46 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

(husband)

In reading the Chantry / Circle threads this idea comes to mind....    Would it be worth risking "An Exalted March" in post Blight years (Long after rebuilding), to try to grab up some of the Chantry wealth and power for Ferelden's crown (by Anora or someone other future ambitiious monarch)?


1) You have the Lyrium trade (Someone said this is a monopoly by Ferelden.  Not sure if that's true, but will asume it si for the time being)


2) You have the Circle.   Which is a wonderful strategic asset.   The loyalty of the mages could easily be won with promises to make their life better with reforms.    And their could be more of a move to make them as official civil servants and work on the outside.    The templars are also a wonderful asset that might welcome more liberalization (I expect them however to be more loyal to the Chantry than the mages).


3) Chantry tithes and properties.   The Crown could easily take a cut from the tithe as a stealth tax rather than ship it off to Orlai.    And some of the problematic chantries, the ones that always complain about crown policy or the monarch you could dissolve and take their stuff.


All this income generated could go towards starting the Ferelden Renaissance rather than struggling to gather the funds to build universities, fleets etc.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

it would be very feasible to pull this off successfully, but first, Ferelden must be in a better position to deal with the possibility of Chantry backlash. It needs a strong government and military, as well as some decent military and political alliances with other nations who would be willing to follow a similar course.



But yes, I think it would be a great idea. As I've said before, I believe the circle should be under the authority of the Crown, not church, because it is a powerful and invaluable asset and advantage. And control over the lyrium trade would be even better.

[Maria13]

Except that the Divine in Orlais would come thundering over the Frostbacks to crush the incipient rebellion. Don't forget that England is an Island but Ferelden is not and its sole neighbour is Orlais...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Which is why you need a strong leader and alliances with other powerful entities.



Of course, if you're good, you could broker some sort of deal with orzammar and gain control of the lyrium trade. Without lyrium, the Chantry is going to have problems keeping its army of drug addicts from wigging out. So, at least part of the problem has been dealt with.



The Chantry would be more dependant upon actually getting multiple nations of Thedas to give armies to march on Ferelden, which is alot harder than it sounds. Especially if other Chantry nations are having problems with other things, and either can't or won't send troops on Chantry business, when they are needed or desired for other things.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Too risky. Taking control of the Lyrium trade is useless if there is no one you can trade it with (it's the Chantry that dominates the lyrium trade). And that assumes that the Dwarves will side with you. To strangle the Chantry carries the risk of offending every other nation out there, who have not as much to gain as you.

This plan is feasible only if the Chantry weakens considerably due to outside pressures. If that happens, then what you are proposing is the logical thing to do, though I would still emphasize on the importance of a navy. The control over the Lyrium trade will only be useful if other nations start wanting to import Lyrium (which as it stands is not the case with the possible exception of Tevinter that can easily be blocked off from Ferelden anyways).

[Addai]

(wifely side of Addai67)

Apparently Maric and Loghain were considering liquidating the Chantry after the rebellion and decided that it was impractical not due to possible repurcussions from outside, but because Andrastianism was deeply rooted in the people. It would take as long and as repressive a haul as the one the Tudors instituted to see the Chantry uprooted from Ferelden's everyday life.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

it would be very feasible to pull this off successfully, but first, Ferelden must be in a better position to deal with the possibility of Chantry backlash. It needs a strong government and military, as well as some decent military and political alliances with other nations who would be willing to follow a similar course.

But yes, I think it would be a great idea. As I've said before, I believe the circle should be under the authority of the Crown, not church, because it is a powerful and invaluable asset and advantage. And control over the lyrium trade would be even better.

(Husband)

My assumptions for the scenario would be that there would be a major effort to build up defenses, recruit allies and even go on quests to get magic artificats much like in Origons and Awakening, but rather than doing this reactively you are doing it proactively so you can Pearl Harbor the Chantry and at least deal with an immediate local and Orlain backlash.    The biggest problem I see is the problem like dealing with the JApanese of WWII is the problem of a protraced war.

[Addai]

double post

Modifié par Addai67, 03 janvier 2011 - 10:46 .

[Addai]

Addai67 wrote...

(wifely side of Addai67)
Apparently Maric and Loghain were considering liquidating the Chantry after the rebellion and decided that it was impractical not due to possible repurcussions from outside, but because Andrastianism was deeply rooted in the people. It would take as long and as repressive a haul as the one the Tudors instituted to see the Chantry uprooted from Ferelden's everyday life.

(husband)
 
That's an interesting point I forgot.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:10 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Too risky. Taking control of the Lyrium trade is useless if there is no one you can trade it with (it's the Chantry that dominates the lyrium trade). And that assumes that the Dwarves will side with you. To strangle the Chantry carries the risk of offending every other nation out there, who have not as much to gain as you.
This plan is feasible only if the Chantry weakens considerably due to outside pressures. If that happens, then what you are proposing is the logical thing to do, though I would still emphasize on the importance of a navy. The control over the Lyrium trade will only be useful if other nations start wanting to import Lyrium (which as it stands is not the case with the possible exception of Tevinter that can easily be blocked off from Ferelden anyways).

(husband)

It's defintely risky.   The biggest risk I see the Chantry would proclaim a Crusade that would justify a invasion and annexation of Ferelden that would be on par with the one of the Stolen Throne.


What I like about the idea is it is a great way to upgrade Ferelden.   Ferelden at its best really would have trouble becoming a empire or colonials power as far as fighting wars of conquest and keeping the gains.   With this however, all the supply line issues are in your favor.


As for the Lirium trade issue, I guess I keep thinking about Dune, "He who controls the Spice controls the Universe".

[blothulfur]

Don't go to war at all you have divine proof of andrastes birthplace in ferelden at the urn of sacred ashes which can be used to undermine the chantrys power centre in orlais, lyrium has to travel through your land so you tax the hell out of it at the border to orlais while giving concessions to allied chantry nations and you grant patronage and favour to those chantry mothers who are of a more nationalistic bent (which there might be a few of following the war).

If the divine is contemplating an exalted march she must have some reason and the devout homeland of their prophet with its blight veteran army and the support of allied andrastian nations is much less attractive than an expansionist warlike state bent on remaking the chantry.

That's my take anyway, worm away at the system from inside.

[White_Buffalo94]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Too risky. Taking control of the Lyrium trade is useless if there is no one you can trade it with (it's the Chantry that dominates the lyrium trade). And that assumes that the Dwarves will side with you. To strangle the Chantry carries the risk of offending every other nation out there, who have not as much to gain as you.
This plan is feasible only if the Chantry weakens considerably due to outside pressures. If that happens, then what you are proposing is the logical thing to do, though I would still emphasize on the importance of a navy. The control over the Lyrium trade will only be useful if other nations start wanting to import Lyrium (which as it stands is not the case with the possible exception of Tevinter that can easily be blocked off from Ferelden anyways).

The towers in all nations would buy the lyrium though, And like someone above said, without lyrium, the army of templars would be useless.
The Tevinter Imperium and Rivain would surely help as they follow the Imperial Chantry and the Qun, respectively. Also the Circle of Minrathous would greatly benefit from having all of that extra lyrium.
Also, Nevarra and Orlais or arch-nemeses as I remember and would not help Orlais fight Fereldens take over. Antiva has no standing army, only the Crows which, with the money from the lyrium trade, would be made allies of Ferelden. The Free Marches is controlled by Templars and would become a useless ally to the Chantry, making the Free Marches an ally null on both sides. The Anderfels is ruled by Wardens, who are neutral. So it wouldn't be risky at all with this type of power behind Ferelden. Plus the Dwarves of Orzammar who have a lot to gain from helping Ferelden. More money in their coffers means more arms and men to fight Darkspawn

[Reika]

That's some interesting ideas, blothulfur. I especially like the idea of using the Ashes in some way.

[blothulfur]

Thank you Reika, the discovery of the ashes seem a world changing event to me in terms of the andrastian chantry. However much they talk of faith not needing evidence, most religious people would like confirmation of their beliefs I think and a smart ruler would sell them that and use it (whether it is true or not).

[Addai]

Reika wrote...

That's some interesting ideas, blothulfur. I especially like the idea of using the Ashes in some way.

(huband)

Yes I like it as well.   I think at least on the surface its more feasible.   My one point of contention is that heavy profiteering on a resource could itself be a cause for war.     Luckly enough mages and templars are a small enough group that their pleas can probably be ignored when they suffer from lirium withdrawal (Because I think there will a lot of resistance to paying high fees at least inititially).


Besides that I think theirs a good chance to the Chantry might try to call the bluff and force the hand on a half way measure like this.   Like sending a large force of templars through the border, carrying back lirium and basically daring the authorities to do something about it.

[blothulfur]

It was the darkspawn that killed 'em all your holiness, they're still a terrible problem in the frostbacks which is the the reasons for the high taxes we are charging.

We must rebuild ferelden and make it strong again or the dwarven king who I put on the throne may not risk sending out lyrium at all for a good long while.

No it's not a threat your divine holiness, merely a statement of possibilities now take your damn templars out of my country before I recall general loghain to my side and order him to close the borders.

With all due respect your divine holiness.

[Reika]

*laughs* That's along the lines of what I was thinking.



That or dragons got them. They've been a terrible nuisance ever since those adventurers stirred up those crazy cultists...



(Nevermind the fact said adventurers could quite very be one or both of the ruling monarchs...)

[KnightofPhoenix]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...
The towers in all nations would buy the lyrium though, And like someone above said, without lyrium, the army of templars would be useless.

They are controlled by the Chantry and that's why I said, unless the Chantry's power diminishes, Ferelden cannot control the Lyrium trade on its own.

White_Buffalo94 wrote...
The Tevinter Imperium and Rivain would surely help as they follow the Imperial Chantry and the Qun, respectively.

Ferelden can be easily blockaded from them.

White_Buffalo94 wrote...
Plus the Dwarves of Orzammar who have a lot to gain from helping Ferelden. More money in their coffers means more arms and men to fight Darkspawn

No, the Dwarves have nothing to gain from this. They would lose their main importer (the Chantry) in exchange for the poor Ferelden that can barely afford anything.

As it stands, Orzammar needs the Chantry like the Chantry needs it. Only by the Chantry weakening and the lyrium trade expanding (by nations taking over), can Orzammar benefit. Ferelden can't bring this on its own and certainly not by blockading the trade. Ferelden is not even a producer of Lyrium. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Besides that I think theirs a good chance to the Chantry might try to call the bluff and force the hand on a half way measure like this.   Like sending a large force of templars through the border, carrying back lirium and basically daring the authorities to do something about it.

All they need to do is initiate an invasion by sea (a la Orlais) and take over the Forstback mountains, who are close to the borders and can be easily supplied. They don't even need to invade Ferelden entirely, just take over this part and fortify it. 

[Reika]

The biggest thing with the Chantry is finding some means of weakening its influence.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

(husband)

[quote]It's defintely risky.   The biggest risk I see the Chantry would proclaim a Crusade that would justify a invasion and annexation of Ferelden that would be on par with the one of the Stolen Throne.[/quote]

One does not have to wipe out Andrasteism, just the Chantry side of things. the Chantry itself was not founded by Andraste or even her immediate followers, it was formed centuries after her death. By Orlesians. Formation of an independant Andrastian sect would not be necessarily breaking people completely of their religion.


[quote]What I like about the idea is it is a great way to upgrade Ferelden.   Ferelden at its best really would have trouble becoming a empire or colonials power as far as fighting wars of conquest and keeping the gains.   With this however, all the supply line issues are in your favor.[/quote]

Yeah, it would. It would


[quote]As for the Lirium trade issue, I guess I keep thinking about Dune, "He who controls the Spice controls the Universe".
[/quote]

Though not exactly the same thing, it is still a reasonable comparison in terms of lyrium's value. And since orzammar opens up onto Ferelden territory, and dwarves are the only source of the stuff, Ferelden geographically has one major advantage.

The Chantry isn't the only customer for lyrium, remember. mages need it. And tranquil use it for their enchantments. The lyrium itself is what's important. There are more factions than just the Chantry who want lyrium. And losing control of the lyrium trade weakens the Chantry alot. I think the benefits of such an enterprise outweigh the risks.

[Addai]

blothulfur wrote...

all you have divine proof of andrastes birthplace in ferelden at the urn of sacred ashes which can be used to undermine the chantrys power centre in orlais, .

The Andraste idea is a interesting one.    One big point of caution, based on Christian Church History its really easy to become a heretic by doing things like this!   Depending on how you phrase it, the Chantry could easily say "Who are you to interpret the Will of the Maker?   The Maker speaks to only one person and that is the Divine!"    So you could very easily actually make a cause for a Divine March if it looks like you are proclaiming a new dogma, than with  a power grab (A schism with the intention to not really touch dogma).

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:36 .

[blothulfur]

I'm thinking the orlesian chantry may be advocating a move to retake the frostbacks once news of the ashes discovery reaches them so that they can claim the relic as well as secure the lyrium supplies, but what reason do they use when declaring war on a good chantry loving nation that threw back a blight single handed and what do neighbouring nations think of this.
Also that is a long line of defence to hold, but maybe they will try their steel against the fereldens again and if so i'm glad I kept loghain alive (unless they've allready killed him).
Good point with the heresy accusations, it would require some careful politicing and underhandedness to wrestle a measure of power from the divine.

Modifié par blothulfur, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:42 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I don't think you can have a schism in the Chantry without a signifigant change in the Dogma. It's what caused the divisons necessary to create the Roman/Byzantine churches, then the reformation, and it was also the case in the split between Minrathos and Val Royeaux.



You would have to weaken Chantry influence. We shall have to see what other places in Thedas are like in terms of the Chantry, as well as the influence of the threat of the qunari.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Besides that I think theirs a good chance to the Chantry might try to call the bluff and force the hand on a half way measure like this.   Like sending a large force of templars through the border, carrying back lirium and basically daring the authorities to do something about it.

All they need to do is initiate an invasion by sea (a la Orlais) and take over the Forstback mountains, who are close to the borders and can be easily supplied. They don't even need to invade Ferelden entirely, just take over this part and fortify it. 

(husband)  

(re-edit) You know with his plan that might work, because I don't think he would have the border as fortified as I would.


I actually assumed that Orlai would rather employ bards to be lirium smugglers.    If the price is high it would be totally worth it and should be easy to do.   Much lower risk than other bard activities.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:47 .