397 réponses à ce sujet

[Jimmy Fury]

Question for anyone talking about recognizability...
Look at these pages: Here, Here, and Here.
Do you recognize any of the characters shown? Are you at all confused by who those people are?
Or do you recognize  (despite looking extremely different from their in-game counterparts) Leliana, Morrigan, and Sten?
Cosmetic changes do not automatically mean the characters will be completely unrecognizable.
Isabella looks totally different, yes. Not just due to the art change but because, as mentioned multiple times, she was a generic NPC in origins and she's now a major character deserving a completely unique look.

How about this as an example:
If Shale made a cameo in Dwarf form surely she would be unrecognizable physically.  Even if this cameo is in a DLC for origins thus using the exact same art style. She wouldn't be a big rock thing, she would be a dwarf. Totally different look.
But if she had the same voice, same speech patterns, and was crushing a pidgeon... you would know instantly who it is right? You wouldn't need anyone to spell out "Hey that is shale in her original dwarven form!" You would just know. Context would be enough to tell you.
Surely if a strappy-leather-dress wearing, "assets" displaying, dark haired, snarky, Claudia Black voiced witch showed up you would know it's Morrigan. No matter how different her actual facial features are you would instantly know exactly who it is.

(incidentally Connery may be the best bond but OHMSS will always be the superior film just for having Diana Rigg in it... )

[Brockololly]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Question for anyone talking about recognizability...
Look at these pages: Here, Here, and Here.
Do you recognize any of the characters shown? Are you at all confused by who those people are?
Or do you recognize  (despite looking extremely different from their in-game counterparts) Leliana, Morrigan, and Sten?

Right, but if you're going for a consistent world, why change up the faces of already established major characters? I absolutely hate 99% of most face morph mods for the companions- changing the faces of Origins companions for DA2 just for the hell of it isn't necessarily game breaking but IMO hurts any sense of continuity.

Jimmy Fury wrote...
How about this as an example:
If Shale made a cameo in Dwarf form surely she would be unrecognizable physically.  Even if this cameo is in a DLC for origins thus using the exact same art style. She wouldn't be a big rock thing, she would be a dwarf. Totally different look.
But if she had the same voice, same speech patterns, and was crushing a pidgeon... you would know instantly who it is right? You wouldn't need anyone to spell out "Hey that is shale in her original dwarven form!" You would just know. Context would be enough to tell you.

Right, but thats a plot related change in appearance. Thats like Flemeth's new look, which given its grounded in her plot status as a master shapeshifter, I'm fine with.

A more apt comparison would be like what Sucker Punch went through when they redesigned Cole for inFamous 2 and due to fan backlash changed his look back to something that actually looked how he did in the first game. Now you could still tell via context that it was Cole, but there was no reason for their change in look beyond trying to make it look edgier.

You shouldn't have to rely on context and clothing to visually establish the character. After spending dozens of hours looking at a given Origins companion and how they look, face wise, it would be jarring for me if they look different in a new game, to hear the old VO coming out of a "new" face thats plot wise supposed to be the "old" face. Its just a weird disconnect.

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Surely if a strappy-leather-dress wearing, "assets" displaying, dark haired, snarky, Claudia Black voiced witch showed up you would know it's Morrigan. No matter how different her actual facial features are you would instantly know exactly who it is.

Would you though at a glance? Same reason people didn't know if Isabela was Isabela or Flemeth was Flemeth when they were fist shown. People guessed they were "pirate lady" and "dragon lady" and from there you could infer their identities based on what you knew from Origins, but if its supposed to be a returning character, outside of a plot related change, their faces should look the same. Otherwise if you change hairstyles or other context cues like clothing too, it places even more distance in terms of recognizability.

I know they have a new face morph system, but each of the major Origins characters had certain characteristic facial features which I hope are maintained when and if they're recreated in the new system and not just totally redesigned like Cole in inFamous 2, simply to look more badass or Hot Rod Samuari.

[TheRevanchist]

David Gaider wrote...

magicwins wrote...
Do tell: Why? Why the complete redesign? What are you seeking to achieve with this art style that you could not with the first?

Just curious.

We... think it looks better than the visuals in DAO?

Is that not obvious? I get that, in the absence of actually playing the game you might have already decided you don't agree, but I find this level of obtuseness a little baffling.

Mr Gaider while I don't have a problem with 90% of the art changes there is one thing I find off about them. That is the Qunari, while I understand you changed them to better represent their relation to Ogres and so forth it still bothers me. For one in the DAO codex you describe them as a "tall bronzed skined race with white hair who stands a head taller then any human." 

That is not my main problem however since that can simply be dismissed. The problem I have with the new Qunari appearence is this. Also according to your codex, the Qunari posses gunpowder...and by extention cannons. Meaning they are sigificantly more advanced then Thedas. Their old appearence made sence in regards to high levels of technology, however now that they have basicly de-evolved into snarling ogres that walk upright instead of hunched over. They no longer look like a race that would be mentaly capable of utilizeing cannons or gunpowder as a whole correctly and would likely blow up in their own face trying to figure out how it works. It's like giveing machine guns to a monkey and the monkey already knowing how to use it. It just don't make a lot of sence. 

Perhaps you can tell me your opinion on this and maybe give an explination thats makes me no longer worry about this, aside from the fact I have no control over this. But thats really my only grief with your new art direction Mr Gaider. Because I am able to use my immaginatioon -hand rainbow- in regards to Flemeth and such...since you always point out...is a shapeshifter. While I also think the Darkspawn now look like Skeletor and The Locust had babies I can simply deal with that as well. This Qunari issue is really my only complaint because I have a hard time envisioning a race of snarling ogres having the mental capacity to use gunpowder.

[Ortaya Alevli]

I like them new antlers. They look menacing.

Origins showed me that elves can still be elves without all that sophistication and high-and-mighty attitude. I see no reason why DA2 should fail at presenting a race of people with horns who also happen to be capable of technological genius.

I will reserve judgment until the game is released. The new qunari may be depicted as barbarians or an advanced race; we don't know yet. But that's exactly the point; we don't know yet.

[Ziggeh]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I like them new antlers. They look menacing.

That's actually my only problem with them. They're essentially exagerated "evil" eyebrows. I could be wrong, but  I strongly suspect they're going to stamp around acting like stereotypical bad guys for much of the plot in order to motivate the protagonist against them, when I'm hoping it will be more subtle. Loghain was a lot like that. His motives were complex, but his actions and personality (for much of it) were approaching Dick Dastardly levels of "tying women to railway tracks" badguyiness.

Definitely potential to defy certain stereotypes mind, so I'm reasonably optomistic.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:29 .

[Ziggeh]

kylecouch wrote...

That is not my main problem however since that can simply be dismissed. The problem I have with the new Qunari appearence is this. Also according to your codex, the Qunari posses gunpowder...and by extention cannons. Meaning they are sigificantly more advanced then Thedas. Their old appearence made sence in regards to high levels of technology, however now that they have basicly de-evolved into snarling ogres that walk upright instead of hunched over. They no longer look like a race that would be mentaly capable of utilizeing cannons or gunpowder as a whole correctly and would likely blow up in their own face trying to figure out how it works. It's like giveing machine guns to a monkey and the monkey already knowing how to use it. It just don't make a lot of sence.

What do intelligent races look like? For modelling efficiency they're all going to look pretty similar, but so do the unnamed humans. Are we assuming that the entire race looks like their combat troops?

[Ortaya Alevli]

Ziggeh wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I like them new antlers. They look menacing.

That's actually my only problem with them. They're essentially exagerated "evil" eyebrows. I could be wrong, but  I strongly suspect they're going to stamp around acting like stereotypical bad guys for much of the plot in order to motivate the protagonist against them, when I'm hoping it will be more subtle. Loghain was a lot like that. His motives were complex, but his actions and personality (for much of it) were approaching Dick Dastardly levels of "tying women to railway tracks" badguyiness.

Definitely potential to defy certain stereotypes mind, so I'm reasonably optomistic.

That little line I added there was intentional, you see. To clarify, I like the antlers not because they look menacing to me, but because they look menacing, period. And if BioWare actually subverts the traditional association between horns and 'menacing', 'devilish' and 'barbaric' in this game, it will be a move as brilliant as what they did to elves in Origins.

[esigma444]

It also states in the codex that they wear armor. But whose to say the Qunari we face in DA2 aren't just the first wave? Member the Qunari don't believe the Free Marches are organized enough to put up any defense. So they are just sending the grunts in.
Also you under the impression that looks are everything. Just because someone looks Barbaric doesn't mean they can't be highly intelligent. Sten is a perfect example for his people. He looks like a simple brute and only gives short answers to your questions (if any answers at all) but once you get to know him is quite intelligent.

Modifié par esigma444, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:42 .

[addiction21]

Ziggeh wrote...

Loghain was a lot like that. His motives were complex, but his actions and personality (for much of it) were approaching Dick Dastardly levels of "tying women to railway tracks" badguyiness.

Definitely potential to defy certain stereotypes mind, so I'm reasonably optomistic.

I would of found that acceptable if his sidekick was ass great as Mutley but we were stuck with Howe...

[Ziggeh]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

That little line I added there was intentional, you see. To clarify, I like the antlers not because they look menacing to me, but because they look menacing, period. And if BioWare actually subverts the traditional association between horns and 'menacing', 'devilish' and 'barbaric' in this game, it will be a move as brilliant as what they did to elves in Origins.

True, true, I'm being fairly pesimitic there.

[Maria Caliban]

Ziggeh wrote...

...I strongly suspect they're going to stamp around acting like stereotypical bad guys for much of the plot in order to motivate the protagonist against them...

I don't get this assumption at all. 'I don't want X to happen, therefore I assume that's what BioWare will do.'

Why not, 'I don't want X to happen, therefore I assume BioWare won't do it?'

I assume that the qunari will act like an invading army. Invading armies are, I hear, not the nicest of fellows. I don't assume they're going to suddenly be mindless savages because they've been redesigned to be more physically imposing.

Ziggeh wrote...

They're essentially exagerated "evil" eyebrows.

What's evil is how hard they are to pluck and maintain.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:14 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Brockololly wrote...
Right, but if you're going for a consistent world, why change up the faces of already established major characters? I absolutely hate 99% of most face morph mods for the companions- changing the faces of Origins companions for DA2 just for the hell of it isn't necessarily game breaking but IMO hurts any sense of continuity.

A consistent world and a consistent look are two different things.  They still have a consistent world. The look is what has changed. My entire point was the the look does not define the world itself. Thedas is still Thedas whether it's painted in watercolor or scribbled in crayon.

Right, but thats a plot related change in appearance. Thats like Flemeth's new look, which given its grounded in her plot status as a master shapeshifter, I'm fine with.

The point was that the context would be all you need to recognize the character. Insisting a character must look the same in order to be the same remains untrue. Whether the change is plot driven, whim driven, or beer-goggle driven is irrelivant to the fact that you can still recognize the character without the character looking the same.

A more apt comparison would be like what Sucker Punch went through when they redesigned Cole for inFamous 2 and due to fan backlash changed his look back to something that actually looked how he did in the first game. Now you could still tell via context that it was Cole, but there was no reason for their change in look beyond trying to make it look edgier.

Not really. As you say, cole was changed just to change cole. The rest of the art style was staying the same. Thus it's not an apt comparison given that the entire art style is changing for Dragon Age and the character changes are simply one facet of that.
Personally though, not to get off topic, I loved new-cole's look. Old cole looked perpetually angry. I welcomed the change and was disappointed that they caved in and changed him back to grumpy-face guy.  That's just a matter of personal taste though.

Would you though at a glance?

Yes. I would.
That's one of the things behind my original question about the apathetic side possibly having a higher number of comic geeks. I've spent 20 years watching characters undergo instant visual changes due to artists changing. To me a character is not their look but everything else about them. Cyclops is cyclops whether he's a stick figure cyclops, hand painted cyclops, or james marsden cyclops. No two pencilers draw Emma Frost's face the same but they all get her costume-style and the writer's always nail her wit so it's always Emma. Her clothes and her personality determine her character, not the fact that one artist draws her with a button nose and another gives her  more bridge.

I know they have a new face morph system, but each of the major Origins characters had certain characteristic facial features which I hope are maintained when and if they're recreated in the new system and not just totally redesigned like Cole in inFamous 2, simply to look more badass or Hot Rod Samuari.

Do they though? Can you describe Morrigan's features in a way that can not possibly describe any other character in Origins? Can you detail Alistair's features in a way that won't also describe Cailen? Personally I can't.

[magicwins]

On a somewhat mildly related note, I found some screenies on xboxlive that I cannot BELIEVE I haven't seen anyone gushing about yet here. Especially the first image. If that's taken in-game, I'm going to stop playing every couple of seconds and just stare and sigh




(If you're wondering how it's related to anything: Qunari, Redesign, Desire to gush... )

[Ziggeh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't get this assumption at all. 'I don't want X to happen, therefore I assume that's what BioWare will do.'

Why not, 'I don't want X to happen, therefore I assume BioWare won't do
it?'

Because they did it in the last game, and I understand the good reasons for it, indeed, I'd probably be doing exactly the same thing if I were up to me, I'd just rather they didn't.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:28 .

[Xewaka]

magicwins wrote...
On a somewhat mildly related note, I found some screenies on xboxlive that I cannot BELIEVE I haven't seen anyone gushing about yet here. Especially the first image. If that's taken in-game, I'm going to stop playing every couple of seconds and just stare and sigh
(photos of unarmored qunari warriors)
(If you're wondering how it's related to anything: Qunari, Redesign, Desire to gush... )

"Who needs armor when I have steely pecs?" *Stab* "Urgh."

This is the problem I have with the art makeover.

Modifié par Xewaka, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:23 .

[magicwins]

Xewaka wrote...

magicwins wrote...
On a somewhat mildly related note, I found some screenies on xboxlive that I cannot BELIEVE I haven't seen anyone gushing about yet here. Especially the first image. If that's taken in-game, I'm going to stop playing every couple of seconds and just stare and sigh
(photos of unarmored qunari warriors)
(If you're wondering how it's related to anything: Qunari, Redesign, Desire to gush... )

"Who needs armor when I have steely pecs?" *Stab* "Urgh."

This is the problem I have with the art makeover.

Ugh.... A practical person. This is art I say!!

They could actually be made of steel you know. Katanagatari anyone?

[Xewaka]

magicwins wrote...
Ugh.... A practical person. This is art I say!!
They could actually be made of steel you know. Katanagatari anyone?

The art is what I'm missing in the shots. I happen to love how full plate armor looks and the intrincacy of its designs and embellishments.

[magicwins]

Xewaka wrote...

magicwins wrote...
Ugh.... A practical person. This is art I say!!
They could actually be made of steel you know. Katanagatari anyone?

The art is what I'm missing in the shots. I happen to love how full plate armor looks and the intrincacy of its designs and embellishments.

Are you seriously insinuating that those screenies do not look awash with beautiful colours?
Or are you merely more upset that plate armor is not returning?

[Cobrawar]

The look of the world and the look of the characters and races in it, are one and the same . Change The look of characters and races, hence you change the world. When you look at the qunari in origins as apposed to DA2 they give you different feelings and different ideas on what they are . This is the reason why people say first impressions always matter. People will judge you by the way you first look to them. If you look like a maniac you will be labeled as a maniac but if you look intelligent you will come off as intelligent. Its a flaw in human nature

Modifié par Cobrawar, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:40 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

It's difficult to gather enough courage to go visit Bethesda forums after all this.

[Xewaka]

magicwins wrote...
Are you seriously insinuating that those screenies do not look awash with beautiful colours?
Or are you merely more upset that plate armor is not returning?

I didn't even bother with checking the backgrounds. The Qunari in front taking a good third of the screen and fighting essentially naked yanks me away from what the image is trying to communicate, telling me only: "Hey look, were so grittier and bloodier and sexier we don't need armor". When they do. Badly.
Then again, in the "Destiny" trailer, the general got stabbed with the staff side to side (the point comes out on the other side) and he didn't even flinch. So maybe the Qunari actually ARE invulnerable.
Which would be even sillier and more offputting.
Sorry, the art makeover might do wonders for the backgrounds, but the characters (the focus of the story) did NOT benefit from it.

[Ponchoe]

Xewaka wrote...
Sorry, the art makeover might do wonders for the backgrounds, but the characters (the focus of the story) did NOT benefit from it.

I disagree. I think the characters look much, much better than before. They're much more distinct and have a better feel IMO. I couldn't even tell if qunari were human or not, I seriously thought they were black people at first. The braided hair didn't help any either.

This new direction, I feel, is the way to go. It's far more crisper, cleaner, and I don't even miss the "fine lines" of Ferelden. 

And about the darkspawn, I don't mind that new look either. The more they can get away from LOTR the better IMO.

[Cobrawar]

Someone said it best they are trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Xewaka]

Ponchoe wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Sorry, the art makeover might do wonders for the backgrounds, but the characters (the focus of the story) did NOT benefit from it.

I disagree. I think the characters look much, much better than before. They're much more distinct and have a better feel IMO. I couldn't even tell if qunari were human or not, I seriously thought they were black people at first. The braided hair didn't help any either.
This new direction, I feel, is the way to go. It's far more crisper, cleaner, and I don't even miss the "fine lines" of Ferelden. 
And about the darkspawn, I don't mind that new look either. The more they can get away from LOTR the better IMO.

Show me a fully armored Qunari and I will concede the new, crispier art style might be better. Until then, the sacrifice of coherency for flashiness is not a sacrifice worth making.

[AngelicMachinery]

Cobrawar wrote...

Someone said it best they are trying to reinvent the wheel.

We get it Dragon Age two is the worst game ever,  go talk about something you enjoy.  It's a better use of time.