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[Myounage]

This always bugged me.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Because they don't in P&P and Fiendish Heritage was only added in Storm of Zehir while the race has been available since the OC?

[Myounage]

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

Because they don't in P&P and Fiendish Heritage was only added in Storm of Zehir while the race has been available since the OC?

Question is inclusive of PnP, but the second bit makes more sense.

[dunniteowl]

Maybe it's because they'd be overpowered at that level if they got it?

dno

[M. Rieder]

The feat should be given a different name so it makes sense.

[kamalpoe]

Different creatures get different amounts of the lower planes blood flowing through them. Tieflings don't have to be evil, but fiendish heritage requires evil alignment. So a good tiefling doesn't have enough fiendish blood to get the benefits.

[The Fred]

I suppose it could be considered that the Fiendish Heritage feat represents not having a fiendish heritage as per say, but embracing it. Then, only evil characters would take the feat.

[Ranik15]

dunniteowl wrote...

Maybe it's because they'd be overpowered at that level if they got it?
dno

Yeah, because the pureblood Yaun-ti are totally not overpowered with all their +stats and such at level 1 with just +2 ECL.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Ranik15 wrote...

dunniteowl wrote...

Maybe it's because they'd be overpowered at that level if they got it?
dno

Yeah, because the pureblood Yaun-ti are totally not overpowered with all their +stats and such at level 1 with just +2 ECL.

Balance is both subjective and suspect for any aspect of D&D. And, in fact, any game that rewards system mastery.

At any rate, agreeing on Fiendish Heritage being an embracing of the fiendish blood rather than a simple manifestation of it.

[The Fred]

Personally, I would probably make it so that Fiendish Heritage didn't require you to be evil, and the Tieflings did get it at L1. All the follow-on feats could require you to be evil, though. However, I can see the case for it being as it is.

[Weiser_Cain]

It should at least make you more likely to be evil, maybe give you more DS points for bad deeds, of give you special dialogue options.

[Seagloom]

It was introduced long after tieflings, which made their first 3e appearances as a possible player race in the "Monster Manual". For kicks I dug out my copy of "Complete Mage" to read its description on that feat. There was nothing helpful. It did, however, have a few paragraphs on heritage feats in general and used Fiendish Heritage as an example. Apparently the heritage feats represent a manifestation of power that exhibits itself for the first time when it is taken. A tiefling could live to a ripe old age and not have that aspect of their lineage manifest because they lack the knowledge and self awareness to tap into it. The prerequisite being evil makes sense, I think, considering fiends are literally a physical manifestation of evil upon the Planes. I mean, tapping into the innate power of a purely evil ancestor necessitating an understanding of that evil makes sense to me.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I adjusted them on my server to be more like 4th edition. They don't get +2 dex and +2 int and -2 cha, which actually are the two things a wizard needs and the one things a warlock does not need. I also never saw a warlock making sense. Each time i played them i thought sorceror who has some fiendish blood or warlock, and i'd have to do that despite the fact they are set up to be a strong rogue. The two bonuses also help wizard and rogue a lot, the rogue gets skill points and his prime stat, while wizard gets prime stat and a little more AC, and less need to do defensive casting. I also see the idea of them being outcasts as having no relationship to a cha penalty, to me evil creatures are often very charming.



The tiefling in 4th edition just made sense. The +2 int and +2 cha which tend to not provide as much synergy, they can but generally you see a class either using charisma, or using intelligence and not both at the same time.



I also gave fiendish heritage for free, just because it made sense to me, and it does not add a lot except allowing the option later for other feats. I don't see the result, which i made ECL 1, as being a better choice of a human which has a free feat and no level penalty. I probably need to make the secondary feats you can get, to make sure those are evil only requirement. This is entirely house rules though.

[The Fred]

I guess, though, comparing with a human, that human could take Fiendish Heritage as their bonus feat, leaving them the more or less same but for +2 Int and +2 Cha for +1 LA. I'm not sure that wouldn't make the Tiefling slightly more powerful than the human... then again, +2 Dex, +2 Int and -2 Cha is argueably even better for min-maxing types, who probably don't need any Cha anyway. Also, the human's bonus feat is slightly more valueable since they have the option to spend it on whatever they want.

[Weiser_Cain]

Yeah, like another heritage feat.

[painofdungeoneternal]

The +1 LA costs far more than the value given by fiendish heritage, either taking longer to level OR stuck not being able to advance past level 29. +2 to dex and int benefit EVERY build which does not rely on armor, cha is often ignored - you can always use more skill points and more dex ac.



Yes +2 to cha and Int is rarely benefitting you from both, it really just lets you choose to be a wizard or a sorceror or a warlock, and you then set the other stat you are not using to 10 or 12. Note drow give you +2 dex, +2 int, +2 cha, -2 con and it is from experimenting with those that i learned how useful that +2 int and +2 cha is, but it does help if you do dual cleric wizards or the like i imagine.

[Weiser_Cain]

Wait, I don't remember not being able to level past 29?

[painofdungeoneternal]

That is how we do ECL on our PW, we remove the up front cost but cap it. On a low level server the penalty up front works since taking longer to level means you will be behind others in how high you go, however on a server where you go to level 30 it's meaningless up front but affects you via overall limits.



The reason you get it is because the first 1-2 levels should be consumed by monster classes before you can get regular classes, all those extra things you get as a duerger technically come from hidden class levels.

[The Fred]

Yeah, it messes up balance at levels 1-3 or so as well, because a L1 Deep Gnome or Yuan-ti is far more powerful than a typical L1 Human... however, the former stay exactly like that until L2 or even L3 whereas by then, a Human has more levels. So, at L3 the no-LA races are probably more powerful. Then, they kind of normalise a bit (but ofc at the level cap, the LA races are better since they're effectively at the level cap +1-3).

[Weiser_Cain]

Remind me never to spend weeks on your servers just to have my build crippled.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Up to you. Just remember that my server caters to true power builders, probably more than any other out there. ( I also clearly state all the changes to the vanilla rules, all you have to do is read the descriptions, and if it's an ECL race which affects your max level, you get a message on every kill you make until you hit 2nd level )