. It definitely did not revolve around the two having sex, and if you think that of the Tali romance, then its honestly the same for everyone else, since that is the culmination of every romance :happy:

I do understand what you're saying, but its more around the relationship revolving around a close personal connection. 

In the Tali's provided context of even air connection being an indicator of wanting skinship sex?

She wants to have direct sex with Shepard. Rather supported by (a) her pursual of that, and ( her refusal of traditional, safer Quarian/other relationships (nervestimulation inside the safety of the suit).


Yes, the end-point of pretty much every romance is sex. (Well, maybe not Jack's: that one actually works far better without sex, just intimacy and trust). That's pretty standard. The question and delimma of actual sex instead of resorting to indirect sex just sort of defines Tali's relationship, in part because of her Quarian condition.

[xlavaina]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In the Tali's provided context of even air connection being an indicator of wanting skinship sex?

She wants to have direct sex with Shepard. Rather supported by (a) her pursual of that, and ( her refusal of traditional, safer Quarian/other relationships (nervestimulation inside the safety of the suit).


Yes, the end-point of pretty much every romance is sex. (Well, maybe not Jack's: that one actually works far better without sex, just intimacy and trust). That's pretty standard. The question and delimma of actual sex instead of resorting to indirect sex just sort of defines Tali's relationship, in part because of her Quarian condition.

I fail to see how you support your point with adequate evidence. For "a" you state that her drive to have direct sex with Shepard is supported by her pursual of that. When does she even hint at this? To Quarians, being "intimate" means linking suits and adapting to your partner. It doesn't necessarily involve sex. "B" also makes little sense. The only Quarian tradition of a relationship is linking suits and becoming "intimate" with one's partner. How does nerve-stimulation relate to a relationship? Isn't that like... going solo? lol... 

Anyway, please support your point so that we may adequately debate, because right now I feel like you're setting up a false dichotomy...  

[thesuperdarkone]

xlavaina wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In the Tali's provided context of even air connection being an indicator of wanting skinship sex?

She wants to have direct sex with Shepard. Rather supported by (a) her pursual of that, and ( her refusal of traditional, safer Quarian/other relationships (nervestimulation inside the safety of the suit).


Yes, the end-point of pretty much every romance is sex. (Well, maybe not Jack's: that one actually works far better without sex, just intimacy and trust). That's pretty standard. The question and delimma of actual sex instead of resorting to indirect sex just sort of defines Tali's relationship, in part because of her Quarian condition.

I fail to see how you support your point with adequate evidence. For "a" you state that her drive to have direct sex with Shepard is supported by her pursual of that. When does she even hint at this? To Quarians, being "intimate" means linking suits and adapting to your partner. It doesn't necessarily involve sex. "B" also makes little sense. The only Quarian tradition of a relationship is linking suits and becoming "intimate" with one's partner. How does nerve-stimulation relate to a relationship? Isn't that like... going solo? lol... 

Anyway, please support your point so that we may adequately debate, because right now I feel like you're setting up a false dichotomy...  

 

I'm guessing all the lines stating that she "wants to feel your skin" against hers, the fact that she basically wants the romance to be REAL and NOT with stimulation programs, the fact that she is taking antibiotics simply to sleep with you. She even jumps you in the romance scene. Don't tell me that you watched the romance and NEVER knew that she really wanted to sleep with you. If you don't believe me, look at the romance scenes again: 

[thesuperdarkone]

[xlavaina]

Well thats a better point, and I appreciate it. I'm willing to accept that it was probably on her mind. However, we're talking about what actually occurred in game, not what might have been implied by a character's personality. I'm not saying that you're not correct, as its quite possible you are, but we can't be sure. Don't forget that Shep took her helmet off, and basically propels the whole relationship forward. I know I know who else will move it forward if not Shep, but thats not the point. Tali has an unwavering respect for Shepard, thats what drove their relationship.

[Rykoth]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

snip

Except, as I said before, it isn't a matter of poor story writing, it's a matter of opinion of the character. You don't like Tali's direction. Fine, but that's Tali. She's the same Tali. Changed? Sure. 2 years after a bunch of adventures can probably do that. But she's still Tali. Just because you don't like her in ME2 doesn't mean its "poor story writing."

Poor story writing would be if Tali was suddenly walking around unmasked claiming that the Quarians magically found a cure to their problems. Or having Saren rise from the dead in ME3 and try to haunt Shepard. Or having Shepard wake up at the end of ME3 having dreamt the whole thing.

In ME1, Tali was in awe of Shepard, I saw that back when ME1 first came out when it was a 360 exclusive. I never interacted with her back then (I didn't chat with most of the crew the first time), so I never got to see much of her. But I got the impression she was in awe. I still do. Head over heels? No, but ME1 is when you get to know the crew. ME1 is the beginning. And consider there IS a gap in time between ME1 and 2.

[Siansonea]

I got the impression that ME1 Tali wasn't all that impressed with Shepard. She does ask to join Shepard's team to take down Saren, but I felt it may be because she had nowhere else to turn for protection (thanks, Shadow Broker). Shepard was the only game in town, and even if Shepard tries to turn her away, Udina insists that she go along (and because Shepard isn't a Spectre yet, Shepard can't tell Udina to eff off). When you talk to her in the engine room, it's just geth this and Migrant Fleet that, and it just goes on and on. Tali was the only character I skipped talking to after awhile. I didn’t feel like I was learning anything about her specifically, which made me feel like she wasn’t feeling a personal connection with Shepard at all. And she would always just say “see you later” and go back to her console. Seriously, no chemistry at all.



The next time you see her on Freedom’s Progress, she’s kind of confrontational with Shepard, especially if Shepard wants to hand Veetor over to Cerberus. Still no hint of chemistry. You see her again on Haestrom, and she’s all business. She barely looks up from her console when Shepard makes it to her bunker. Still no chemistry. It’s only when you start talking to her in the engine room that she starts in with the eyelash batting. And even if Shepard is a total douchnozzle toward her in ME1, hands over Veetor, and otherwise acts like a Cerberus Poster Boy, she still wants to romance him? I find that jarring. In ME1, there were all sorts of little moments with Ashley, Liara and Kaidan that indicated romantic possibilities. Kaidan’s Freudian slip when talking at the Wards comes to mind, as well as Ashley’s line about wearing tinfoil miniskirts in the same situation.



I think it should have been a much more specific path to Tali’s heart, not so open-ended. For me, Tali even considering actually having a relationship with Shepard is a huge leap of logic/faith, and it shouldn’t be entered into lightly. The fact that Tali will romance both Choirboy Shepard and Dirtbag Shepard makes the Tali romance seem unrealistic. Of course to some extent this applies to almost all the LIs, but for some reason it seems more pronounced with Tali. Maybe it’s because Tali seems to have very strong feelings about various things, whereas people like Garrus seem to have a more detached view. The only emotion Garrus ever really shows is wrath toward Sidonis and Dr. Saleon, and nothing Shepard does or doesn’t do really impacts that in any way. Choirboy Shepard can convince Garrus that Sidonis deserves to live out his miserable life, and Garrus seems to accept it, and maybe he does. But that’s a lot different from Tali getting freaky with Mr. Cerberus. There’s too much bad blood between the quarians and Cerberus, and too much of a disconnect between Tali’s personality and Shepard’s actions.



I enjoyed talking with everyone else in ME1 on repeated playthroughs, especially Liara and Kaidan, even Ashley and Wrex were okay to talk to in later playthroughs. Garrus just didn't have enough to say in ME1, the opposite problem of Tali. He rants a bit about Dr. Saleon, talks about C-Sec having too many pesky rules, and that's about it. Doesn't seem to look twice at Shepard, or share anything really personal. I guess he was calibrating the Mako.



Ashley, Kaidan and Liara had lots to say, and it was more personal, less pedantic than Tali's litanies of geth exposition. Wrex is almost as taciturn as Garrus, and his stories are all about the genophage and the krogan culture. Of course Liara also does the obligatory asari culture lessons as well, but for some reason the connection of Benezia seemed to personalize it a bit more. Kaidan gives you the 411 on early human biotics training and Ashley gives you some Alliance history, but they both talk from a very personal point of view about their own lives. Ashley only gets tiresome when she starts spouting poetry. It's nice that it is a connection with her father, but it's not fun to listen to multiple times.

[J4N3_M3]

Siansonea II wrote...

I got the impression that ME1 Tali wasn't all that impressed with Shepard. She does ask to join Shepard's team to take down Saren, but I felt it may be because she had nowhere else to turn for protection (thanks, Shadow Broker). Shepard was the only game in town, and even if Shepard tries to turn her away, Udina insists that she go along (and because Shepard isn't a Spectre yet, Shepard can't tell Udina to eff off). When you talk to her in the engine room, it's just geth this and Migrant Fleet that, and it just goes on and on. Tali was the only character I skipped talking to after awhile. I didn’t feel like I was learning anything about her specifically, which made me feel like she wasn’t feeling a personal connection with Shepard at all. And she would always just say “see you later” and go back to her console. Seriously, no chemistry at all.

The next time you see her on Freedom’s Progress, she’s kind of confrontational with Shepard, especially if Shepard wants to hand Veetor over to Cerberus. Still no hint of chemistry. You see her again on Haestrom, and she’s all business. She barely looks up from her console when Shepard makes it to her bunker. Still no chemistry. It’s only when you start talking to her in the engine room that she starts in with the eyelash batting. And even if Shepard is a total douchnozzle toward her in ME1, hands over Veetor, and otherwise acts like a Cerberus Poster Boy, she still wants to romance him? I find that jarring. In ME1, there were all sorts of little moments with Ashley, Liara and Kaidan that indicated romantic possibilities. Kaidan’s Freudian slip when talking at the Wards comes to mind, as well as Ashley’s line about wearing tinfoil miniskirts in the same situation.

I think it should have been a much more specific path to Tali’s heart, not so open-ended. For me, Tali even considering actually having a relationship with Shepard is a huge leap of logic/faith, and it shouldn’t be entered into lightly. The fact that Tali will romance both Choirboy Shepard and Dirtbag Shepard makes the Tali romance seem unrealistic. Of course to some extent this applies to almost all the LIs, but for some reason it seems more pronounced with Tali. Maybe it’s because Tali seems to have very strong feelings about various things, whereas people like Garrus seem to have a more detached view. The only emotion Garrus ever really shows is wrath toward Sidonis and Dr. Saleon, and nothing Shepard does or doesn’t do really impacts that in any way. Choirboy Shepard can convince Garrus that Sidonis deserves to live out his miserable life, and Garrus seems to accept it, and maybe he does. But that’s a lot different from Tali getting freaky with Mr. Cerberus. There’s too much bad blood between the quarians and Cerberus, and too much of a disconnect between Tali’s personality and Shepard’s actions.

I can agree with a lot of this to a certain degree but Shepard doesn't act all Cerberus-posterboy when talking to Tali, not at one point in any of the conversations. And she does voice her concerns about his work for them.

I don't like working with them any more than you do, but we need them. - I'm glad to hear that, Shepard. Just let me know how I can help.

I don't agree with all Cerberus policies but they're doing the right thing here, Tali. - I know you need the resources to fight the Collectors but be careful Shepard. - I fully expect them to betray us at some point. And we'll be ready.

Does it look like they're pulling the strings here, Tali? I'm not working for them. They're working for me. - So you ordered the listening devices and tracking beacons that are all over this ship?

There is no Cerberus-Posterboy behaviour at all. The only time you really CAN screw things up is at Tali's trial which will lead to her not being loyal and therefore her not being romancable but that goes for all LIs in the game.

Siansonea II wrote...
I enjoyed talking with everyone else in ME1 on repeated playthroughs, especially Liara and Kaidan, even Ashley and Wrex were okay to talk to in later playthroughs. Garrus just didn't have enough to say in ME1, the opposite problem of Tali. He rants a bit about Dr. Saleon, talks about C-Sec having too many pesky rules, and that's about it. Doesn't seem to look twice at Shepard, or share anything really personal. I guess he was calibrating the Mako.

Ashley, Kaidan and Liara had lots to say, and it was more personal, less pedantic than Tali's litanies of geth exposition. Wrex is almost as taciturn as Garrus, and his stories are all about the genophage and the krogan culture. Of course Liara also does the obligatory asari culture lessons as well, but for some reason the connection of Benezia seemed to personalize it a bit more. Kaidan gives you the 411 on early human biotics training and Ashley gives you some Alliance history, but they both talk from a very personal point of view about their own lives. Ashley only gets tiresome when she starts spouting poetry. It's nice that it is a connection with her father, but it's not fun to listen to multiple times.

See but that is all personal preferences again. People see things differently here and some like things in a character that others just purely despise. it still doesn't mean one character is better than the other.

I don't get why this is so damn hard to understand.... *le sigh*