77 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

I enjoy using Biotics in ME2.  Charge, in particular, is my favorite.  Charge is a fantastic power for many reasons, one of which is how it keeps combat moving at all times by replenishing shields, allowing players to continue the fight.  But Charge is specific to the Vanguard.

ME2 Adepts have taken a lot of heat on these boards.  People complain about the defense systems and how the Adept has been nerfed.  I will state right now that I think the Adept is a fully functional and effective character class on all difficulty levels.  I have beaten the game on Insanity with the Adept several times, each time utilizing a slightly different build, and once on Normal.  I do not think the Adept is underpowered.  It is capable of aggressive play, as is shown in the Adept threads in the strategy forum.

That said, I think the Adept's gameplay would be improved with a minor change:
  Allow certain powers to restore a small portion of the player's Barrier once used. 

I envision it as linked to each power individually, so using rank 1 Pull would give back 10% Barrier, while using rank 3 Throw would provide 30%.  Perhaps one possible evolution would grant up to 35% Barrier return, while the other would top out at 30% but be otherwise appealing.  Another possibility would be to link it to the Adept's passive ability.

If the amount of Barrier restored remains small, it probably wouldn't overpower the Adept.  But another thing to consider is how this would affect other classes with access to Biotics.  The small amount of Barrier restored for an Adept would translate into a much larger amount restored for the Sentinel with Tech Armor, at least if the amount were based on percentages.  Should separate versions of powers be made, so only classes that use Barriers (Adept and Vanguard) benefit?

Why don't you just use Barrier?
-Barrier is a great power.  Its cooldown, though, prevents the Adept from doing what the Adept was designed to do- use Biotics.



So what do you think?  I don't want this thread to devolve into bickering about the defense system and the differences between Biotics in ME1 and ME2.  Rather, discuss the merits and problems with the Adept (and other classes?) regaining a small amount of Barrier when using Biotic powers.  Should it be specific to certain powers, to certain classes?  Should the amount restored differ depending on ability, or be linked to a passive?

Modifié par lazuli, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:57 .

[Bozorgmehr]

I totally agree, the dynamic playstyle allowed by Charge's shield regen is great. A shield/barrier boost using powers sounds nice though it'll make Adept too powerful IMHO. The amount of shield regen isn't really important - having some shield up is (shield breaks = Shep's briefly indestructible). BW must revamp the health-shield system to make it work. Maybe only boosting shields when you kill enemy using biotic powers like Throw and Warp could work?

BTW; ME2 does have the Redundant Generator research upgrade (randomly regenerates small portion of shield). I've no idea when or why your shields regen spontaneously, but it does happen fairly often. I've seen enemy Warp boosting my shield instead of destroying it; sometimes killing a (powerful) enemy boosts your shield (a little, like ED); Successful biotic attacks can trigger effect also. But it always happens randomly.

[fmsantos39]

I really would like to see biotics affecting armor the way in affect health, I think it makes no sense armor resisting a lift or a throw, armor is just a tough cloth, Biotics are no so fun to play on ME2, you are allways dependent of your team mates, Adept was my favorite class on ME1, if BW don't put so much resists for biotics on ME3, Adpets don't even need shields.

[sinosleep]

@fmsantos39, it makes sense from a gameplay mechanics perspective and is one of those gameplay over X (lore, common sense, what have you) decisions that gamers have to deal with.



When BioWare decided to go with a rock/paper/scissors system then they HAD to put the limits they put on physics based powers otherwise instead of being r/p/s/ it would be malleable flaming biotic hammer of doom that wraps/burns/shatters all in it's wake.

[lazuli]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

 The amount of shield regen isn't really important - having some shield up is (shield breaks = Shep's briefly indestructible). 

True enough.  The window of invulnerability is very slight, though, so sustaining repeated fire could still be lethal.  On the flip side, with some cooldowns dropped to ~2 seconds, Shepard could become invincible by spamming.  There are several ways the developers could address this.  They could, as you pointed out, overhaul the health system.  They could also introduce diminishing returns (only X barrier restored per Y seconds).  Another option would be to make it a random effect, like the redundant shields.

@yorkj86, I hadn't even considered how it would affect squadmates.  I don't see why it shouldn't be available for them.  Their cooldowns are so long that they couldn't rely on it for defense as much as Shepard.

[Dominus]

What Sino said, essentially. The unfortunate part of making video games is making tough decisions that involve taking out certain elements of realism for the sake of either game balancing or simplicity. Most games involving mages involve mana - Realistic to a magician, or just a way of limiting Mr. Fireball? I'll let you decide. Well, if you really want biotics unleashed, there's always the force...unleashed. :-)

[Malanek]

I like the idea of powerful adepts having a way through a small percentage of protections in ME3.
In another thread (suggesting new powers) I posted...
Adept
Biotic mastery (passive)
lvl 1 - Your biotic powers will effect protected enemies with 100 or less remaining points as if they were unprotected
lvl 2 - Your biotic powers will effect protected enemies with 200 or less remaining points as if they were unprotected
lvl 3 - Your biotic powers will effect protected enemies with 300 or less remaining points as if they were unprotected
lvl 4 - Choose one
Force Master - Your biotic powers will effect protected enemies with 300 or less remaining points as if they were unprotected and ignore armour altogether
Metaphysical master - Your biotic powers will effect protected enemies with 300 or less remaining points as if they were unprotected and ignore barriers altogether

Obviously the numbers and names would have to be tweaked. It assumes characters will go from lvl 30 upwards in ME3 and also enemies will have correspondingly more protections. It would still keep the system of protection stripping key to gameplay but would alow the adept to not have to remove quite as much protection as the other classes.

[lazuli]

Ok, but this thread isn't about enemy defenses and how they affect Biotics.

[sinosleep]

lazuli wrote...

True enough.  The window of invulnerability is very slight, though, so sustaining repeated fire could still be lethal.  On the flip side, with some cooldowns dropped to ~2 seconds, Shepard could become invincible by spamming.  There are several ways the developers could address this.  They could, as you pointed out, overhaul the health system.  They could also introduce diminishing returns (only X barrier restored per Y seconds).  Another option would be to make it a random effect, like the redundant shields.

@yorkj86, I hadn't even considered how it would affect squadmates.  I don't see why it shouldn't be available for them.  Their cooldowns are so long that they couldn't rely on it for defense as much as Shepard.

Diminishing returns in combination with a cap of some kind I think would work. Otherwise, as has been said, when some of the very small CDs associated with adept powers are taken into account it would be really easy to just maintain high shields with no risk involved for the player since you wouldn't be in the kind of danger charge inherently places you in.

[Malanek]

lazuli wrote...

Ok, but this thread isn't about enemy defenses and how they affect Biotics.

It was sort of. In this thread you wrote...

lazuli wrote...
ME2 Adepts have taken a lot of heat on these boards.  People complain about the defense systems and how the Adept has been nerfed.

lazuli wrote...
That said, I think the Adept's gameplay would be improved with a minor change:
  Allow certain powers to restore a small portion of the player's Barrier once used. 

In my opinion my suggestion is significantly more in keeping with the adept should be played. I don't think it should have particularly good survivability compared to other classes but it should have supperior cc.

[lazuli]

@Malanek999, I was providing some background for my suggestion.  Regardless, I've modified the original post to highlight a key point in yellow:

I don't want this thread to devolve into bickering about the defense system and the differences between Biotics in ME1 and ME2.

I am not accusing you of bickering or anything of the sort.  My point is that there are many threads already devoted to the specific topic of Adepts and enemy defenses (and many threads devoted to other topics that have been derailed by Adepts and enemy defenses).

Thank you, though, for sharing your views on the way the Adept should be played.  You seem to favor a more fragile, "glass cannon" approach like the nuker archetype.  Admittedly, my suggestion for defensive Biotics doesn't mesh with the "glass cannon" stereotype that well.  

[adam_grif]

If armor didn't stop biotics but shields/barriers did, all biotic classes would instantly become more useful. Another possible change is to have Armor as an alternative to health, instead of in addition to it.

[brokit808]

wouldnt we all want every class to have a defensive ability? and woudnt that take away the effectiveness of some classes like the sentinal? if every class had a shield abiluity coudlnt that just take away the uniqueness of what some other classes have?



sure it would be nice if u can run and gun with an adept, but they arnt ment for run and guning, that is what a soldier is for

[kelsjet]

lazuli wrote...
I will state right now that I think the Adept is a fully functional and effective character class on all difficulty levels. I have beaten the game on Insanity with the Adept several times, each time utilizing a slightly different build, and once on Normal.

I don't think anyone has ever stated that the Adept is a "non-functional" class in ME2, but instead, that it is a pointless one. There is a significant qualitative difference between the two statements.

The point those guys are trying to make isn't that they can't get through the game on insanity on adept, but that being an adept on insanity is pointless since you end up playing the game like a nerfed soldier, i.e. you can pretty much go through the entire game on adept without using your powers, i.e just shooting.

Now I know there are a lot of "self proclaimed adpet masters" out there with a plethora of "adept videos - how its meant to be played", but I really do chuckle at those guys who show their "skills" with adept. Since in almost all their videos they are running around shooting everything, killing everything with bullets and they have like one token enemy who is at 2% hp who they kill with a warp and then they go "SEE? IMA USE MAH POWA ADEPTZ SO UZEFULZ LOL" hoping we would ignore the fact that the entire room was just cleared without having to use a single biotic power from the player.


At the end of the day, the adept class is pointless, not broken. Because by the time you get the enemy to a place where you can use your biotics, you can just as easily (and in most cases, much more easily) kill them with a single bullet. That is the core reason why Adepts in ME2 are pointless, since the majority of the heavy lifting in combat is done with guns. At that point, biotic powers are just like flashy finishing moves.

Like everyone else, I too have completed the game on insanity with my Adept, though, I have actually found that I can get through the entire game without having to use a single player biotic power, which in most situations, actually makes playing the adept easier (since you aren't forced to "find situations where I can use my biotics", and instead can just continue killing things with guns).

But I guess this logic just passes over the head of some people, who have throughout the history of this debate, been unable to distinguish between the phrases "non-functional" and "pointless".

*shrugs*

[lazuli]

brokit808 wrote...

wouldnt we all want every class to have a defensive ability? and woudnt that take away the effectiveness of some classes like the sentinal? if every class had a shield abiluity coudlnt that just take away the uniqueness of what some other classes have?

sure it would be nice if u can run and gun with an adept, but they arnt ment for run and guning, that is what a soldier is for

Every class already has access to a defensive ability.  At least four, in fact (GSB, Fortification, Barrier, and Unity).  The way I envision defensive Biotics is to restore a small amount each time a Biotic power is used.  The Adept wouldn't be running and gunning.  He or she would be running and using Biotics.  But yes, that would lead to increased mobility and survivability for the Adept.

[brokit808]

kelsjet wrote...

lazuli wrote...
I will state right now that I think the Adept is a fully functional and effective character class on all difficulty levels. I have beaten the game on Insanity with the Adept several times, each time utilizing a slightly different build, and once on Normal.

I don't think anyone has ever stated that the Adept is a "non-functional" class in ME2, but instead, that it is a pointless one. There is a significant qualitative difference between the two statements.

The point those guys are trying to make isn't that they can't get through the game on insanity on adept, but that being an adept on insanity is pointless since you end up playing the game like a nerfed soldier, i.e. you can pretty much go through the entire game on adept without using your powers, i.e just shooting.

Now I know there are a lot of "self proclaimed adpet masters" out there with a plethora of "adept videos - how its meant to be played", but I really do chuckle at those guys who show their "skills" with adept. Since in almost all their videos they are running around shooting everything, killing everything with bullets and they have like one token enemy who is at 2% hp who they kill with a warp and then they go "SEE? IMA USE MAH POWA ADEPTZ SO UZEFULZ LOL" hoping we would ignore the fact that the entire room was just cleared without having to use a single biotic power from the player.


At the end of the day, the adept class is pointless, not broken. Because by the time you get the enemy to a place where you can use your biotics, you can just as easily (and in most cases, much more easily) kill them with a single bullet. That is the core reason why Adepts in ME2 are pointless, since the majority of the heavy lifting in combat is done with guns. At that point, biotic powers are just like flashy finishing moves.

Like everyone else, I too have completed the game on insanity with my Adept, though, I have actually found that I can get through the entire game without having to use a single player biotic power, which in most situations, actually makes playing the adept easier (since you aren't forced to "find situations where I can use my biotics", and instead can just continue killing things with guns).

But I guess this logic just passes over the head of some people, who have throughout the history of this debate, been unable to distinguish between the phrases "non-functional" and "pointless".

*shrugs*

that is an exellent point and i would like to add that the adept is great to use on normal difficulty and that is where they SHINE on anything but, they are nurffed BAD if you want survivability chose the sentinal

[sinosleep]

It's not an excellent point, IT'S A MYTH

Why oh why does the MYTH PERSIST on these damned forums? Here are the FACTS on the matter....

most enemies have 1:1 health:defenses
health regenerating enemies have MORE health than defenses (verren, kilxen, vorcha, krogan)
VERY FEW have more defenses than health (dual layer enemies and enemies with NO health like harby, scions)

you combine those facts with these facts

weapons get damage modifiers against DEFENSES not health
ammo powers tend to do more damage (or do it quicker since DOTS are instant on defenses) to DEFENSES not health
EVERY defense has an instant strip counter, health DOESN'T

So the reality of the situation is that what you are actually saying, is in fact, the OPPOSITE of what actually happens in game.

Nearly everything in the game is more effective against defenses than health. The only things that aren't are physics based powers and cryo-blast which have their own uses (CC/insta-kills via map ejection) any way.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:15 .

[kelsjet]

sinosleep wrote...

It's not an excellent point, IT'S A MYTH

Why oh why does the MYTH PERSIST on these damned forums? Here are the FACTS on the matter....

It's easy to call something a myth, when you arbitrary define what is considered fact.

At the end of the day, you can play semantics all you want, but if you are implying that it is in any way difficult to kill defenseless enemies with guns, or in some way shape or form, easier to kill defenseless enemies with biotics, then all I can say to you is not to not to start a conversation assuming that your fellow forumites are idiots.


At the end of the day, when an enemy is stripped of his defenses, I can kill him in a split second with a gun (and in the case of some guns, a well placed headshot even from a pistol will drop the enemy). To me, that is my "insta-strip counter to health".

But since you have chosen to define what "insta-strip counter" only as "a button I can push on my keyboard" and not "an action I can take", you surmise that everyone who is not agreeing with your definitions are myth talkers.

And then you get frustrated why people don't agree with you.
So no, biotics are nothing more than flashy killshots on insanity. In most cases, I can accomplish the same thing with less hassle just using my guns.

[sinosleep]

Show me video of adepts one shotting enemies with pistols on insanity.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:33 .

[Praetor Knight]

kelsjet wrote...

The point those guys are trying to make isn't that they can't get through the game on insanity on adept, but that being an adept on insanity is pointless since you end up playing the game like a nerfed soldier, i.e. you can pretty much go through the entire game on adept without using your powers, i.e just shooting.

Now I know there are a lot of "self proclaimed adpet masters" out there with a plethora of "adept videos - how its meant to be played", but I really do chuckle at those guys who show their "skills" with adept. Since in almost all their videos they are running around shooting everything, killing everything with bullets and they have like one token enemy who is at 2% hp who they kill with a warp and then they go "SEE? IMA USE MAH POWA ADEPTZ SO UZEFULZ LOL" hoping we would ignore the fact that the entire room was just cleared without having to use a single biotic power from the player.

At the end of the day, the adept class is pointless, not broken. Because by the time you get the enemy to a place where you can use your biotics, you can just as easily (and in most cases, much more easily) kill them with a single bullet. That is the core reason why Adepts in ME2 are pointless, since the majority of the heavy lifting in combat is done with guns. At that point, biotic powers are just like flashy finishing moves.

*shrugs* I must be playing a different game and watching different videos...

Seriously, you can play the classes any way you want on any difficulty, each class has a learning curve and it seems that there are elements of the ME2 Combat system you are not considering when you write off other players.

The defenses I've seen, seem to work differently then what you seem to be describing, IMHO.

*********************************************************

@ lazuli, maybe connect the % recharge to Singularity only, or better yet, connected to the class Passive, as you mentioned in your OP.

So then only the Adept class is impacted (maybe Liara if she returns with Singularity in ME3).

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:44 .

[kelsjet]

sinosleep wrote...

Show me video of adepts one shotting enemies with pistols on insanity.

I don't need to, since, unlike you, I have not made it my goal on these forums to try to convince people that I am right and they are wrong due to a difference in definitions. And I most certainly don't subscribe to the "unless you have made X number of videos your points are null and void", which I think is a silly concept.

Basically, countering your basic premise ("it is hard to kill defenseless enemies") does not need video proof, just a brain. I have yet to see anyone complain that they can't kill defenseless enemies with guns, or that guns are somehow underpowered. You don't need to make videos to show what everyone can tell within the first 5 minutes of gameplay.


As a side point, one to ponder on, think what would be the state of the game if guns were underpowered (like you are suggesting). The entire soldier class would be broken. This is obviously not the case.

[Praetor Knight]

kelsjet wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

Show me video of adepts one shotting enemies with pistols on insanity.

I don't need to, since, unlike you, I have not made it my goal on these forums to try to convince people that I am right and they are wrong due to a difference in definitions. And I most certainly don't subscribe to the "unless you have made X number of videos your points are null and void", which I think is a silly concept.

Basically, countering your basic premise ("it is hard to kill defenseless enemies") does not need video proof, just a brain. I have yet to see anyone complain that they can't kill defenseless enemies with guns, or that guns are somehow underpowered. You don't need to make videos to show what everyone can tell within the first 5 minutes of gameplay.


As a side point, one to ponder on, think what would be the state of the game if guns were underpowered (like you are suggesting). The entire soldier class would be broken. This is obviously not the case.

Well, lets stay on topic, maybe you could start your own thread.

[sinosleep]

delete

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:51 .

[brokit808]

i know a way to solve everyones problem with adepts.



Let their abilities effect enemies with defenses (i.e. be able to life someone with shields/barrier up)