83 réponses à ce sujet

[Kronner]

Aynien wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

If that doesn't make it clear that it's a common and more importantly INTENDED practice in gaming then nothing will and you are free to go about being ignorant of the facts.

There's a difference in being able to escape an endless combo in fighting games and being able to defy the physic and cancel the act of reload a weapon.
The first being to avoid situations like this from happening and spoiling the fun, but the second is just a unrelated side effect that they found easy to acknowledge, it than fix it.

You do relize that the "trick" can be done with all weapons, precisely after 60% of the animation has been completed (you hear the sound, the weapon is ready to fire since the thermal clip is in, and you can cancel out the animation when Shepard puts the weapon all the way down to its default horizontal position). This is not a bug or glitch. It was put in the game by lead gameplay designer. She was the one who revealed this trick to all of us back in January/February 2010. If you don't like it, then don't use it. But arguing with the person who actually made the game will only result in you looking like a fool. Also, Christina Norman has no problem saying there is a bug in ME2, as evidenced by the Stasis bug, which she confirmed is a bug/exploit. So your ****** poor argument has no basis.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .

[sinosleep]

Kronner wrote...

You do relize that the "trick" can be done with all weapons, precisely after 60% of the animation has been completed (you hear the sound, the weapon is ready to fire since the thermal clip is in, and you can cancel out the animation when Shepard puts the weapon all the way down to its default horizontal position). This is not a bug or glitch. It was put in the game by lead gameplay designer. She was the one who revealed this trick to all of us back in January/February 2010. If you don't like it, then don't use it. But arguing with the person who actually made the game will only result in you looking like a fool. Also, Christina Norman has no problem saying there is a bug in ME2, as evidenced by the Stasis bug, which she confirmed is a bug/exploit. So your ****** poor argument has no basis.

She also acknowledge the archon visor bug. It's ridiculous how far people will go when they simply refuse to believe something. She's shown over and over again to have no problem whatsoever with acknowledging bugs.

[Amyntas]

Raw dps don't really determine how powerful a class is. Vanguards are certainly very mobile and strong, but rely on other classes to overcome defenses. The Vanguard is overpowered in the sense that no other class even comes close to the fun you can have as Vanguard imo ;-)

Modifié par Amyntas, 03 janvier 2011 - 03:05 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Amyntas wrote...

Vanguards are certainly very mobile and strong, but rely on other classes to overcome defenses.

Why need help with defenses? Claymore one-shots 90% of enemies (GPS, Eviscerator and Katana can do it too, but need an extra melee tab) > this is on Insanity.
Enemies have less health and defenses at easier difficulty levels, making one-shotting easier with all shotguns (except Scimitar).

The Vanguard is overpowered in the sense that no other class even comes close to the fun you can have as Vanguard imo ;-)

Charge never gets old, but the other classes are equally fun; I love tossing enemies around with an Adepts, or harass enemies with Combat Drones and AI Hacking playing an Engineer. With practice all classes can be played at a Vanguardish level of craziness.

[Sandbox47]

Really? Can anyone actually hit anything with a shotugn? As far as I can tell it's a blunt weapon and nothing more.

[Aynien]

sinosleep wrote...
 
p.s. The devs actually TOLD US about it in the first place. No one was doing it before they came out and told us it was possible.

If it was a glitch why were THEY the ones who brought it up and not the community?

sinosleep wrote...

Um, did you even read what I wrote?.

Aynien wrote...
This just looks like a bad excuse for not being able to fix such thing.

I have seen a bunch of games where people found out about how to cancel animation to give them a edge and the game company made fixes for that to maintain balance(mind you most are mmos).

I think this will be a pointless argue, where we both will keeping arguing for the sake of argue...let's just keep this like a matter of opinion: You will keep saying this is perfectly fine, while I'll keep seeing as glitch.

sinosleep wrote...

Um, did you even read what I wrote? I'm not talking about ESCAPING combos, I'm talking about STARTING them. Which, btw, also defy physics by taking something like say a jumping dragon punch, CANCELING the animation, and then starting a super combo instead of finishing the dragon punch.

Sorry, I'm not a big fan of fighting games '-'

[sinosleep]

Sandbox47 wrote...

Really? Can anyone actually hit anything with a shotugn? As far as I can tell it's a blunt weapon and nothing more.

Sinosleep
Kronner1
OniGanon
ramsenc
MrBozorgmehr
jwalker1862
Gun0fDis

Whole lot of people can hit things with shotguns. ...

[Aynien]

Kronner wrote...

You do relize that the "trick" can be done with all weapons, precisely after 60% of the animation has been completed (you hear the sound, the weapon is ready to fire since the thermal clip is in, and you can cancel out the animation when Shepard puts the weapon all the way down to its default horizontal position). This is not a bug or glitch. It was put in the game by lead gameplay designer. She was the one who revealed this trick to all of us back in January/February 2010. If you don't like it, then don't use it. But arguing with the person who actually made the game will only result in you looking like a fool. Also, Christina Norman has no problem saying there is a bug in ME2, as evidenced by the Stasis bug, which she confirmed is a bug/exploit. So your ****** poor argument has no basis.

Sorry but I'm used to play games where small things like this are fixed, instead of being encouraged. Call me ignorant idiot for all I care, but it does seens like a bug that they don't wanted to fix. So why not take credit for it, instead of let people find it out?

[Zahe]

Because they have never had any problem admitting something was bugged before. It isn't a glitch, end of discussion.

[Kronner]

Sandbox47 wrote...

Really? Can anyone actually hit anything with a shotugn? As far as I can tell it's a blunt weapon and nothing more.

Well, you are missing out on a great deal of fun; try to use them in close combat, there's nothing better.

Aynien wrote...

Sorry but I'm used to play games where small things like this are fixed, instead of being encouraged. Call me ignorant idiot for all I care, but it does seens like a bug that they don't wanted to fix. So why not take credit for it, instead of let people find it out?

Yeah, because saying "it is a bug, but since it is a SP game, we are not gonna fix it" is so hard. Oh wait, she did just that with actual bugs like Stasis' Fall of Death.
But whatever you think, what do I care, if you do not want to believe devs then it's only your problem.

[jwalker]

Aynien wrote...

I would love to have a trick to cancel "animations" in real life too. C'mon common sense? This just looks like a bad excuse for not being able to fix such thing.

The lead game designer settled the discussion about being a glitch or a feature. There's nothing to fix. Of course, you can choose to believe her or not.  You can also choose to use it or not in your games.
Regarding the "cancel animations in real life" thing, this is not the right forum to discuss it.

[pcrisipm]

I don't see what's the big deal with the reload trick.

1) it's not exactly hard to pull off. does take some practice, but so does mastering charge (I used to die a lot at my 1st vanguard runs)

2) it's not a game changer -- I for one rarely use it. the closeness of vanguard combat means your first shot is most of the times your last (especially with the claymore) and even when it isn't you can use your squad to finish them off

3) this is single player, so it's not like it gives other players an unfair advantage over you

4) you're playing for fun, so play it for fun, use whatever 'tricks' you think are fun

5) the reload trick is not essential for a successful vanguard -- many here will tell you (and already did) that they were already having lots of fun playing vanguard well before the devs told us about the reload trick

6) if fixes are to be made, there's plenty of other issues more pressing than the reload trick -- which isn't a bug at all



those are my 2cent

[Bourne Endeavor]

I am your polar opposite than TC. I found Infiltrator absolutely dominated Insanity to the extent I checked the difficulty setting once or twice just to be certain I had not accidently lowered it. Perhaps your shots were off or you did not utilize your squad mates efficiently because the majority of my targets dropped from a single Widow snipe. There were exceptions, especially later in the game and anything with Barrior/Armor meant I was shelling at least three rounds but overall. I was hardly touched.



Everyone is difficult. Some perceive the Adept has monstrously deadly whilst others chastise it as the worst class in the game. It is more probable you are better suited to the tailored skills of a Vanguard than the class being overpowered.

[PrinceLionheart]

Aynien wrote...

I would love to have a trick to cancel "animations" in real life too. C'mon common sense? This just looks like a bad excuse for not being able to fix such thing.

I'd love to be able to do biotic charges in real life. Not to be snarky but what does cancelling animations have to do with real life? 

[Ahglock]

I am not a fan of animation cancellation tricks being in games, but they are. I use them if I know about them. The claymore would not feel like an upgrade without it, which feels a bit buggy to me. But that is more of a balance bug. If you are giving up assault rifle or sniper rifle access to get a better shotgun it should always feel better. But whatever, with the trick which I am getting fairly good at it is IMO the most fun shotgun to use.

[willyallthewei]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

I am your polar opposite than TC. I found Infiltrator absolutely dominated Insanity to the extent I checked the difficulty setting once or twice just to be certain I had not accidently lowered it. Perhaps your shots were off or you did not utilize your squad mates efficiently because the majority of my targets dropped from a single Widow snipe. There were exceptions, especially later in the game and anything with Barrior/Armor meant I was shelling at least three rounds but overall. I was hardly touched.

Everyone is difficult. Some perceive the Adept has monstrously deadly whilst others chastise it as the worst class in the game. It is more probable you are better suited to the tailored skills of a Vanguard than the class being overpowered.

I was on the number 2 clan in the world at rainbow six  and was on a Cal-M playoff team for CS. I'm not trying to brag, simply trying to eliminate the idea that I'm a terrible shot.

I'm not complaining about most enemies, because most enemies die instantly with any weapon, from any class. My infiltrator is the following build.

4 Assassination cloak
4 Assassin (passive)
4 Warp Ammo (heavy)
4 Incinerate
4 Squad disruptor
1 AI Hacking (never use)

I have +60% upgrades, +10% headshot
I have the widow, phalanx, tempest/locust depending on mission

I always bring Miranda for the added damage bonus. I also have max tech damage upgrades and all the goodies.

When i lineup a shot on an engineerer and pop him in the head i expect him to go down. When i see full shields fall and only some health go down, I am genuinely shocked. I know I can overload the guy, but i want use my CC and squad abilities on the weaklings and assassinate the strongest guy. That works with vanguard, you can have your teammates CC the crap out of the surrounding bad guys and you can pick one person to kill instantly.

I hate waiting for cloak's 6 second CD so that I can fire up another widow shot at max damage, its absurd to me that sometimes it takes 3 widow shots to drop an elite because the widow has such a miserable ROF and i feel like a bullet is wasted when I shoot without cloak.

Finally the gun switching, between SMG and Snipe to take out shields/armor and then to pull out the phalanx when I'm out of ammo is beyond annoying. Somehow and I don't know if empirical evidence can be produced on this, I feel like Vanguards are better able to pick up dropped ammo than infiltrators. Do they have spawn limits? do they disappear if not picked up after a certain amount of time?

I don't know, I definitely did not have a "hard" time with infiltrator, just a much slower time killing things than i expected (I literally thought Infiltrator was the highest DPS class like ME1, honestly this whole thread may have stemmed from my unrealistic expectations for infiltrator)

Modifié par willyallthewei, 03 janvier 2011 - 06:06 .

[ryoldschool]

The discussion of the reload trick is a replay of a few months ago "Patching the Claymore". A different set of folks debated with Sinosleep and Kronner about it and finally Christina posted in that thread to settle it. For PC players its kinda a bonus, but for xbox players it makes the decision to take the claymore for vanguard a bit of a problem because the "feature" is difficult to practially apply using the limits of the controller ( aim, press reload, press melee with the same right thumb ).



This is unfortunate as the xbox is also limited when using powers if you don't want to use the power-wheel. ( this has been discussed a lot of places on this forum - dpad design for squad powers is not reliable a lot of the times ).



I say its unfortunate because xbox players can use all the other guns with no problems, but for the claymore to be the most effective choice ( compared to taking sniper or assult rifle training ) then by data posted in sinosleep's weapon comparison thread you need to use the reload trick to maximize its effectiveness.



gps no charge: 8.2 seconds



gps charged on first shot: 8.35 seconds



evi: 8.433 seconds



scimi: 10.733



katana: 9.483



claymore reload trick: 7.317



claymore: 10.1



The claymore makes it's triumphant return as king of the hill!

__________________________________________________________________________

__________________________________________________________________________



Shotgun comparison test vol. 2 vs shields











uncharged GPS 3.517



first shot charged GPS 1.9



evi 6.967



scimi4.9



katana 4.683



reload trick claymore 3.65



claymore7.367

[willyallthewei]

Aynien wrote...

Kronner wrote...

You do relize that the "trick" can be done with all weapons, precisely after 60% of the animation has been completed (you hear the sound, the weapon is ready to fire since the thermal clip is in, and you can cancel out the animation when Shepard puts the weapon all the way down to its default horizontal position). This is not a bug or glitch. It was put in the game by lead gameplay designer. She was the one who revealed this trick to all of us back in January/February 2010. If you don't like it, then don't use it. But arguing with the person who actually made the game will only result in you looking like a fool. Also, Christina Norman has no problem saying there is a bug in ME2, as evidenced by the Stasis bug, which she confirmed is a bug/exploit. So your ****** poor argument has no basis.

Sorry but I'm used to play games where small things like this are fixed, instead of being encouraged. Call me ignorant idiot for all I care, but it does seens like a bug that they don't wanted to fix. So why not take credit for it, instead of let people find it out?

Do you tend to play RPGs and MMO's more than faster paced games? That would explain your lack of comfort with the concept.

Animation canceling is critical in fighting games and action games. Top action games such as Bayoneta, Ninja Gaiden and DMC all require canceling as a part of gameplay.

All 2D fighters and all advanced 3D fighters from Street fighter to Tekken require canceling as a defensive strategy and as a strategy to link Juggles after launch.

Recently shooters such as Gears of War have employed similar animation canceling, and specifically, most shooters tend to use the animation canceling to shorten or in GOW, lengthen the reload animation (so that you can preserve active reload).

Modifié par willyallthewei, 03 janvier 2011 - 06:23 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

@willy- The problem seems to be your expectation that Infiltrator will be similar in killing speed and/or technique with the Vanguard. Instead of trying to assassinate the elites with cloak and cc the mooks, I suggest you widow head shot the mooks to kill them WITHOUT using cloak. While taking out mooks very quickly you can use Incineration Blast and party powers on the elites to weaken them. (You CAN also use the reload trick to launch your incineration blast while reloading the Widow but it's not necessary.) By the time the mooks are all dead (one shot to the head each) then the elites should be easy to mop up.

IF you could one shot elites on Insanity just like mooks then they wouldn't be elites... they'd be mooks.

Don't bother Cloaking for every shot... 6 seconds is too long to wait between shots and your position can be overrun. Besides, mooks don't need the cloak damage to kill. If you make liberal use of Incineration Blast then you really won't run out of ammo very much.

Also, keep Disruptor Ammo on your SMG (Tempest preferably) for taking down shields. After killing some mooks, cloak on over to that Engineer that is pissing you off and unload on him at point blank range with the Tempest while cloaked. You will drop him fast. More fun anyways.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:32 .

[willyallthewei]

Scrogu, thats the strategy I eventually resorted to, and you're right about my expectations. What bothered me before really, was that I kept comparing the infiltrator in ME2 to the DPS machine that is the infiltrator from ME1 and the DW rogue from DOA.

I had squad cyro build and retrained into inceneration blast for exactly what you're talking about, and you're right, its a lot better.

Modifié par willyallthewei, 03 janvier 2011 - 06:35 .

[Aynien]

jwalker wrote...

The lead game designer settled the discussion about being a glitch or a feature. There's nothing to fix. Of course, you can choose to believe her or not.  You can also choose to use it or not in your games.
Regarding the "cancel animations in real life" thing, this is not the right forum to discuss it.

PrinceLionheart wrote...


I'd love to be able to do
biotic charges in real life. Not to be snarky but what does cancelling
animations have to do with real life? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

Guys, that was an sarcasm...pls do not take everything I say seriously....

Kronner wrote...

Yeah, because saying "it is a bug, but
since it is a SP game, we are not gonna fix it" is so hard. Oh wait, she
did just that with actual bugs like Stasis' Fall of Death.
But whatever you think, what do I care, if you do not want to believe devs then it's only your problem.

It's not a matter of beliving or not, it's more not being used to. I failed in my first replay to make it clear that it was my opinion and I apology for it. I wasn't trying to contradict everything you guys know, hell you know more about this game than i'll ever do, what I wanted was to ask if he was confortable by doing it, since some one already pointed out that using the reload cancel was the only way for claymore be usefull, just ignore me and move along

willyallthewei wrote...

Do you tend to play RPGs and MMO's more than faster paced games? That would explain your lack of comfort with the concept.

Animation
canceling is critical in fighting games and action games. Top action
games such as Bayoneta, Ninja Gaiden and DMC all require canceling as a
part of gameplay.

All 2D fighters and all advanced 3D fighters
from Street fighter to Tekken require canceling as a defensive strategy
and as a strategy to link Juggles after launch.

Recently shooters
such as Gears of War have employed similar animation canceling, and
specifically, most shooters tend to use the animation canceling to
shorten or in GOW, lengthen the reload animation (so that you can
preserve active reload).

Got it, thanx for understanding me.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Hmm, that is strange. I will concede the Infiltrator has a tendency to be inconsistent damage wise however for the most part. I would drop a Collector from a single warp powered Widow shot during the Suicide Mission. Most grunt level mercs would have similar results with the exception being the mid tier. I suppose this could be attributed to my picking up the Sniper upgrade from LotSB but otherwise. I could one shot things relatively easily. Perhaps Thane was a better shot than I gave him credit or Kasumi was. (Never used Miranda in this run)

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:53 .

[IrishGunman]

The point of Vanguard is charge, knock people back, and get the hell out of Dodge before the enemy shoots back.

[PrinceLionheart]

Aynien wrote...

Guys, that was an sarcasm...pls do not take everything I say seriously....

From my experience, sarcasm isn't quite as effective when typed unless you throw in some type of indication.