83 réponses à ce sujet

[willyallthewei]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Hmm, that is strange. I will concede the Infiltrator has a tendency to be inconsistent damage wise however for the most part. I would drop a Collector from a single warp powered Widow shot during the Suicide Mission. Most grunt level mercs would have similar results with the exception being the mid tier. I suppose this could be attributed to my picking up the Sniper upgrade from LotSB but otherwise. I could one shot things relatively easily. Perhaps Thane was a better shot than I gave him credit or Kasumi was. (Never used Miranda in this run)

I also have the LotsB bonus (thats why i said +60%, not +50%), and yes the widow never fails to 1-hit kill Collector drones and mercenary grunts, my experience is similar to yours. But I was surprised about how robust  elite level units such as an asari commando/centurion/engineers are against the infiltrator. They take multiple (sometimes as many as 3) shots to bring down the widow, and this annoys me, because a Vanguard going a 100mph burns through everything so fast, and I was used to that killing speed.

Modifié par willyallthewei, 03 janvier 2011 - 09:24 .

[Ahglock]

ryoldschool wrote...

The discussion of the reload trick is a replay of a few months ago "Patching the Claymore". A different set of folks debated with Sinosleep and Kronner about it and finally Christina posted in that thread to settle it. For PC players its kinda a bonus, but for xbox players it makes the decision to take the claymore for vanguard a bit of a problem because the "feature" is difficult to practially apply using the limits of the controller ( aim, press reload, press melee with the same right thumb ).

This is unfortunate as the xbox is also limited when using powers if you don't want to use the power-wheel. ( this has been discussed a lot of places on this forum - dpad design for squad powers is not reliable a lot of the times ).

I say its unfortunate because xbox players can use all the other guns with no problems, but for the claymore to be the most effective choice ( compared to taking sniper or assult rifle training ) then by data posted in sinosleep's weapon comparison thread you need to use the reload trick to maximize its effectiveness.

Yeah I remember that thread and the numbers were illuminating.  And shotguns are very well balanced overall.  I just disagree with some people on wether or not a upgrade weapon should be balanced with the other weapons that closely.  I don't really care about the firepower weapons being unbalnced since that was the intended goal, but I always thought the upgrade weapons should be a clear best in their class. 

[Ahglock]

willyallthewei wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Hmm, that is strange. I will concede the Infiltrator has a tendency to be inconsistent damage wise however for the most part. I would drop a Collector from a single warp powered Widow shot during the Suicide Mission. Most grunt level mercs would have similar results with the exception being the mid tier. I suppose this could be attributed to my picking up the Sniper upgrade from LotSB but otherwise. I could one shot things relatively easily. Perhaps Thane was a better shot than I gave him credit or Kasumi was. (Never used Miranda in this run)

I also have the LotsB bonus (thats why i said +60%, not +50%), and yes the widow never fails to 1-hit kill Collector drones and mercenary grunts, my experience is similar to yours. But I was surprised about how robust  elite level units such as an asari commando/centurion/engineers are against the infiltrator. They take multiple (sometimes as many as 3) shots to bring down the widow, and this annoys me, because a Vanguard going a 100mph burns through everything so fast, and I was used to that killing speed.

I don't one shot engineer's with the claymore on my vanguard even with head shots at point blank range and the head shot gear.  Sure I kill them quick, but it is like shoot, melee(reload trick), shoot.  Maybe after maxed melee it is just shoot, melee(reload trick) but I am nost sure on that, my armor choices are more appearance based than effectiveness.  So I never expected the wido to one shot as a infiltrator similar mobs. 

[Kronner]

Ahglock wrote...

Yeah I remember that thread and the numbers were illuminating.  And shotguns are very well balanced overall.  I just disagree with some people on wether or not a upgrade weapon should be balanced with the other weapons that closely.  I don't really care about the firepower weapons being unbalnced since that was the intended goal, but I always thought the upgrade weapons should be a clear best in their class. 

Agreed, it would only make sense. I mean for me Claymore is clearly the best shotgun in the game, but it should be even better compared to others. Maybe up the base damage to ~600 (from 400) to boost damage even further.
Widow is not clearly the best SR either (although it is the best SR for me) as Viper has more effective ammo, works better with Infiltrator's slowdown zoom effect and kills tough enemies faster. Boosting the Widow damage would also help. And Revenant? Mattock clearly outperforms it. I still like Rev better, but Mattock is more effective anyway.

[Sashimi_taco]

I somehow played the game the first time play vanguard never quite knowing how to do it. I just used my pistol a lot and used ammo powers. Charge really didn't make sense to me since it did like no damage. However i am fully aware that i must be missing something.

[willyallthewei]

Ahglock wrote...

willyallthewei wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Hmm, that is strange. I will concede the Infiltrator has a tendency to be inconsistent damage wise however for the most part. I would drop a Collector from a single warp powered Widow shot during the Suicide Mission. Most grunt level mercs would have similar results with the exception being the mid tier. I suppose this could be attributed to my picking up the Sniper upgrade from LotSB but otherwise. I could one shot things relatively easily. Perhaps Thane was a better shot than I gave him credit or Kasumi was. (Never used Miranda in this run)

I also have the LotsB bonus (thats why i said +60%, not +50%), and yes the widow never fails to 1-hit kill Collector drones and mercenary grunts, my experience is similar to yours. But I was surprised about how robust  elite level units such as an asari commando/centurion/engineers are against the infiltrator. They take multiple (sometimes as many as 3) shots to bring down the widow, and this annoys me, because a Vanguard going a 100mph burns through everything so fast, and I was used to that killing speed.

I don't one shot engineer's with the claymore on my vanguard even with head shots at point blank range and the head shot gear.  Sure I kill them quick, but it is like shoot, melee(reload trick), shoot.  Maybe after maxed melee it is just shoot, melee(reload trick) but I am nost sure on that, my armor choices are more appearance based than effectiveness.  So I never expected the wido to one shot as a infiltrator similar mobs. 

You're right but thats okay for the Vandy because of 4 things.  1.) The second shot with the reload trick comes out much faster than the second shot from a widow. 2.) Melee and charge both do damage depending on the situation. 3.) Claymore holds 20 rounds max, Widow holds 13 and thats with the ammo pack. 4.) Widow cannot max out its damage if it fires twice because it has to go back into cloak, otherwise its gotta fire outside of cloak which can turn enemies that would die from the claymore in at most 2 shots into guys that would take over 3 shots to kill with the widow.

If I ever gave the impression that in my experience elites died to single shots from the claymore, sorry, I just meant they died faster, and i thought hte widow did so much more damage per shot that it would kill on first hit.

[Ahglock]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

I somehow played the game the first time play vanguard never quite knowing how to do it. I just used my pistol a lot and used ammo powers. Charge really didn't make sense to me since it did like no damage. However i am fully aware that i must be missing something.

What level do you play on.  I actually think charge sucks on less than hard core.  Non shielded enemies fly away from you taking minimul damage.  Shielded enemies stagger a bit, you slow down(with heavy), and you easily line up a point blank head shot.  Point blank multiplier=dead target.  Now you are in close with maybe 2ish other targets and before you take to much in health you probably kill one of them and have charge lined up for a shield regen. 

[Ahglock]

willyallthewei wrote...



You're right but thats okay for the Vandy because of 4 things.  1.) The second shot with the reload trick comes out much faster than the second shot from a widow. 2.) Melee and charge both do damage depending on the situation. 3.) Claymore holds 20 rounds max, Widow holds 13 and thats with the ammo pack. 4.) Widow cannot max out its damage if it fires twice because it has to go back into cloak, otherwise its gotta fire outside of cloak which can turn enemies that would die from the claymore in at most 2 shots into guys that would take over 3 shots to kill with the widow.

If I ever gave the impression that in my experience elites died to single shots from the claymore, sorry, I just meant they died faster, and i thought hte widow did so much more damage per shot that it would kill on first hit.

Sneak up and try point blank widow shots   No argument, point blank multipier means vanguards own on DPS.  Though I guess you could go with a shotty inflitrator build for something similar.  My point was more I was not expecting as much as I think you were from the sniper rifles.

[Ahglock]

Kronner wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Yeah I remember that thread and the numbers were illuminating.  And shotguns are very well balanced overall.  I just disagree with some people on wether or not a upgrade weapon should be balanced with the other weapons that closely.  I don't really care about the firepower weapons being unbalnced since that was the intended goal, but I always thought the upgrade weapons should be a clear best in their class. 

Agreed, it would only make sense. I mean for me Claymore is clearly the best shotgun in the game, but it should be even better compared to others. Maybe up the base damage to ~600 (from 400) to boost damage even further.
Widow is not clearly the best SR either (although it is the best SR for me) as Viper has more effective ammo, works better with Infiltrator's slowdown zoom effect and kills tough enemies faster. Boosting the Widow damage would also help. And Revenant? Mattock clearly outperforms it. I still like Rev better, but Mattock is more effective anyway.

Unil firepower the revenant felt like a clear upgrade.  It was the only one that did to me.  While the claymore is my clear favorite, the scimitar's damage is close enough for most targets.  The claymore has a overkill factor on regular mobs on insnaity I don't want to call it wasted damage but it has an effect that pure numbers don't show.  But I love its one shot one kill ability, it fits my style better than the rest. 

[tonnactus]

willyallthewei wrote...

Scrogu, thats the strategy I eventually resorted to, and you're right about my expectations. What bothered me before really, was that I kept comparing the infiltrator in ME2 to the DPS machine that is the infiltrator from ME1 and the DW rogue from DOA.

I had squad cyro build and retrained into inceneration blast for exactly what you're talking about, and you're right, its a lot better.

When it comes to dps and sniping,the infiltrator in Mass Effect 2 is basicly a gimped soldier.
Even basic adrenaline rush actually beats assasination cloak.

Modifié par tonnactus, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:21 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

There's the Widow/Claymore Infiltrator, but I haven't seen a Widow/Claymore Vanguard yet :devil:

[Epic777]

Ahglock wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Yeah I remember that thread and the numbers were illuminating.  And shotguns are very well balanced overall.  I just disagree with some people on wether or not a upgrade weapon should be balanced with the other weapons that closely.  I don't really care about the firepower weapons being unbalnced since that was the intended goal, but I always thought the upgrade weapons should be a clear best in their class. 

Agreed, it would only make sense. I mean for me Claymore is clearly the best shotgun in the game, but it should be even better compared to others. Maybe up the base damage to ~600 (from 400) to boost damage even further.
Widow is not clearly the best SR either (although it is the best SR for me) as Viper has more effective ammo, works better with Infiltrator's slowdown zoom effect and kills tough enemies faster. Boosting the Widow damage would also help. And Revenant? Mattock clearly outperforms it. I still like Rev better, but Mattock is more effective anyway.

Unil firepower the revenant felt like a clear upgrade.  It was the only one that did to me.  While the claymore is my clear favorite, the scimitar's damage is close enough for most targets.  The claymore has a overkill factor on regular mobs on insnaity I don't want to call it wasted damage but it has an effect that pure numbers don't show.  But I love its one shot one kill ability, it fits my style better than the rest. 

I disagree that class exclusive weapons should automatcally be the best weapon in their type. All three weapons are already powerful. Choice, expermentation and different playstyles are complemeted by weapons having a different niche.  

[Bourne Endeavor]

willyallthewei wrote...
I also have the LotsB bonus (thats why i said +60%, not +50%), and yes the widow never fails to 1-hit kill Collector drones and mercenary grunts, my experience is similar to yours. But I was surprised about how robust elite level units such as an asari commando/centurion/engineers are against the infiltrator. They take multiple (sometimes as many as 3) shots to bring down the widow, and this annoys me, because a Vanguard going a 100mph burns through everything so fast, and I was used to that killing speed.

Ah, I had misunderstood and perceived you were either having issues with the grunts or that the Claymore indeed was slaughtering Elites. Hence the thought your shot may be off. I agree that was increasingly frustrating when upwards of three direct headshots were needed. Barrier and Shields are a horrid combination to break through. Either way, it would be nice if the Widow was not gimped against Elites.

Epic777 wrote...

I disagree that class exclusive weapons should automatcally be the best weapon in their type. All three weapons are already powerful. Choice, expermentation and different playstyles are complemeted by weapons having a different niche.

Aye, however in some cases the DLC weapons completely undermine the 'elite; in-game variety. The Claymore requires some degree of proficiency with the reload trick to compare to others and is still outdamaged by the GPS. The Mattack trumps the Revenant in numerous categories. Frankly, only the Widow is not completely beaten by another weapon as no sniper will one shot as effectively. A power increase for the Claymore would not disrupt the skill requirement but better reward those who can utilize it. Likewise, the Revenant should be capable of matching the Mattock better.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:55 .

[lazuli]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Barrier and Shields are a horrid combination to break through.

No enemy has both Barrier and Shields, right?  I play on the xbox on Insanity, and I have never encountered a foe with both Barrier and Shields.  You're implying that the combination is with Armor, not with the other option, right?

[Bourne Endeavor]

I recall coming across the odd few that do spot Barrier and Shields but I could be mistaken.

[AntiChri5]

I have never seen an enemey with both Barriers and Shields. Shields + Armour? Yes. Barriers + Armour? Yes. Barriers + Shields? Nope.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Evidently I confused the two. Been about a month or so and memory did not serve me well here.

[Airell]

they are keeping every thing to the vanguard they are going to add more to the class. so nothing is going to be taken away.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Epic777 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Yeah I remember that thread and the numbers were illuminating.  And shotguns are very well balanced overall.  I just disagree with some people on wether or not a upgrade weapon should be balanced with the other weapons that closely.  I don't really care about the firepower weapons being unbalnced since that was the intended goal, but I always thought the upgrade weapons should be a clear best in their class. 

Agreed, it would only make sense. I mean for me Claymore is clearly the best shotgun in the game, but it should be even better compared to others. Maybe up the base damage to ~600 (from 400) to boost damage even further.
Widow is not clearly the best SR either (although it is the best SR for me) as Viper has more effective ammo, works better with Infiltrator's slowdown zoom effect and kills tough enemies faster. Boosting the Widow damage would also help. And Revenant? Mattock clearly outperforms it. I still like Rev better, but Mattock is more effective anyway.

Unil firepower the revenant felt like a clear upgrade.  It was the only one that did to me.  While the claymore is my clear favorite, the scimitar's damage is close enough for most targets.  The claymore has a overkill factor on regular mobs on insnaity I don't want to call it wasted damage but it has an effect that pure numbers don't show.  But I love its one shot one kill ability, it fits my style better than the rest. 

I disagree that class exclusive weapons should automatcally be the best weapon in their type. All three weapons are already powerful. Choice, expermentation and different playstyles are complemeted by weapons having a different niche.  

If I'm reading you comment properly, then I agree... every weapon should have its own purpose/niche where it particularly excels. I actually think ME2 did a pretty decent job with this, though the Shotguns seem to stand out as the most balanced amongst themselves, whereas the Assault Rifles and Heavy Weapons seem the least.

[sinosleep]

Airell wrote...

they are keeping every thing to the vanguard they are going to add more to the class. so nothing is going to be taken away.

Yup

[Bozorgmehr]

Well I wouldn't mind if BW removes Shockwave. Actually, I don't care much about the Vanguard's other powers, just don't touch Charge. It alone will force me to play that class in ME3, brilliant power.

P.S. I like Claymore too.

[Malanek]

It would be good if they could fix some of the glitches with charge, especially when an enemy or shepard is close to a wall. Maybe make area charge a more interesting choice, does anyone take that?

[lazuli]

sinosleep wrote...

My heart is filled with gladness.

[Bozorgmehr]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

If they take away Pull, or Cryo Ammo, it will finally push me to play all-out Adept.

That would be a good thing