77 réponses à ce sujet

[kelsjet]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
Well, lets stay on topic, maybe you could start your own thread.

True true.

As far as the OP's point goes. A leach/regen effect on all biotic powers may to heavily over-emphasize a biotic playstyle that revolves around maximizing the amount of time the adept can remain out of cover (and shooting). While not a bad addition to that playstyle, it can also, inadvertently, reduce the combat effectiveness of a potential playstyle that revolves around the biotic not wanting to use weapons, i.e. an adept that relies solely on staying in cover and shooting powerful biotic attacks without popping out much.

The point being that a barrier leach effect wont nerf the latter, but may buff the former playstyle to the point where it may end up being optimal, and hence, a dominant strategy on "how to play the adept". As we all know, dominant strategies are not good for a game.

Modifié par kelsjet, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:02 .

[Praetor Knight]

Maybe limit the regen to the Nemesis evolution, so instead of 15% power damage you get a 15% recharge buff?

Oh, and maybe the Power Recharge Time could be reduced to 15% from the original 20% on the Nemesis evolution.

I'm assuming that the main goal for most Adepts is to control the battlefield, so would that 15% power damage be missed with the Nemesis evolution?

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:05 .

[Bozorgmehr]

kelsjet wrote...

I don't think anyone has ever stated that the Adept is a "non-functional" class in ME2, but instead, that it is a pointless one. There is a significant qualitative difference between the two statements.

What's the point of playing games, anyway? Is it functional?

The point those guys are trying to make isn't that they can't get through the game on insanity on adept, but that being an adept on insanity is pointless since you end up playing the game like a nerfed soldier, i.e. you can pretty much go through the entire game on adept without using your powers, i.e just shooting.

Any class can complete ME2 without using powers (pointless argument); Adepts however can also complete the game without using weapons at all. Guess biotics do have purpose and can be used 'functional'.

At the end of the day, the adept class is pointless, not broken. Because by the time you get the enemy to a place where you can use your biotics, you can just as easily (and in most cases, much more easily) kill them with a single bullet. That is the core reason why Adepts in ME2 are pointless, since the majority of the heavy lifting in combat is done with guns. At that point, biotic powers are just like flashy finishing moves.

You obviously don't know how biotic powers work. A CC ed enemy can't shoot ya, making it easier to kill that enemy or one of his palls. Biotics are not just "flashy finishing moves".

Like everyone else, I too have completed the game on insanity with my Adept, though, I have actually found that I can get through the entire game without having to use a single player biotic power, which in most situations, actually makes playing the adept easier (since you aren't forced to "find situations where I can use my biotics", and instead can just continue killing things with guns).

Well congrats I guess Would be a very tedious and slow playthrough - I get some idea why you don't like the ME2 Adept.

As a side point, one to ponder on, think what would be the state of the
game if guns were underpowered (like you are suggesting). The entire
soldier class would be broken. This is obviously not the case.

Uh, The Soldier class is the one that's broken and one of the main reasons people like you complain about Adepts (being a non-functional pointless class): Soldiers have 6 powers (5 are completely useless BTW), the remaining power is so powerful it breaks the game. No need to use squadmates, tactics or whatever - spamming ARush all day long is what Soldiering is about (IMHO very boring).

Adepts need to use squadmates, biotics and weapons to be truly effective, i.e. they use all ME2 has to offer instead of just one ability all the time. Instead of having a bunch of pointless, non-functional powers (Soldiers), Adepts can use multiple (non OP) powers depending on the situation. The Adept is meant for players looking for tactical chessmaster-style gameplay; approaching missions with a plan, and using powers, squadmates and weapons combined rather than a million bullets and an itchy trigger-finger.

[Bozorgmehr]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Maybe limit the regen to the Nemesis evolution, so instead of 15% power damage you get a 15% recharge buff?

Oh, and maybe the Power Recharge Time could be reduced to 15% from the original 20% on the Nemesis evolution.

I'm assuming that the main goal for most Adepts is to control the battlefield, so would that 15% power damage be missed with the Nemesis evolution?

I never missed Nemesis' Power Damage bonus. If your powers can strip enemy defenses in one go you're good - additional damage is redundant IMHO (that's why I always go Bastion, 20% duration bonus for Pull and Singularity is great).

Maybe an ability / power that can be turned on/off like Ammo Powers reducing (shield) damage taken by ~50%, but also increasing cooldown by same amount could work. This would allow Adepts to use their biotic power to soak up damage, but also (and at the same time) use powers on enemies, only less frequently (much better than Barrier for example).

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:25 .

[lazuli]

Thanks for getting back on track. I think most of us can agree that the system I proposed in the original post is simply too powerful, especially with powers like Throw and Pull.



As for the Nemesis evolution, it is my understanding that, at least on the strategy forums, that evolution is not often favored over Bastion. Linking some sort of defense boost to Nemesis would be one way to make it more appealing. As was suggested earlier, the damage boost could be removed. It isn't necessary. Adepts can do massive damage with Warp, but lack other heavily damaging powers. And even without that damage boost, their Warps and Warp Explosions will still deal significant damage to enemy defenses, often stripping them outright.

[Sparrow44]

You make some good points lazuli, what I'd propose is in some ways the opposite of what you suggested and make Barrier boost biotics either by cooldowns or damage or a bit of both as long as it's active, kindof like the biotic equivalent of Power Armour without the pulse and the shield regen.



Of course this could be Adept exclusive, and you have a reason to use Barrier tactically rather than as a pure panic button. As for bypassing defenses and being able to ragdoll foes, could be a bit overpowered but perhaps given that under fire your barrier won't last and waiting for the cooldown you could ragdoll anyone as long as Barrier is still active.

[Bozorgmehr]

lazuli wrote...

Thanks for getting back on track. I think most of us can agree that the system I proposed in the original post is simply too powerful, especially with powers like Throw and Pull.

As for the Nemesis evolution, it is my understanding that, at least on the strategy forums, that evolution is not often favored over Bastion. Linking some sort of defense boost to Nemesis would be one way to make it more appealing.

I would switch them; Nemesis is the offensive, damage dealing spec, while Bastion is a more defensive/supportive spec. But they're just names so it doesn't really matter

Giving Adepts an (optional) edge in CQC is what matters, and I'm with the Romans on this: "Fortes fortuna adiuvat" - Fortune favors the bold. This principle is brilliantly incorporated in Charge, and Vanguards, being Adept's closest relatives, are biotics too.

Maybe linking Singularity's damage drain to Shepard might work:
► Only Adepts can use it.
► There can only be one Singularity in play (spamming doesn't work well).
► Damage drain is relatively small and slow and therefore better suited to regen Shep's shield (and not too powerful).
► Draining damage taken by enemies restores shield over time. It's even possible to gain health (similar to Reave) if Singularity is holding (and draining) enemy health; if Singularity drains enemy defenses, it'll slowly regens Shepard's shield/barrier.

You can use Passive to gain these effects, or taking an Evolved version (Singularity) at rank 4.

[lazuli]

Interesting suggestions, but I think Singularity is already incredibly powerful.



What if powers restored Barrier only while your Barrier is still up? This would force the player to be proactive about his or her defenses. Rushing into melee would likely wind up in the Barrier falling, unless you carefully plan when you'll throw a power out there or take other suitable precautions. Using the Barrier power in combination with these effects would allow the Adept to keep his or her defenses up longer. Balancing this between difficulty levels would be tricky, though. On lower difficulty levels, the Barrier would almost never fall. On higher difficulty levels, the bonus would be negligible. With the right number tweaking, a good mix could be found. I don't think anyone wants Adepts to be invincible in close combat, after all.



I think the biggest problem with this suggestion is that it doesn't help the Adept get back into action any faster after being dropped down to health. Combining this suggestion with a change to Barrier might hold the key. We don't know how bonus powers will work in ME3, or if they will exist at all. I propose that Barrier returns to its status as a core power available to the Adept, at least. Drop the cooldown and drop the amount of shields it provides.

[superfatman]

It would probably be less complicated to just make it so that all the squad power shield/barrier/armor bonuses (GSB, Barrier, Fortification) lasted until destroyed like with tech armor.



Also doesn't the Samara loyalty power already do this?

[lazuli]

superfatman wrote...

It would probably be less complicated to just make it so that all the squad power shield/barrier/armor bonuses (GSB, Barrier, Fortification) lasted until destroyed like with tech armor.

Also doesn't the Samara loyalty power already do this?

Reave has a defensive use, yes.  When hitting organic opponents' health, it will drain it to restore the user's health.  I'm proposing something different though, with perhaps all Biotic powers instantly restoring a small amount of barrier once used, though with some sort of limits imposed for the sake of balance.

But I'm beginning to agree with you that it would be less complicated to tweak the defensive power options.  Either make them last until destroyed, or remove their punitive cooldowns and lessen their effects.  I have no doubt, though, that Bioware toyed around with the defensive powers' numbers when testing ME2.

While we're talking about changing these defensive powers, what do you think of alternate evolutions of these powers providing squad bonuses instead of increased duration?

Squad Barrier: Increases the user's shields by +75%.  Increases the squad's shields by +25%.

I wouldn't propose this for all three.  Rather, it would help differentiate them from one another.

[Sparrow44]

In ME1 choosing Bastion and having Barrier Specialization meant that Barrier would regenerate so many points per second, something like this perhaps?

Another idea would be to expand on the passive evolutions from ME2 for example:

Nemesis only really benefits Warp and Warp Explosions and Bastion affects Singularity and Pull. So how about if Nemesis would let Throw and Pull bypass defenses as long as you had evolved them (Heavy versions) and Bastion bolstered Barrier and improved cooldowns.

[Sparrow44]

lazuli wrote...

Squad Barrier: Increases the user's shields by +75%.  Increases the squad's shields by +25%.

I wouldn't propose this for all three.  Rather, it would help differentiate them from one another.

I remember thinking Squad Tech Armour as an evolution as well, would actually suit the lore of the Sentinel in a way but yeah seperate evolutions for each shield power.

Tech Armour has it's shield regen and pulse as well as increased power damage depending which one you choose, Geth Shield Boost offers increased weapon damage so really Barrier (and Fortification) could do with a buff.

[Bozorgmehr]

lazuli wrote...

superfatman wrote...

It would probably be less complicated to just make it so that all the squad power shield/barrier/armor bonuses (GSB, Barrier, Fortification) lasted until destroyed like with tech armor.

But I'm beginning to agree with you that it would be less complicated to tweak the defensive power options.  Either make them last until destroyed, or remove their punitive cooldowns and lessen their effects.  I have no doubt, though, that Bioware toyed around with the defensive powers' numbers when testing ME2.

Last until destroyed doesn't add much to these powers; Barrier (and the other defensive buffs) last 60 s [default] and can receive +40% duration through bonus/research. Furthermore, my Barrier (or Tech Armor) never last that long. I don't think added duration will help much though it would be nice to be notified when effect wears off (you have to check squadscreen to find out if Barrier is still active).

There are roughly two ways to use such a system:
- powers working similar to Reave, ED (drain to boost health/shield) and Charge (regen using power).
- or, BW has to drop the global cooldown system altogether and use a ME1 style cd system, or a mana pool like in DA:O.

The latter could be used like the DA:O sustainables, but a limited manapool (and no potions to restore it) could weaken the Adept (particularly during longer fights).

[Bozorgmehr]

Sparroww wrote...

Tech Armour has it's shield regen and pulse as well as increased power damage depending which one you choose, Geth Shield Boost offers increased weapon damage so really Barrier (and Fortification) could do with a buff.

Barrier is the only ME2 power without an animation, it can be used always (when other powers don't work) - I'll take Barrier over GSB and Fortification any day, just for this.

Problem with Barrier is its long cooldown. Well not exactly, the inability to use powers after activating Barrier is. Barrier will increase the Adept's CQC abilities, but they can't use their other biotic powers much. There must be some middle way, a compromise boosting CQC/defense without (completely) rendering the other powers useless.

That's the beauty of Charge. It rewards players who take risks. It's an offensive and defensive power combined. Its problem is the inballance towards a VG other powers (Charge is too powerful). Lazuli's proposal (implemented right) could also balance powers for Vanguards. If Charge doesn't regen shield, but other powers available would - Vanguards are likely going to use multiple powers instead of only Charge.

[lazuli]

My suggestion only stands if cooldowns remain more or less the same as they are in ME2. In my opinion, defensive powers suffered from the switch to global cooldowns. Only when I am making mistakes left and right do I cast Barrier twice in a row. Perhaps cycling cooldowns or some other system would be better than regaining Barrier when using Biotics. That would probably warrant a separate thread though.

[Lumikki]

lazuli wrote...

So what do you think?

Not much to say but this, if bionics talent is restoring Barrier, then anyone who has Bionic talent and Barrier should be able to do it too. I mean it would make better sense. Adept isn't anyting special, it's just one of the possible classes and that's it.

Modifié par Lumikki, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:06 .

[Sparrow44]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Sparroww wrote...

Tech Armour has it's shield regen and pulse as well as increased power damage depending which one you choose, Geth Shield Boost offers increased weapon damage so really Barrier (and Fortification) could do with a buff.

Barrier is the only ME2 power without an animation, it can be used always (when other powers don't work) - I'll take Barrier over GSB and Fortification any day, just for this.

It's feature of having no animation is ok, but overall it basically means if you're caught staggered and you're down to health then it's still a panic button. My suggestion was to find a practical use for Barrier but not neccesarily taking anything from it as it has nothing else to speak of really.

In ME1 Master Barrier with a Bastion Adept meant you had a very strong layer of defense and even that had an animation, so anything that could improve Adept's casting capabilities whilst keeping them alive like the OP suggests would be nice.

[Shotokanguy]

If Adepts or biotics not being powerful enough is an issue, it was only because of ME2's mechanics. I've always hated the "armor" bar. Makes no sense, just give us health and shields/barriers. Make shields and barriers have different resistances and strengths.

[IceSavage]

The player / companion defense system needs an overhaul. Right now in the current system we just have shields and HP, while the enemies have HP,Shields, Armor and Barrier.



Why cant that system be transferred to the player as well.

Soldier would be mainly armor. Engineers would focus on Shields and Adepts would have a barrier system. The hybrid classes would have dual protection.



There would be a whole new strategy involved because enemies would have the same different attack properties like the player has now. IE shotgun using bad guys would hurt engineers more then soldiers. Soldiers would have to watch for hand cannon gun users.



It would add even more variety to the gameplay since some areas would be harder for one class then others.

[IceSavage]

Well, it would depend on how much protection the dual hybrids get to be considered overpowered.



If an infiltrator gets 50% armor and 50% shields. Is overpowered to a soldier who would get 100% armor. It would all depend on the system. Overall though an inventory system needs to return, especially for armor. A paper doll system of Shield slot, armor slot and bio amp protector slot would be cool.



I like getting into the RPG element of looking at gear and choosing to stats bonuses that i like the best. Some people might say it detracts from the shooter element, but ME2 was so minimalistic in the inventory department that there needs to be an improvement to it.



The devs went from 1 extreme of too much gear (though most of it wasnt all that good) in ME1 to almost no gear in ME2. They need to find a good middle.



The amount of gear that KotOR1 had (also made by Bioware) is about what there should be.

[brokit808]

you may want all biotic powers to restore some barrier when used but that doesnt really make sense in the ME universe. when using powers it doesnt make you stronger if anything it would make you weaker. it would take a great deal of concentration to use an ability and have it increase ur barrier at the same time. this is a feat for Jake or Samara maybe but not sheperd.

[lazuli]

brokit808 wrote...

you may want all biotic powers to restore some barrier when used but that doesnt really make sense in the ME universe. when using powers it doesnt make you stronger if anything it would make you weaker. it would take a great deal of concentration to use an ability and have it increase ur barrier at the same time. this is a feat for Jake or Samara maybe but not sheperd.

Thanks for bringing the lore perspective into play.  I am of the opinion that gameplay doesn't need to adhere to the lore as much as, say, the story or characters should.  Adept Shepards are supposed to be formidable Biotics.  I don't think it would be out of line for an Adept.

[Bozorgmehr]

lazuli wrote...

brokit808 wrote...

you may want all biotic powers to restore some barrier when used but that doesnt really make sense in the ME universe. when using powers it doesnt make you stronger if anything it would make you weaker. it would take a great deal of concentration to use an ability and have it increase ur barrier at the same time. this is a feat for Jake or Samara maybe but not sheperd.

Thanks for bringing the lore perspective into play.  I am of the opinion that gameplay doesn't need to adhere to the lore as much as, say, the story or characters should.  Adept Shepards are supposed to be formidable Biotics.  I don't think it would be out of line for an Adept.

Yeah, and Vanguard's Charge would be pretty useless if it didn't restored some shield. It doesn't make sense that the ME2 Vanguard is so much more durable than the ME2 Adept, while in ME1 it didn't. Vanguard should be less powerful biotics than Adepts, but better with weapons. Something needs to be done about this, question is what to do exactly.