225 réponses à ce sujet

[Alienmorph]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

Not than Garrus, in my last playtrhought I bringed them with me almost the whole time exactly to see that. And Tali was 22 in ME1 and 24 in ME2, stop with the "teenage quarian" thing. I can bring you many reasons of the evolution of her characterization in a more gentle person... but I've already did a text wall post about that at the beginning of this thread, that almost everyone ignored. Check that.

it got ignored because people don't wanna CHANGE their opinion. they dislike someone, so they wanna be right about disliking that someone. it's that simple.

Off course, Jane... off course.



I just wanted point once again that I can bring decent reasons for my opinions, unlike most of the users in this thread.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:18 .

[Addai]

Siansonea II wrote...
 If I remember correctly Wrex will go into a long explanation of why the Rachni Queen MUST die. Does anyone remember what Tali and Garrus' opinions are in that circumstance?

There's a video on YouTube of Garrus and Wrex.  Garrus wants Shepard to spare the Rachni queen in order to let the council decide what to do with her.

[Siansonea]

Alienmorph wrote...

Tali suggest neutraly to use the acid to kill the queen, if the other squaddie is Garrus or Liara. But, once again she's the one who do the renegade suggestion.

What about Tali and Kaidan? Same thing? I can't imagine it being otherwise.

[J4N3_M3]

Alienmorph wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

Not than Garrus, in my last playtrhought I bringed them with me almost the whole time exactly to see that. And Tali was 22 in ME1 and 24 in ME2, stop with the "teenage quarian" thing. I can bring you many reasons of the evolution of her characterization in a more gentle person... but I've already did a text wall post about that at the beginning of this thread, that almost everyone ignored. Check that.

it got ignored because people don't wanna CHANGE their opinion. they dislike someone, so they wanna be right about disliking that someone. it's that simple.

Off course, Jane... off course.



I just wanted point once again that I can bring decent reasons for my opions, unlike most of the users in this thread.

that would require a certain level of intelligence on the side of those reading your arguments PLUS a huge deal of being ready to accept them as your opinion MINUS the constant will to force their point of view on you.

[Alienmorph]

Siansonea II wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

Tali
suggest neutraly to use the acid to kill the queen, if the other
squaddie is Garrus or Liara. But, once again she's the one who do the
renegade suggestion.

What about Tali and Kaidan? Same thing? I can't imagine it being otherwise.

I think so... Kaiden's almost full Paragon.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:20 .

[Addai]

Siansonea II wrote...

I agree with this. It's just odd to me that Garrus and Tali find themselves attracted to Shepard seemingly "out of the blue", and after not having seen Shepard for two years. They were off doing their own thing, on Omega and in the Migrant Fleet. Shepard reappears, and they both want to jump his/her bones.

Not true in Garrus' case.  He doesn't appear to have even thought of it until Shepard brings it up, he thinks it over, says there's no one he respects more in the galaxy so why not, but even in the next conversation he has apparently been pondering whether it's a crazy idea or not.  Doesn't sound like he was pining for Shepard in the intervening two years, unlike Tali if her diary entries are any indication.

I always like more non-LI friendship interactions, though.  Those always get short shrift.

[Siansonea]

Alienmorph wrote...

I just wanted point once again that I can bring decent reasons for my opinions, unlike most of the users in this thread.

It's worth pointing out that we all have opinions, we all have "reasons" for those opinions, but no opinion is intrinsically more valid than any other opinion. We are to varying degrees aware of the underlying factors that contribute to our opinion, but that doesn't take away from the fact that we're really just talking about personal preferences here. This isn't mathematics, there are no right or wrong answers.

[Alienmorph]

Siansonea II wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

I just wanted point once again that I can bring decent reasons for my opinions, unlike most of the users in this thread.

It's worth pointing out that we all have opinions, we all have "reasons" for those opinions, but no opinion is intrinsically more valid than any other opinion. We are to varying degrees aware of the underlying factors that contribute to our opinion, but that doesn't take away from the fact that we're really just talking about personal preferences here. This isn't mathematics, there are no right or wrong answers.

Sure, but there can be well argumented opinions, and guys who wanna just open their mounths ignoring the facts because they love to be right. Again, in my initial post, I said that I can discuss civily with anyone who's opened to other user's opionions and respect that. That's not what I see in most of the post around this thread.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:28 .

[J4N3_M3]

Alienmorph wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

I just wanted point once again that I can bring decent reasons for my opinions, unlike most of the users in this thread.

It's worth pointing out that we all have opinions, we all have "reasons" for those opinions, but no opinion is intrinsically more valid than any other opinion. We are to varying degrees aware of the underlying factors that contribute to our opinion, but that doesn't take away from the fact that we're really just talking about personal preferences here. This isn't mathematics, there are no right or wrong answers.

Sure, but there can be well argumented opinions, and guys who wanna just open their mounths ignoring the facts because they love to be right. Again, in my initial post, I said that I can discuss civily with anyone who's opened to other user's opionions and respect that. That's not what I see in most of the post around this thread.

i'm always right anyway :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Siansonea]

Alienmorph wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

I just wanted point once again that I can bring decent reasons for my opinions, unlike most of the users in this thread.

It's worth pointing out that we all have opinions, we all have "reasons" for those opinions, but no opinion is intrinsically more valid than any other opinion. We are to varying degrees aware of the underlying factors that contribute to our opinion, but that doesn't take away from the fact that we're really just talking about personal preferences here. This isn't mathematics, there are no right or wrong answers.

Sure, but there can be well argumented opinions, and guys who wanna just open their mounths ignoring the facts because they love to be right. Again, in my initial post, I said that I can discuss civily with anyone who's opened to other user's opionions and respect that. That's not what I see in most of the post around this thread.

I see what you're saying, but there's no real solution I don't think. It will always come down to two people looking at the same thing, but seeing it differently. I think Picasso was a genius, others think he was a hack who couldn't draw. It's still the same Picasso. We can give our ideas about why we feel certain ways about the various characters, but I don't think I'll ever convince anyone to feel the same way I do if they don't already. I'm not going to convert a die-hard Tali fan. And they won't convert me. The key is to be able to discuss our ideas about the characters in a civil manner, as you say. There are many things about Tali that don't appeal to me, and I don't mind discussing those things, but it's perfectly okay to me that other people like her for those very same things.

[Dean_the_Young]

Alienmorph wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

Have you ever played with her in ME1? She's the second character that does the biggest number of renegade suggestions after Wrex... take her and anyone else in the final battle that's not the krogan and she'll always be the one that suggests to let the Council die (not sure only about Ash).

Tali is the middle-character on the Paragon/Renegade sliding scale. She's more Renegade than the Paragon characters (Liara, default Kaiden, Paragon Ash, Paragon Garrus), and more Paragon than the Renegade characters (Wrex, default Ash, Renegade Kaiden, Renegade Garrus). On various occassions, characters slide a bit on the scale.

Mass Effect's system was that someone would always support the Renegade decision, and someone would always support the Paragon decision, and it was always determined by who was closer to which. With a Paragon Ashley, IIRC, even Liara will argue for letting the council die.

She's got various abrasive banters with Garrus in the elevators (and that's why the "I have a shotgun" dialogue in ME2 is there),

Except the 'I have a shotgun' abrasive banter is completely different from the argument she and Garrus would get in the elevators. In ME1, they both swung about race crimes and guilt. In ME2, Tali swings a shot gun.

she survives alone to the geths and to saren's agents enough long to arrive to the Citadel and to contact Fist and the SB. She has no problems with the ambigous morality of Noveria's corporates, and the list continues. Honeslty she's far more bada** and cinic in ME1 that in the 2.

No, she wasn't especially cynical in ME1 by any measure of the word. Certainly not when compared with Ashley, Wrex, Garrus, or potentially even Kaiden.

In ME1, her needing to be saved/in a safe place was just one part of her role. Not three or more parts.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:17 .

[J4N3_M3]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except the 'I have a shotgun' abrasive banter is completely different from the argument she and Garrus would get in the elevators. In ME1, they both swung about race crimes and guilt. In ME2, Tali swings a shot gun.

in ME1 Garrus and Tali talked about the Geth, then Garrus' decision leaving C-Sec and Garrus telling Tali that he's noticed how Tali seems to attract a lot of looks. All of these discussions were VERY snarky. If you take Tali and Garrus to the Citadel tower and talk to Tali, Garrus actually seems less snarky. I think the ME2 "elevator" memory talk is completely appropriate.

[Alienmorph]

Period.

[Siansonea]

I don't think we should base our ideas about any character solely on "elevator banter" from ME1. That had the feel of "filler" to me when I played the first game.

[Mr.House]

mrsph wrote...

Do you want to hear something cool about the elevator banter?

It's generic. Every character says the same thing to each other. Wrex asks Tali why people are staring at her just as Ashley, Kaidan, and Garrus would. Same with the paragon/renegade crap.

which raises the question of why people wanted elevator banter back.

People want banter back period. I want banter like in DAO, but even then, even if the banter was generic ME, at least we had banter where in ME2 we have hardly any.

[Eradyn]

Mr.House wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Do you want to hear something cool about the elevator banter?

It's generic. Every character says the same thing to each other. Wrex asks Tali why people are staring at her just as Ashley, Kaidan, and Garrus would. Same with the paragon/renegade crap.

which raises the question of why people wanted elevator banter back.

People want banter back period. I want banter like in DAO, but even then, even if the banter was generic ME, at least we had banter where in ME2 we have hardly any.

Pretty much.

Although I'd like it back and improved and unique to the characters.  They had to get the VAs to say the lines in the first place; they'd might as well put a little more effort into at least making the dialogue unique to each character.

[Siansonea]

Mr.House wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Do you want to hear something cool about the elevator banter?

It's generic. Every character says the same thing to each other. Wrex asks Tali why people are staring at her just as Ashley, Kaidan, and Garrus would. Same with the paragon/renegade crap.

which raises the question of why people wanted elevator banter back.

People want banter back period. I want banter like in DAO, but even then, even if the banter was generic ME, at least we had banter where in ME2 we have hardly any.

I wish 'banter' wasn't so resource-intensive, as I think it adds a lot to the game. Unfortunately, there seems to be a limitation to the amount that can be implemented. While I like the game a lot, it's kind of annoying to hear the Kirosa salarian on Illium say the exact same thing every time you pass by him. We get it, Nassana Dantius didn't give you time to pack. It would be cool if the squad mates had some lines that were auto-triggered the first time they go through a certain area. Like if Miranda would make her comment about Omega or Illium without being prompted, but say something else on the second visit, and maybe something else in the Eternity bar that references what's going on in there. Like if Garrus makes a remark about the turian who is trying to put the moves on the quarian, or Samara saying something to Matriarch Aethyta if she's with Shepard in the bar. So many opportunities for nuance and depth, but the resources to implement it just aren't there.

[xlavaina]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Since it was a reply on a different line of conversation entirely,. your confusion is understandable, even predictable. And a false dichotomy is setting up an artificial either/or choice, which I did not do.

Except for the fact that you, you know, quoted my post. So I think my confusion is completely warranted. Here's a link for emphasis:

http://social.biowar...12187/6#5622360

Dean_the_Young wrote...
As Tali will tell you if you ask,

If you could provide evidence of this it would be much appreciated. I did read the thing about this in LotSB, but I hardly see how this relates to a relationship. If there is anything else specific that will be more clarifying.

Dean_the_Young wrote... 
and you can over hear with the Turian/Quarian pair in the Eternity lounge, Quarian/other species relationships often happen outside the suit, with the Quarian using nerv-stims in lieu of contact. In some respects, it's akin to mutual masturbation, but it's not necessarily any less intimate, or any less involved with the partner.

Okay. I do remember this. But now I'm really confused. My argument was that Tali was not directly interested in sex, and that Shepard, if anyone, was the instigator. Now you're saying... what exactly? That she was interested in a relationship other than a sexual one? Doesn't this support my argument? 

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Rejecting that option out of hand, and also not wanting to go through the acclimation process with Shepard to have safe, or at least safer, sex further down the road, and instead focusing on short-term solutions for immediate intimacy, while also talking about her desire for skin-on-skin contact for just this part? Yeah, she was thinking of sex.

That's not in the least a bad thing, mind you, and I'm frankly puzzled why anyone would think of it as such. But Tali certainly wasn't 'I want to chastly be naked outside of my suit with you, my skin against yours, with no sexual intent whatsoever.'

This is speculation. I honestly cannot directly agree with it, despite the fact it could be partly valid. Again, Tali's relationship with Shepard was originally and has continued to be based on respect. I can honestly neither denounce nor approve of the statement, because I don't know how true it actually is... 

Anyway bottom line, the romance is not a flaw in Tali's character, as a whole 

Modifié par xlavaina, 04 janvier 2011 - 08:30 .

[Rykoth]

So wait... because she didn't do it in ME1 then she shouldn't do it in ME2 or ME3?



lol okay.



So basically what you want is a lack of character progression. It's been and I will say this over and over again.



Two years.

Two years.

Two years.



You do not know what's happened in those two years. You don't even know what happened in between the time of ME1 and ME2, before the Normandy got lasered.



Dean, you seriously need to read better. I said on my first time I never interacted with Tali. I've played ME1 more then once, hell, I'm almost done another playthrough now, so that I can build my canon Shep. I just gave Tali the data file on the geth. She sounded more then just impressed, she sounded happy, thankful, and oh right... like maybe she has admiration for Shepard. I think I know what I'm talking about.



It isn't bad writing. There's two years, and really... an extra six months of not knowing what happened with various characters. Yeah, you get the cliffnotes, but emotionally? After Saren's defeat, I imagine emotions are running hot. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it didn't happen.



Otherwise Shepard should be dead of kidney failure for never going to the bathroom, and rank from never showering.

[xlavaina]

Essentially, its all subjective. We don't know what happened during those two years and therefore we can't know enough about Tali's personality to discern her exact feelings in he relationship with Shepard.

[Napalm Jim]

Here's what Patrick Weekes had to say about Tali's characterization in ME2 vs ME1:


Tali's character is, I hope, still recognizable as Tali. Drew, who wrote
her on ME1, didn't seem to have concerns about tone changes. She might
be a bit lighter in some areas than she was before, but a lot of that is
us trying to show that she's grown up in the last couple of years. If
you went off to college and blew up a Reaper freshman year, you might
have a somewhat bemused approach to life.


This is taken from ye olde Bioware forums, over a year ago and it's always made sense to me.

meforums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html

I personally also think that Tali warming up to a "raging jerk" Shepard doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.  Only thing that I can think is that since they wanted the game to appeal to players that hadn't played ME1 and that since the default Shep is Renegade, they didn't want anyone to feel as if they were being denied game content.  Nature of the beast and all that.

In an ideal story, sure, I'd say that there should be lots of choices in the game where the potential LI might think to themselves (even if the action isn't related to them directly), "Maybe Shepard isn't the guy/gal for me after all."

But that would really apply to all the Love Interests in the game, not just Tali.

[thesuperdarkone]

mrsph wrote...

Refusing to hand Tali the evidence isn't even recorded for import to Mass Effect 2 anyway. Most likely because Garrus and Tali weren't expected to be that popular. But since Garrus not being recruited can be imported into Mass Effect 2 they were able to keep his romance from triggering.

But even that was sloppily done. Only so much you can do with a budget and modern technology.

edit: No wonder Tali was nothing but exposition in Mass Effect. Drew wrote her 

 

Doesn't Tali say that she returned from her pilgrimage if you gave her the data or found something else if you didn't? If they did, they Bioware has to be really lazy