83 réponses à ce sujet

[willyallthewei]

I have to admit that I have not played all the classes in ME2, but recently after playing through the game with an infiltrator (using the widow), i found the game to be a lot tougher on insanity than with my vanguard. I was surprised after looking at the numbers to find that the Claymore upclose does significantly more damage than the widow (coming out of cloak, and landing only head shots with the widow)

I haven't found any threads talking about this yet, but is the vanguard class overpowered?

I use this build: 4 Heavy Charge. 4 Squad Cyro. 4 Champion. 4 Inferno ammo. 4 Geth Shield boost. 1 Shockwave (never touch it)

It seems to me that you're operating almost entirely at point blank range all game, and your DPS with the claymore reload trick has to be close if not more than a soldier with Rev.  I say this because Inferno ammo has an area of effect of 3 meters, charge does damage to barrier, and the melee damage up close is a serious bonus.

Defensively, Charge has half the cool down of Tech armor, so you regen the most health the fastest of all classes. 

And Finally, it seems that if you charge ahead into the rooms that NPCs spawn from you can cut fights much shorter.

It seems to be the case, but again I don't know very much about the soldier class, does anyone know if the vanguard with claymore, the reload trick can out DPS a soldier with heightened AR and a Revnant at anything but point blank? EDIT: I keep typing Rev, I'm also interested in the other AR, the Matlock.

If so it seems that Vanguard dish out the most damage and soak up the most as well, practically speaking, and can end fights a lot quicker with charge.

Modifié par willyallthewei, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:41 .

[sinosleep]

And now we come full circle.



This, is TWENTY pages of being told vanguards suck, charge sucks, shotguns suck, insanity is impossible, having my videos nit picked to death, and finally being accused of cheating.



Oh how far we've come in 11 months.

[Omega-202]

"Too strong" is really not a good question to ask.

Vanguards can trivialize Insanity, Soldiers can trivialize Insanity and so can Infiltrators, Sentinels and some Engineers and Adepts.

No class can't compete on the highest difficulty setting and you have 4 classes that definitely make the game a cake walk with enough practice. To only call out Vanguards is really not accurate.

To say that because you had a harder time with an Infiltrator, it is not just as "broken" is not a valid conclusion. If you look at some skilled Infiltrator videos, you'd see that they can clear encounters just as fast as most Vanguards.

[willyallthewei]

I'm not saying the other classes don't make insanity trivial, I'm saying it takes much longer to finish a mission you are somewhat familiar with using an infiltrator than a vanguard.

I would love to see these videos, the ones on youtube, i don't find to be any faster (if not slower) at clearing levels than I am.

The use of cover slows your advance down, when you snipe you also tend to run out of ammunition more quickly because you're not moving across the room as frantically and therefore you have to leave cover to grab ammo - that lengthens fights.

you also tend to switch weapons as an infiltrator more because of the nature of SMGs vs. shields and snipers vs. Armor whereas shotguns such as the claymore have 1.25x against all defenses. These things all take real life time, and again, the damage output of a widow, IMO was underwhelming. I find the viper to have much higher DPS because it is automatic, but then you run into magazine clip size issues as you unload 12 rounds into an elite to drop them.

I would add that I'm not saying Vanguard is overpowered, but I'm suggesting it maybe based on dps, health regeneration and the nature of how spawn points work. I am actually very interested in DPS if someone could do a cross class comparison because before picking up infiltrator i thought for sure that class dropped bad guys quicker, I was wrong.

Modifié par willyallthewei, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:17 .

[Xan Kreigor Mk2]

IMO, vanguards the hardest on insanity, but far from impossible. the only reason it is hardest, is b/c all of its useful skills are shared, so other classes with the same skills, but better main skills would be easier

[sinosleep]

It's most useful skill is charge, no other class has charge.

[goofyomnivore]

sinosleep wrote...

And now we come full circle.

This, is TWENTY pages of being told vanguards suck, charge sucks, shotguns suck, insanity is impossible, having my videos nit picked to death, and finally being accused of cheating.

Oh how far we've come in 11 months.

LOL That thread is pretty funny. My first time playing ME2 was with a Vanguard and it felt fine(I played on Insanity too). Before Horizon was rough, Archangel and The Warlord Missions gave me some trouble, but after Horizon when you can go to Tuchanka and Illium to get the upgrades/Scimitar it was a breeze I thought. I do remember the biotic field part of the suicide mission being pretty tough too, cus I picked the Claymore, but never really liked it -- so it sat on the shelf. Basically screwing myself out of a long range weapon. I missed picking up the Tempest , so I had the Shurinken(?) and Carnifex.

As for the class being overpowered? All the classes are overpowered when played right, but I do believe each class has a different learning curve, that consists of a lot of different variables from mechanics to play style. Vanguard looks a lot flashier than most classes, but I don't think it is any more efficient than other classes. A Vanguard may clean a room up quicker, but an Engineer can CC a room, an Infiltrator can Cloak+Cover, or a Sentinel can just refresh Tech Armor and take almost 0 damage. Just whatever you prefer, unstoppable force or immovable object.

[Omega-202]

willyallthewei wrote...

I would love to see these videos, the ones on youtube, i don't find to be any faster (if not slower) at clearing levels than I am.

Faster, maybe not, but often they're safer.  If you're looking for comparable speed, look at the CQC Infiltrators, not the ones that sit back and snipe.  

What you said about cover and weapon switching is not really valid for other Infiltrator playstyles, especially shotgun toting ones.  

[Lord Phoebus]

I think it depends on the player and their experience with shooters. I play a lot of snipers in shooters so I found the Infiltrator to be the easiest, though you have to do the most killing with an Infiltrator since a Vanguard can often reach the points where the enemies stop spawning before the other classes, Tali's loyalty mission is one where a Vanguard probably only has to kill 1/3 of the enemies of the Infiltrator.



I found I picked up the Vanguard quick too, but a lot of that was due to skills developed using a shotgun in Doom and towards the end it was pretty easy, though I died quite a bit more on that run until I got used to judging arcs of fire when you jump and learned how to use cryoed enemies as cover.



Oddly enough Sentinel has probably given me the most trouble, though most people find it the easiest. It was pretty easy once I had the cooldown bonuses, hard shields and a shotgun, but it took a while to get used to playing a class that really had to depend on powers more than weapons.

[lazuli]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

I think it depends on the player and their experience with shooters. I play a lot of snipers in shooters so I found the Infiltrator to be the easiest, though you have to do the most killing with an Infiltrator since a Vanguard can often reach the points where the enemies stop spawning before the other classes, Tali's loyalty mission is one where a Vanguard probably only has to kill 1/3 of the enemies of the Infiltrator.
 

Tali's loyalty mission went from one of my least favorites to just a meh mission once I discovered that.  Also, you can skip plenty of it with an Infiltrator, or any other class.  Cloak or use a defensive power or medigel to get through enemy lines and then trigger dialogue with Tali.  I cruised through last night as a Barrier Adept.

[Joshua Regalado]

Believe it or not, I had an easier time with insanity as a vanguard than as a sentinel. It might be because of the long cooldown of tech armor versus the short cooldown of biotic charge.

[mcsupersport]

lazuli wrote...

Lord Phoebus wrote...

I think it depends on the player and their experience with shooters. I play a lot of snipers in shooters so I found the Infiltrator to be the easiest, though you have to do the most killing with an Infiltrator since a Vanguard can often reach the points where the enemies stop spawning before the other classes, Tali's loyalty mission is one where a Vanguard probably only has to kill 1/3 of the enemies of the Infiltrator.
 

Tali's loyalty mission went from one of my least favorites to just a meh mission once I discovered that.  Also, you can skip plenty of it with an Infiltrator, or any other class.  Cloak or use a defensive power or medigel to get through enemy lines and then trigger dialogue with Tali.  I cruised through last night as a Barrier Adept.

Fun thing about Engineers on that mission is you can just send your tech drone to the door/room and it will trigger the cutscene for you.  It has to be yours and not Tali's but a great way to skip the fight.

As a side note, you have to be careful with your drone on triggering scenes you don't want.  I started an engineer tonight and was seeing how far I could get without guns on the tutorial mission escaping the station.  When you get the grenade launcher I wanted to try to do the mission without firing so I popped a drone on the mechs, well it triggered the dialague of the next room and locked the door to the elevator down, trapping me upstairs.  Had to restart level, which luckily wasn't far, but I didn't do that again.



The greatest factor of how well a class plays on Insanity is the skill of the player with that class.  Soldier is by far the easiest to pick up, so for the vast majority it will be the fastest, BUT all classes can be very fast if used by a skillful player.  Even Adepts and Engineers, which most hold as underpowered or weak, can be played aggressively and quickly on all levels by a skilled player.

[Kronner]

Probably yes.
Vanguard will not die if played right, does not have to spend much time in cover and can Charge 95+% enemies and kill them very quickly. Vanguard certainly is a killing machine. The first 3 or so hours of NG+ is the only time when you are somewhat vulnerable - shields go down noticeably faster etc.

Charge is basically a superhero power, usable and viable in at least 95% of all the fights. Soldier and Sentinel are similar. Adept and Engineer require more "thinking" (squad, power usage) and they do not "spam" a single power to win all the fights, so they also offer the most variety. Infiltrator is in between, not so squad dependant but using just Cloak would certainly prolong all fights. But in the end, all classes are powerhouses if played right.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 janvier 2011 - 09:02 .

[Bozorgmehr]

mcsupersport wrote...

As a side note, you have to be careful with your drone on triggering scenes you don't want.  I started an engineer tonight and was seeing how far I could get without guns on the tutorial mission escaping the station.  When you get the grenade launcher I wanted to try to do the mission without firing so I popped a drone on the mechs, well it triggered the dialague of the next room and locked the door to the elevator down, trapping me upstairs.  Had to restart level, which luckily wasn't far, but I didn't do that again.

LOL, didn't know you could use drones like that

Near the end of the IFF mission, try to run past the first Scion couple towards the next - if you die, your squad respawns right next to the first couple: squadies die within 1-2 s, Shepard too if (s)he doesn't move fast.

BTW; I don't understand people arguing the Vanguard is powerful and kills fast because they have an edge when it comes to stopping enemy respawn. If you like killing stuff, don't stop respawn. More enemies = more fun!

[sinosleep]

Bozorgmehr wrote..

LOL, didn't know you could use drones like that

Near the end of the IFF mission, try to run past the first Scion couple towards the next - if you die, your squad respawns right next to the first couple: squadies die within 1-2 s, Shepard too if (s)he doesn't move fast.

BTW; I don't understand people arguing the Vanguard is powerful and kills fast because they have an edge when it comes to stopping enemy respawn. If you like killing stuff, don't stop respawn. More enemies = more fun!

Yup, I even say as much in my tutorial vids. Once I figured out what enemies caused respawn to much I go out of my way not to charge them for the most part.

[Zahe]

On first Vanguard playthrough on Insanity I had mixed levels of success. Either I completely steamrolled everything with close to no effort or I died several times due to me being to reckless. I believe that once people are able to find that perfect balance Vanguard can be one of best classes ingame. But overpowered? I would say no.

[Sandbox47]

Overpowered compared to what? A thorian kreeper? That and the alternative to adept (forgot the name of class) are by far the weakest things in the game.

[Aynien]

willyallthewei wrote...

It seems to be the case, but again I don't know very much about the soldier class, does anyone know if the vanguard with claymore, the reload trick can out DPS a soldier with heightened AR and a Revnant at anything but point blank?

It may be so, but it's a trick that glitchs the game mechanics to do something that wasn't supposed to do. I wouldn't enjoy playing the game this way, because it makes things alot easy. Also if you think this makes the class so op, why don't you stop using it?

[willyallthewei]

There is a dev post on this forum that says the reload trick is by intention. It's an animation cancel, its in plenty of action games (such as ninja gaiden).

[sinosleep]

Aynien wrote...

It may be so, but it's a trick that glitchs the game mechanics to do something that wasn't supposed to do. I wouldn't enjoy playing the game this way, because it makes things alot easy. Also if you think this makes the class so op, why don't you stop using it?

you've been misinformed

http://social.biowar...index/4840984/5

lead gameplay designer Christina Norman wrote...

We wouldn't significantly change the gameplay of the claymore (or any weapon) with a patch. That would take something away from players who like weapons the way they are.

The claymore is still a great weapon for charge heavy vanguards. GPS is also great, and if that let's you take a different weapon on the collector ship, is that a bad thing?



The reload trick is by design. It isn't a glitch. I know because I put it in on purpose!

lead gameplay designer Christina
Norman wrote...

The reload trick is an example of canceling animations. This is a pretty common technique though it is primarily used in fighting games:



Here is an example of it in use in street fighter

http://www.eventhubs...3-third-strike/



If you don't like the reload trick, by all means don't use it! It is supposed to reward coordination and timing.

lead gameplay designer Christina
Norman wrote...

About the reload trick and documentation.



99% of players will have no interest in the reload trick, it's a very advanced feature, that is only useful with certain playstyles and weapons. It doesn't make sense to present that information to all users in documentation. Documentation is generally for core gameplay concepts that you need to understand to play the game.



I purposefully mentioned this trick on the forums because I did want players to be aware of it and evidently it worked (everyone here at least seems aware of it). In my view the forums are a great way to distribute gameplay information that it doesn't make sense to include in the game.



With that said, I am not excusing myself for any situation where players are confused by information presented in game (i.e. charge not benefiting from biotic cooldown reducers). That was an error on my part, and for ME3 I will do a better job of communicating vital information that does matter (like cooldowns, and the effects of upgrades).

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Vanguard is a high-risk, high-reward class in its intent, and that's exactly what it delivers. If you know how to mitigate the risks, it can still be high-reward, but at the same time if you play it too safe you lose many of the advantages.



It's devastating in the hands of someone who can use it right, but as a class it isn't 'overpowered': for every speedrun of, say, the Geth Colossus fight, there's a dozen or more failures in which a mis-aimed, mis-timed Charge got someone killed instead. There's rarely a point in the game in which the Vanguard's greatest strength can't also get it killed.

[Aynien]

I would love to have a trick to cancel "animations" in real life too. C'mon common sense? This just looks like a bad excuse for not being able to fix such thing.

[sinosleep]

Except for the little fact that it's been used in a plethora of games before it, fighting games in particular. In fact, they are often added or removed for different ittirations in the name of balance. Not only that, but it's gotten to the point where if you are playing against anyone that's ever heard of blocking, or the computer on anything other than ezmode you basically CAN'T land supercombos unless you cancel into them. So while they continue to go undocumented in the manuals that come with the games, the training modes now actually include canceling tutorials for setting up super combos.

If that doesn't make it clear that it's a common and more importantly INTENDED practice in gaming then nothing will and you are free to go about being ignorant of the facts.

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:32 .

[Aynien]

sinosleep wrote...

If that doesn't make it clear that it's a common and more importantly INTENDED practice in gaming then nothing will and you are free to go about being ignorant of the facts.

There's a difference in being able to escape an endless combo in fighting games and being able to defy the physic and cancel the act of reload a weapon.
The first being to avoid situations like this from happening and spoiling the fun, but the second is just a unrelated side effect that they found easy to acknowledge, it than fix it.

[sinosleep]

Um, did you even read what I wrote? I'm not talking about ESCAPING combos, I'm talking about STARTING them. Which, btw, also defy physics by taking something like say a jumping dragon punch, CANCELING the animation, and then starting a super combo instead of finishing the dragon punch.

It sounds like exactly what it is, animation canceling.

p.s. The devs actually TOLD US about it in the first place. No one was doing it before they came out and told us it was possible.

http://social.biowar...index/1006000/8

Christina Norman wrote...

Great videos sinosleep. Your charge playstyle is quite similar to my own, but you die less! You've definitely shown that charge can be viable on insanity, and can help you clear content quickly.

When I play my Vanguard on insanity I use my secondary skills fairly often (pull shockwave) as well as all the ammo types. Charge is a key vanguard skill but not the only one.

One advanced tip I can give for vanguard players is, you can cancel out of a reload animation to melee an enemy and you will still reload as long as you've completed 60% of the reload animation. It's tricky to master, definitely for more twitchy players, but it really helps with the claymore.

Vanguard on insanity is definitely not for everyone, but that's why we have 6 classes.

If it was a glitch why were THEY the ones who brought it up and not the community? 

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:39 .