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[Rykoth]

Bioware probably didn't have the time to think about every single scenario with how people treated Tali.



They probably have the same philosophy as us Tali fans - Who in their right mind would be a douche to Tali?

[Aeowyn]

Rykoth wrote...

Bioware probably didn't have the time to think about every single scenario with how people treated Tali.

They probably have the same philosophy as us Tali fans - Who in their right mind would be a douche to Tali?

See, I read this, and then I compare ME to Dragon Age. In Dragon Age they pretty much thought of every scenario. Although the system was different, your companions treated you differently if you treated them good or if you treated them like crap.
First thing that comes to mind is Wynne. I hated Wynne and she didn't like me either. This showed in Awakening. She was cold and spoke to me as if I was just another stranger on the streets who she just happened to have fought alongside a year earlier.
It can be done.

[Dean_the_Young]

xlavaina wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In the Tali's provided context of even air connection being an indicator of wanting skinship sex?

She wants to have direct sex with Shepard. Rather supported by (a) her pursual of that, and ( her refusal of traditional, safer Quarian/other relationships (nervestimulation inside the safety of the suit).


Yes, the end-point of pretty much every romance is sex. (Well, maybe not Jack's: that one actually works far better without sex, just intimacy and trust). That's pretty standard. The question and delimma of actual sex instead of resorting to indirect sex just sort of defines Tali's relationship, in part because of her Quarian condition.

I fail to see how you support your point with adequate evidence. For "a" you state that her drive to have direct sex with Shepard is supported by her pursual of that. When does she even hint at this? To Quarians, being "intimate" means linking suits and adapting to your partner. It doesn't necessarily involve sex. "B" also makes little sense. The only Quarian tradition of a relationship is linking suits and becoming "intimate" with one's partner. How does nerve-stimulation relate to a relationship? Isn't that like... going solo? lol... 

Anyway, please support your point so that we may adequately debate, because right now I feel like you're setting up a false dichotomy...  

Since it was a reply on a different line of conversation entirely,. your confusion is understandable, even predictable. And a false dichotomy is setting up an artificial either/or choice, which I did not do.

As Tali will tell you if you ask, and you can over hear with the Turian/Quarian pair in the Eternity lounge, Quarian/other species relationships often happen outside the suit, with the Quarian using nerv-stims in lieu of contact. In some respects, it's akin to mutual masturbation, but it's not necessarily any less intimate, or any less involved with the partner.

Rejecting that option out of hand, and also not wanting to go through the acclimation process with Shepard to have safe, or at least safer, sex further down the road, and instead focusing on short-term solutions for immediate intimacy, while also talking about her desire for skin-on-skin contact for just this part? Yeah, she was thinking of sex.


That's not in the least a bad thing, mind you, and I'm frankly puzzled why anyone would think of it as such. But Tali certainly wasn't 'I want to chastly be naked outside of my suit with you, my skin against yours, with no sexual intent whatsoever.'

[Dean_the_Young]

Rykoth wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

snip

Except, as I said before, it isn't a matter of poor story writing, it's a matter of opinion of the character. You don't like Tali's direction. Fine, but that's Tali. She's the same Tali. Changed? Sure. 2 years after a bunch of adventures can probably do that. But she's still Tali. Just because you don't like her in ME2 doesn't mean its "poor story writing."

If something is changed, by definition it is not the same.

If a character in a literary work is changed significantly without provided basis and development, it fails to live up to the commonly accepted rules of character development (which we know Bioware follows) and progression. 

Poor story writing would be if Tali was suddenly walking around unmasked claiming that the Quarians magically found a cure to their problems. Or having Saren rise from the dead in ME3 and try to haunt Shepard. Or having Shepard wake up at the end of ME3 having dreamt the whole thing.

That would also be bad writing . Bad writing isn't limited to the biggest disreprencies.

In ME1, Tali was in awe of Shepard, I saw that back when ME1 first came out when it was a 360 exclusive. I never interacted with her back then (I didn't chat with most of the crew the first time), so I never got to see much of her. But I got the impression she was in awe. I still do. Head over heels? No, but ME1 is when you get to know the crew. ME1 is the beginning. And consider there IS a gap in time between ME1 and 2.

Houston, I think we found the problem.

Tell you what. I'll give you time to go back, play through Mass Effect 1 again. Interact with the crew this time: it's pretty fun what you can learn about the characters when you actually talk to them.

Then, once you've done that and taken a good look at how the characters were in ME1, we can talk about how changed, and how justified the changes were, between the two games are.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rykoth wrote...

Bioware probably didn't have the time to think about every single scenario with how people treated Tali.

Besides their proven ability to take complex considerations into account (see: Dragon Age), they don't need to. They only need to take more than one (preferably three) into account, which is well within their proven scope of ability.

As a romance, what the Tali romance lacked was nuance. As a Paragon path romance, it worked, sort of, for the people who enjoy that. But they could easily have put in a, oh let's call it a 'Renegade' romance tone to it as well. You can be Paragon or Renegade in approach to Jack, to Miranda, to Jacob, to most of the ME1 romances (so long as you avoided the romance-ending choices when it was a stop-go choice). It allows the Shepard to be differentiated, and allowed the romancee to be differentiated as well. Tali didn't just lack from any consideration from how you treated her personally (though they were more than happy to write and record scripts for a number of other variables). Tali lacked nuance in the in-game tone of the relationship as well.

They probably have the same philosophy as us Tali fans - Who in their right mind would be a douche to Tali?

People who take moral, ethical, and practical issues with war crimes being covered up?

[J4N3_M3]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As a romance, what the Tali romance lacked was nuance. As a Paragon path romance, it worked, sort of, for the people who enjoy that. But they could easily have put in a, oh let's call it a 'Renegade' romance tone to it as well. You can be Paragon or Renegade in approach to Jack, to Miranda, to Jacob,

that's not true! no romance option works with the renegade approach! you have to go all paragon during the romance-dialogues to make sure you lock the romances.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
People who take moral, ethical, and practical issues with war crimes being covered up?

so those people would be a douche to Tali WHY? Elaborate...

[IndigoWolfe]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
People who take moral, ethical, and practical issues with war crimes being covered up?

so those people would be a douche to Tali WHY? Elaborate...

Not taking a side here, but I think he was referring to covering up the experiments Rael was doing onboard the Alerei.

[Topographer]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Houston, I think we found the problem.

Tell you what. I'll give you time to go back, play through Mass Effect 1 again. Interact with the crew this time: it's pretty fun what you can learn about the characters when you actually talk to them.

Then, once you've done that and taken a good look at how the characters were in ME1, we can talk about how changed, and how justified the changes were, between the two games are.

The character's changes have not been as dramatic as you make it out to be. It's been two years and they all thought their captain died, I'd say the change is more realistic than most of you know. 

[mineralica]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rykoth wrote...

Why is it wrong for Tali to be like that?

Because it's poor story writing.

The reason we can differentiate between "ME1 Tali" and 'ME2 Tali' is because there was marked and noticably character change between the two games. When we can see the characters change over time for provided reasons, that is character development. When we see characters continue on a path that was already set out and established, that's character progression.

But when a character is changed, sometimes against what they were like prior, for no provided reason except author fiat, that's not good character development. When changes to character need to be retroactively justified by the fanbase because it isn't shown or supported in the games, that's akin to character replacement. The further it is, the less linked two characters are: eventually it comes to a point of being the same name, the same looks, the same voice, but something else entirely.


The biggest crux of the problem is there was a distinct and deliberate difference in apprach to Tali between ME1 and ME2, stemming from the post-ME1 decision to change Tali's role as love interest. In ME1, Tali was never a romance interest, or intended to be one. She never appealed to Shepard as one, never acted as one, never gave hints or foreshadowing as one, never implied as wanting to be one. None of her ME1 character was based around 'this girl is enamored with Shepard and is just too shy/Shepard is too clueless,' as Liara will tell in ME2, but that became a central aspect of her character in ME2. That wasn't a development or a progression of what was established in ME1. That was addition by fiat, as based on the original game as if they had decided to make Tali an unrepentent opponent of Shepard ala Tombs after his Cerberus connection.

Very nice said. The same situation is with Liara - "I'm naive scientist and I'm not my mother!" in ME1 and "I'm cold-blooded informational broker and I repeat my mother's line" in vanilla ME2. The only thing ME1 Tali and ME2 Tali have in common is thoughts toward to Geth. In fact, ME2 Tali looks more like ME1 Liara than ME1 Tali. Knowing what happened with Liara, I'm afraid about my little sister in ME3

[Thundertactics]

mineralica wrote...
The only thing ME1 Tali and ME2 Tali have in common is thoughts toward to Geth. In fact, ME2 Tali looks more like ME1 Liara than ME1 Tali.

Just... What?
Are we even playing the same game? Same counts for Dean.

The only time Tali acts even remotely similar to that is during her romance.
She still kicks geth ass on Haestrom (the room is littered with dead geth). She still stands up against the admirals. She still tells the racist volus to STFU. She still tells enemies to shove it during combat. She still tells Shepard he's an idiot on numerous occasions (on the Alerei and several Cerberus-related discussions, for example. Or when you give the evidence, or when you do the renegade break-up in the romance), her resolve unfaltering, she doesn't bend to his/her will. She still tells Garrus to shut it when he brings up the elevators and her immunesystem. She intended to do her loyalty mission on her own, to book another ship so she wouldn't harm the mission, she didn't ask for Shepard's help, she asked for permission to leave for a while. She manages to restrain herself until Shepard arrives when a member of her race's very worst enemy was stealing her property and had the ability to start an all-out war against her species. And I'm probably missing a few here.

If anything, Tali had more opportunity to show her snarky, unyielding and badass personality during ME2.

[J4N3_M3]

Thundertactics wrote...

mineralica wrote...
The only thing ME1 Tali and ME2 Tali have in common is thoughts toward to Geth. In fact, ME2 Tali looks more like ME1 Liara than ME1 Tali.

Just... What?
Are we even playing the same game?

wait, are you saying that this is not the discussion about Final Fantasy MCMXXXIV? oh dang... :lol::lol::lol:

[Siansonea]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I got the impression that ME1 Tali wasn't all that impressed with Shepard. She does ask to join Shepard's team to take down Saren, but I felt it may be because she had nowhere else to turn for protection (thanks, Shadow Broker). Shepard was the only game in town, and even if Shepard tries to turn her away, Udina insists that she go along (and because Shepard isn't a Spectre yet, Shepard can't tell Udina to eff off). When you talk to her in the engine room, it's just geth this and Migrant Fleet that, and it just goes on and on. Tali was the only character I skipped talking to after awhile. I didn’t feel like I was learning anything about her specifically, which made me feel like she wasn’t feeling a personal connection with Shepard at all. And she would always just say “see you later” and go back to her console. Seriously, no chemistry at all.

The next time you see her on Freedom’s Progress, she’s kind of confrontational with Shepard, especially if Shepard wants to hand Veetor over to Cerberus. Still no hint of chemistry. You see her again on Haestrom, and she’s all business. She barely looks up from her console when Shepard makes it to her bunker. Still no chemistry. It’s only when you start talking to her in the engine room that she starts in with the eyelash batting. And even if Shepard is a total douchnozzle toward her in ME1, hands over Veetor, and otherwise acts like a Cerberus Poster Boy, she still wants to romance him? I find that jarring. In ME1, there were all sorts of little moments with Ashley, Liara and Kaidan that indicated romantic possibilities. Kaidan’s Freudian slip when talking at the Wards comes to mind, as well as Ashley’s line about wearing tinfoil miniskirts in the same situation.

I think it should have been a much more specific path to Tali’s heart, not so open-ended. For me, Tali even considering actually having a relationship with Shepard is a huge leap of logic/faith, and it shouldn’t be entered into lightly. The fact that Tali will romance both Choirboy Shepard and Dirtbag Shepard makes the Tali romance seem unrealistic. Of course to some extent this applies to almost all the LIs, but for some reason it seems more pronounced with Tali. Maybe it’s because Tali seems to have very strong feelings about various things, whereas people like Garrus seem to have a more detached view. The only emotion Garrus ever really shows is wrath toward Sidonis and Dr. Saleon, and nothing Shepard does or doesn’t do really impacts that in any way. Choirboy Shepard can convince Garrus that Sidonis deserves to live out his miserable life, and Garrus seems to accept it, and maybe he does. But that’s a lot different from Tali getting freaky with Mr. Cerberus. There’s too much bad blood between the quarians and Cerberus, and too much of a disconnect between Tali’s personality and Shepard’s actions.

I can agree with a lot of this to a certain degree but Shepard doesn't act all Cerberus-posterboy when talking to Tali, not at one point in any of the conversations. And she does voice her concerns about his work for them.

I don't like working with them any more than you do, but we need them. - I'm glad to hear that, Shepard. Just let me know how I can help.

I don't agree with all Cerberus policies but they're doing the right thing here, Tali. - I know you need the resources to fight the Collectors but be careful Shepard. - I fully expect them to betray us at some point. And we'll be ready.

Does it look like they're pulling the strings here, Tali? I'm not working for them. They're working for me. - So you ordered the listening devices and tracking beacons that are all over this ship?

There is no Cerberus-Posterboy behaviour at all. The only time you really CAN screw things up is at Tali's trial which will lead to her not being loyal and therefore her not being romancable but that goes for all LIs in the game.

I'm not talking about what Shepard says to Tali one-on-one, but what he does. Like if he gives Legion to Cerberus, or if he gives them the data from the Lost Operative mission, or other such pro-Cerberus actions. Tali has to be aware of what's going on, with her tech expertise I'm sure she knows what's what. Especially if she's already suspicious of the people around her on the Normandy SR2.

Siansonea II wrote...
I enjoyed talking with everyone else in ME1 on repeated playthroughs, especially Liara and Kaidan, even Ashley and Wrex were okay to talk to in later playthroughs. Garrus just didn't have enough to say in ME1, the opposite problem of Tali. He rants a bit about Dr. Saleon, talks about C-Sec having too many pesky rules, and that's about it. Doesn't seem to look twice at Shepard, or share anything really personal. I guess he was calibrating the Mako.

Ashley, Kaidan and Liara had lots to say, and it was more personal, less pedantic than Tali's litanies of geth exposition. Wrex is almost as taciturn as Garrus, and his stories are all about the genophage and the krogan culture. Of course Liara also does the obligatory asari culture lessons as well, but for some reason the connection of Benezia seemed to personalize it a bit more. Kaidan gives you the 411 on early human biotics training and Ashley gives you some Alliance history, but they both talk from a very personal point of view about their own lives. Ashley only gets tiresome when she starts spouting poetry. It's nice that it is a connection with her father, but it's not fun to listen to multiple times.

See but that is all personal preferences again. People see things differently here and some like things in a character that others just purely despise. it still doesn't mean one character is better than the other.

I don't get why this is so damn hard to understand.... *le sigh*

That's true, it is all pretty subjective.

[Dean_the_Young]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As a romance, what the Tali romance lacked was nuance. As a Paragon path romance, it worked, sort of, for the people who enjoy that. But they could easily have put in a, oh let's call it a 'Renegade' romance tone to it as well. You can be Paragon or Renegade in approach to Jack, to Miranda, to Jacob,

that's not true! no romance option works with the renegade approach! you have to go all paragon during the romance-dialogues to make sure you lock the romances.

Incorrect. That is only true when the relationship poses a 'yes/no' option, at which point neither bottom or top right are paragon vis-a-vis Renegade. They are simply yes/no, in the same sense that accepting sidequests in and of itself, while requiring top right choices, are not paragon choices in ad of themselves.

There are a number of times in a number of couples, in both games, when the bottom-right progresses the relationship just as surely as the top right. This is often accompanied by the appropriate shift in tone. A renegade response in the the final love scene, for example, is the only way to get an outright confession of love from Jacob. Miranda has alternative (and even superior, according to some of her fans) dialogue resulting from Renegade prompts. You can actually change Kaiden's world-view by Renegading him in ME1, and sustain Ashley's world view, by selective use of Paragon/Renegade.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
People who take moral, ethical, and practical issues with war crimes being covered up?

so those people would be a douche to Tali WHY? Elaborate...

Revealing her Father's actions and losing her loyalty has usually been called a douche move.

Mind you, some people can easily not like her controversial and unrepentant stance on Geth in ME1. That lost her some fan base as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Topographer wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Houston, I think we found the problem.

Tell you what. I'll give you time to go back, play through Mass Effect 1 again. Interact with the crew this time: it's pretty fun what you can learn about the characters when you actually talk to them.

Then, once you've done that and taken a good look at how the characters were in ME1, we can talk about how changed, and how justified the changes were, between the two games are.

The character's changes have not been as dramatic as you make it out to be. It's been two years and they all thought their captain died, I'd say the change is more realistic than most of you know. 

Than most of you know? What is that supposed to say? Your point (or what I presume was intended to be your point) makes no coherent sense.

I have listed ways Tali has changed. I've listed why I thought they were poor in form and execution. Are you even disagreeing with that position? Because the most this post posits is that you don't think it was that bad, which isn't a disagreement of the points and only the end conclusion.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 04 janvier 2011 - 04:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Thundertactics wrote...

The only time Tali acts even remotely similar to that is during her romance.

I'd like to point out that these are your words, not mine, and yet they completely support my point of abrupt character change more than any point of character continuity. Strangely enough, so do most of your own points.

She still kicks geth ass on Haestrom (the room is littered with dead geth). She still stands up against the admirals. She still tells the racist volus to STFU. She still tells enemies to shove it during combat. She still tells Shepard he's an idiot on numerous occasions (on the Alerei and several Cerberus-related discussions, for example.

'Still does this' implies that she did it in ME1. In ME1, she didn't stay holed up in a bunker. In ME1, she didn't confront and tell racists to STFU. In ME1, she didn't back down to Shepard like she does over Cerberus and the Alerei.

Or when you give the evidence, or when you do the renegade break-up in the romance), her resolve unfaltering, she doesn't bend to his/her will.

Except, she does just that.

She still tells Garrus to shut it when he brings up the elevators and her immunesystem.

She never told him to shut up in ME1, threatened him (or anyone else) with a shotgun in ME1, or argued about elevators, or even argued in the same manner. Infact, in ME1 their main elevator argument was about race-guilt, not immune systems.

She intended to do her loyalty mission on her own, to book another ship so she wouldn't harm the mission, she didn't ask for Shepard's help, she asked for permission to leave for a while.

What was the equivalent in ME1?

She manages to restrain herself until Shepard arrives when a member of her race's very worst enemy was stealing her property and had the ability to start an all-out war against her species. And I'm probably missing a few here.

Tali never showed anything like that in ME1.

If anything, Tali had more opportunity to show her snarky, unyielding and badass personality during ME2.

The one she never had in ME1, apparently.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 04 janvier 2011 - 04:35 .

[Siansonea]

Topographer wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Houston, I think we found the problem.

Tell you what. I'll give you time to go back, play through Mass Effect 1 again. Interact with the crew this time: it's pretty fun what you can learn about the characters when you actually talk to them.

Then, once you've done that and taken a good look at how the characters were in ME1, we can talk about how changed, and how justified the changes were, between the two games are.

The character's changes have not been as dramatic as you make it out to be. It's been two years and they all thought their captain died, I'd say the change is more realistic than most of you know. 

I agree with this. It's just odd to me that Garrus and Tali find themselves attracted to Shepard seemingly "out of the blue", and after not having seen Shepard for two years. They were off doing their own thing, on Omega and in the Migrant Fleet. Shepard reappears, and they both want to jump his/her bones. Seems rather sudden to me. But whatever, the romances are optional after all. I'm not in any way inconvenienced by the inclusion of those romances, and I don't mind that the people that wanted them were able to get what they wanted. After all, I'm always pushing for BioWare to include real same-sex romance options for Shepard, and some people would argue that such romances would similarly be "out of the blue". I get that, and I can see both sides. I don't want anyone to think that the inclusion of romance options for Tali is the reason I personally dislike the character. That is really just a matter of personal taste. Some personalities just don't appeal to me, while others are very appealing. I love Samara's personality, but other people find her unappealing. That's fine, different strokes for different folks and whatnot.

I think I would like all the LI character progressions a lot better if the romances weren't the sole form of resolution for those characters. It bugs me that I can't have a purely platonic moment with Garrus where he and Shepard talk about what they mean to each other, brothers in arms and all that. Same with everyone else, but especially Garrus and Tali because of their previous connection with Shepard. I like what they did with Liara in Lair of the Shadow Broker, it would be nice if people from Shepard's past had a more personal connection with Shepard that wasn't always about romance. That's why I like Mordin and Samara's character progressions so much, they have depth, and you can really connect with them on a friendship level. I would even like it if there was a "difficult" moment with the characters who are philosophically opposed to Shepard, like when Samara tells Renegade Shepard that if she was not sworn to him, she would have to kill him for some of the things he's done.

I think I'm preaching to the choir though, I think regardless of whether you like or dislike Tali or any other character, the abrupt end to conversation is a pretty universal source of dissatisfaction.

[Siansonea]

Actually, you know what I think would make me like Tali a little bit? If she told a certain type of Shepard to go to hell, and then turned her back on him/her (i.e.: leaves Shepard's command). I'd have more respect for a lot of characters if they would really call Shepard on his/her BS. And that's not limited to Renegade Shepard, I think some characters should really butt heads with Paragon Shepard (Jack and Zaeed spring to mind).

Modifié par Siansonea II, 04 janvier 2011 - 04:42 .

[Alienmorph]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

Have you ever played with her in ME1? She's the second character that does the biggest number of renegade suggestions after Wrex... take her and anyone else in the final battle that's not the krogan and she'll always be the one that suggests to let the Council die (not sure only about Ash). She's got various abrasive banters with Garrus in the elevators (and that's why the "I have a shotgun" dialogue in ME2 is there), she survives alone to the geths and to saren's agents enough long to arrive to the Citadel and to contact Fist and the SB. She has no problems with the ambigous morality of Noveria's corporates, and the list continues. Honeslty she's far more bada** and cinic in ME1 that in the 2.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 04 janvier 2011 - 04:50 .

[Siansonea]

Alienmorph wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

Have you ever played with her in ME1? She's the second character that does the biggest number of renegade suggestions after Wrex... take her and anyone else in the final battle that's not the krogan and she'll always be the one that suggests to let the Council die (not sure only about Ash). She's got various abrasive banters with Garrus in the elevators (and that's why the "I have a shotgun" dialogue in ME2 is there), she survives alone to the geths and to saren's agents enough long to arrive to the Citadel and to contact Fist and the SB. She has no problems with the ambigous morality of Noveria's corporates, and the list continues. Honeslty she's far more bada** and cinic in ME1 that in the 2.

I think Tali will recommend letting the Council die with everyone except Ashley and Wrex (though I'm not 100% sure). Based on my observations of moments like this, it seems like Kaidan is the most Paragon (almost never recommending the Renegade choice), followed by Liara, then Garrus and Tali, then Ashley and Wrex, with Wrex predictably being the most Renegade. It's not completely clear-cut though, I've taken Liara and Kaidan to the endgame many times, and Kaidan always tells Shepard to save the Council, and Liara is always the one who says "are you sure, Shepard?". But with the Rachni Queen their positions are reversed, though it is worth noting that Kaidan says the "the tanks are rigged with acid for a reason" line, but doesn't press the issue after that. If I remember correctly Wrex will go into a long explanation of why the Rachni Queen MUST die. Does anyone remember what Tali and Garrus' opinions are in that circumstance?

This is making me want to play through ME1 again, just to see.

[Alienmorph]

Tali suggest neutraly to use the acid to kill the queen, if the other squaddie is Garrus or Liara. But, once again she's the one who do the renegade suggestion.

[J4N3_M3]

but final fantasy is such a great game, aren't we all here because of that???? xD

[mineralica]

Alienmorph wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

Have you ever played with her in ME1? She's the second character that does the biggest number of renegade suggestions after Wrex... take her and anyone else in the final battle that's not the krogan and she'll always be the one that suggests to let the Council die (not sure only about Ash). She's got various abrasive banters with Garrus in the elevators (and that's why the "I have a shotgun" dialogue in ME2 is there), she survives alone to the geths and to saren's agents enough long to arrive to the Citadel and to contact Fist and the SB. She has no problems with the ambigous morality of Noveria's corporates, and the list continues. Honeslty she's far more bada** and cinic in ME1 that in the 2.

Tali is less renegade than Wrex, Ashley (not paragoned Ashley) and possibly Garrus. My playthrough for achievement was Tali/Liara, however. In ME1, she looked a bit cynical to me and sorta baby genius - not about immaturity, but about knowledge (all dialogues with her was about the quarian culture, plus what Adams told about her) and young age. 17 (I hope my memory serves normal) years old Tali seemed to be far more mature than 106 years old Liara.

And in ME2 - boom! Tali almost worships Shepard . Tali is far more emotional and cares about her father far more than about Flotilla's laws. Tali speaks about scent of flowers more than about engines. Definitely not that I expected to see.

[J4N3_M3]

mineralica wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

Have you ever played with her in ME1? She's the second character that does the biggest number of renegade suggestions after Wrex... take her and anyone else in the final battle that's not the krogan and she'll always be the one that suggests to let the Council die (not sure only about Ash). She's got various abrasive banters with Garrus in the elevators (and that's why the "I have a shotgun" dialogue in ME2 is there), she survives alone to the geths and to saren's agents enough long to arrive to the Citadel and to contact Fist and the SB. She has no problems with the ambigous morality of Noveria's corporates, and the list continues. Honeslty she's far more bada** and cinic in ME1 that in the 2.

Tali is less renegade than Wrex, Ashley (not paragoned Ashley) and possibly Garrus. My playthrough for achievement was Tali/Liara, however. In ME1, she looked a bit cynical to me and sorta baby genius - not about immaturity, but about knowledge (all dialogues with her was about the quarian culture, plus what Adams told about her) and young age. 17 (I hope my memory serves normal) years old Tali seemed to be far more mature than 106 years old Liara.

And in ME2 - boom! Tali almost worships Shepard . Tali is far more emotional and cares about her father far more than about Flotilla's laws. Tali speaks about scent of flowers more than about engines. Definitely not that I expected to see.

that's because in the first game we didn't know much about Tali. then 25 years passed, she had 19 children and four grand dogs and now she's happily in love with Shepard. What's wrong with that? Everyone deserves real love. wtf? you guys are so weird...

[Alienmorph]

Not than Garrus, in my last playtrhought I bringed them with me almost the whole time exactly to see that. And Tali was 22 in ME1 and 24 in ME2, stop with the "teenage quarian" thing. I can bring you many reasons of the evolution of her characterization in a more gentle person... but I've already did a text wall post about that at the beginning of this thread, that almost everyone ignored. Check that.

[J4N3_M3]

Alienmorph wrote...

Not than Garrus, in my last playtrhought I bringed them with me almost the whole time exactly to see that. And Tali was 22 in ME1 and 24 in ME2, stop with the "teenage quarian" thing. I can bring you many reasons of the evolution of her characterization in a more gentle person... but I've already did a text wall post about that at the beginning of this thread, that almost everyone ignored. Check that.

it got ignored because people don't wanna CHANGE their opinion. they dislike someone, so they wanna be right about disliking that someone. it's that simple.

I'm pulling a Kelly Chambers here: I'm full of love....what can I say? I'm a people person xD 
Oh god, i nearly threw up in my mouth lol.