46 réponses à ce sujet

[blothulfur]

You see I see a schism as counter poductive, use what is allready in place but see if you can put a ferelden native on the divines throne one who has touched the ashes themselves and therefore been approved by the makers bride.

France if I remember correctly declared its own pope sometime in the middle ages, and the king carried enough influence with rome to condemn the poor old templars and thus get his hands on their cash and estates. Do something similar, though not so bloody obvious.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


No, the Dwarves have nothing to gain from this. They would lose their main importer (the Chantry) in exchange for the poor Ferelden that can barely afford anything.

of course they do. Cold hard cash isn't the only currency of diplomacy and trade. The dwarven need is survival. Ferelden's most pressing need is more wealth. The two can benefit greatly from one another. the dwarves sell their lyrium to the Ferelden crown. Ferelden offers support in the form of troops and resources, scholars and resrearchers, to push back the darkspawn and assist dwarven reclaimation efforts.

And one of the biggest imports for the dwarves is food, something the Bannorn produces in abundance.

As it stands, Orzammar needs the Chantry like the Chantry needs it. Only by the Chantry weakening and the lyrium trade expanding (by nations taking over), can Orzammar benefit. Ferelden can't bring this on its own and certainly not by blockading the trade. Ferelden is not even a producer of Lyrium. 

The dwarves don't need the Chantry, they need humans who can buy their lyrium. The Chantry, however, needs the dwarves because there's no other way to get the stuff.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I don't think you can have a schism in the Chantry without a signifigant change in the Dogma. It's what caused the divisons necessary to create the Roman/Byzantine churches, then the reformation, and it was also the case in the split between Minrathos and Val Royeaux.

You would have to weaken Chantry influence. We shall have to see what other places in Thedas are like in terms of the Chantry, as well as the influence of the threat of the qunari.

(husband)

Yeah I should have thought that one through better....  

Well using the Henry VIII the idea of the monarch as the head of the Church rather than the pope.    That idea had existed before in earlier times.   (My wife an amateur medievalist is more the expert on that than I).   Much of what Henry VIII was doing (if you can put aside the Protestants whispering in his ear) was trying to roll things back for his own advantage.    So that's what I'm talking about.


You aren't trying to challenge the position of the pope aka Divine, but limit the Divines reach.   Kind of like Eastern Orthodox did with later interpretations of the Supremecy of the Pope that came out of the Filioque controversy. They weren't trying to be like Protestants interpretting the Bible and doctrine for themselves but rather basing their views on an older view of "Holy Tradition" that was also held by Catholics for the 1st 1000 years.


So anyway that would be tack, if the game Lore and David Gaider would cooperate and let it be so.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The two can benefit greatly from one another. the dwarves sell their lyrium to the Ferelden crown.

And what would Ferelden do with it?
Are its need and wealth so great that it can replace the Chantry as the main buyer of Lyrium? How and why?

Ferelden is poor and its need for lyrium is very limited. It cannot substitute for the Chantry now. Hence, the Dwarves need the Chantry for the moment and Ferelden is not going to replace it. Unless the Chantry as a whole starts to collapse and the other nations decide to join in on the trade.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:55 .

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...
The towers in all nations would buy the lyrium though, And like someone above said, without lyrium, the army of templars would be useless.

They are controlled by the Chantry and that's why I said, unless the Chantry's power diminishes, Ferelden cannot control the Lyrium trade on its own.

White_Buffalo94 wrote...
The Tevinter Imperium and Rivain would surely help as they follow the Imperial Chantry and the Qun, respectively.

Ferelden can be easily blockaded from them.

White_Buffalo94 wrote...
Plus the Dwarves of Orzammar who have a lot to gain from helping Ferelden. More money in their coffers means more arms and men to fight Darkspawn

No, the Dwarves have nothing to gain from this. They would lose their main importer (the Chantry) in exchange for the poor Ferelden that can barely afford anything.

As it stands, Orzammar needs the Chantry like the Chantry needs it. Only by the Chantry weakening and the lyrium trade expanding (by nations taking over), can Orzammar benefit. Ferelden can't bring this on its own and certainly not by blockading the trade. Ferelden is not even a producer of Lyrium. 

Agree with this.  By declaring war on the Chantry Ferelden would be declaring war on Orlais. Also of the view it is terribly optimistic to think that Nevara and Rivain would openly side with Ferelden.  History shows that such things never happen, rather they will sit back let Ferelden and Orlais slug it out and see who the winner is.  Pearl Harbour appropriate comparator it took two atomic bombs the most lethal weapon known to man to get Japan too surrender and Japan is a small country. "The worst thing that would happen is if this war became protracted" How could it not become protracted?  Most wars are protracted especially where they involve one nation trying to conquer another or one creed trying by force to suppress another...

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The two can benefit greatly from one another. the dwarves sell their lyrium to the Ferelden crown.

And what would Ferelden do with it?
Are its need and wealth so great that it can replace the Chantry as the main buyer of Lyrium? How and why?

Ferelden is poor and its need for lyrium is very limited. It cannot substitute for the Chantry now. Hence, the Dwarves need the Chantry for the moment and Ferelden is not going to replace it. Unless the Chantry as a whole starts to collapse and the other nations decide to join in on the trade.

(husband)

Would having Hawke the blood mage have the Circle chanting "Hope and Change" (for their independence) be good enough?   Or would that need to be followed up by a Babylonian Captivity of the Divine?

www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Babylonian_Captivity_of_the_Papacy

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:13 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


And what would Ferelden do with it?
Are its need and wealth so great that it can replace the Chantry as the main buyer of Lyrium? How and why?

Ferelden gets what it needs of the lyrium. The rest can be sold. Now, who, you ask, would by the stuff, since we are bypassing the Chantry alltogether? Ferelden wouldn't be the only country that could make use of it. And there's always room for a powerful middleman the Chantry will have difficulty supressing.

The Antivan crows come to mind. Antiva itself, as a nation, has no standing military, and its monarch at any given time is a puppet of the Crows. So when one is talking about making overtures to Antiva, one must be dealing with the Crows. The Crows, as an organization, are one of the most powerful in Thedas, given that everyone fears them, but will still deal with them. The qunari tried to hold Antiva after an invasion, and were forced out by the activities of the Crows, and because of this, are reluctant to return because of this.

The power they have can't be underestimated, and we don''t fully know the extent of their reach, but we know it must be pretty far. And the Crows are motivated primarily by two things: power and money. Working a deal for distribution of the stuff gives them both. And if anyone can find buyers for non-Chantry lyrium, they could. Without much trouble, I think, as many countries, even Chantry-run ones, could certainly find uses for it. I don't think finding a market would be a problem. And between Ferelden and Antiva are the Free marches, which are really a loose collection of independant city-states. It wouldn't be terribly difficult negotioating with some of them to get the stuff from ferelden to Antiva. Plus, there's Gwaren if the Waking see becomes a problem.

Of course, working with the Crows always carries risks, but so does everything else you do. Some risks carry huge potential long term benefits

Ferelden is poor and its need for lyrium is very limited. It cannot substitute for the Chantry now. Hence, the Dwarves need the Chantry for the moment and Ferelden is not going to replace it. Unless the Chantry as a whole starts to collapse and the other nations decide to join in on the trade.

Ferelden might be poor now. The scenario I am refering to is one to be explored in the future, maybe 20-30 years down the road. Enough time to have gotten post Blight problems sorted out. While some countries might still wish to cling rigidly to the orlesian Chantry (orlais, Anderfels, ect) others might be open to the idea of dimishing the power of the Chantry, for many reasons. i think only the most hard-core devotee of the Orlesian Chantry would not be tempted by the prospect of his government having direct control over its Circle and mages, instead of having to beg and plead with the Chantry to get a laughable handful, even when situations are dire. Plus, there is also the financial and political benefits of having rights to the colelction of Chantry tithes and assets, as well as reducing the overall power and influence Orlais has because of the Chantry.

[Addai]

 (husband)

The Crows and their are other groups like the Mage Consortium that could help.   They are however probably a fraction of the Chantry though.


Plus, there is also the financial and political benefits of having rights to the colelction of Chantry tithes and assets, as well as reducing the overall power and influence Orlais has because of the Chantry.

Yes was thinking tonight that his arguments why things weren't feasible were also highlighting the hegemony the Chantry holds over society and hence why a monarch might want to do what they can to break it.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:20 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

(husband)

Yeah I should have thought that one through better....  

Well using the Henry VIII the idea of the monarch as the head of the Church rather than the pope.    That idea had existed before in earlier times.   (My wife an amateur medievalist is more the expert on that than I).   Much of what Henry VIII was doing (if you can put aside the Protestants whispering in his ear) was trying to roll things back for his own advantage.    So that's what I'm talking about.

Oh, I knew what you were refering to, and I agree with it. Creating a "Chantry of Ferelden" would not be an unfeasible goal, nor would it require a drastic change in the core beliefs of many fereldens. Just like Protestantism wasn't a complete turn around for people who followed it. Catholics and Protests still are both Christian religions. They both share the core beliefs of the absolute divine authority of the Abrahamic God, they both still believe in the divinity, virgin birth, crucifixion, and ressurection of Jesus, as well as many other similar beliefs. it is not like they were changing their religion entirely.

In changing to a more "localized" Chantry is having people for the most part, change their organization and political beliefs in the place of the Chantry. In otherwords, no longer believing the divine in Val Royeaux to be the chosen mouthpiece of the Maker, ect. Since we don't know the extent of Chantry beliefs and practices, there could also be alot of ritual dogma that was created long after the Chant of Light had been written.

You aren't trying to challenge the position of the pope aka Divine, but limit the Divines reach.   Kind of like Eastern Orthodox did with later interpretations of the Supremecy of the Pope that came out of the Filioque controversy. They weren't trying to be like Protestants interpretting the Bible and doctrine for themselves but rather basing their views on an older view of "Holy Tradition" that was also held by Catholics for the 1st 1000 years.


So anyway that would be tack, if the game Lore and David Gaider would cooperate and let it be so.

Exactly. And, given the Orlesian occupation and the actions of the Chantry during that time, it would not be as difficult as sell as you might initially believe. One could proclaim the Chantry in orlais to be corrupted, being little more than the vanguard of Orlesian interests, and proclaim a desire to get back to the "true word" of the Chant. Including a different organizational set-up. Finding triggers to get people to break away from the old guard isn't that difficult using Chantry Lore alone, since, as we know, its pretty easy to create or interpret religous scripture to support almost any endeavor or regime. Hell, i think even Adolf Hitler managed to use Bible verse or scripture to sell the "rightness" of his plans to the population, and for the most part, few objected.

It wouldn't necessarily mean a smooth ride, but things worth working for seldom are. I do think though, given the right leadership, clever execution, competant allies, and good timing, a plan such as this would not only work, but open the doors of new opportunity to grow and prosper.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

 (husband)

The Crows and their are other groups like the Mage Consortium that could help.   They are however probably a fraction of the Chantry though.

Numbers aren't a problem for certain groups. yeah, there's the Mage's Collective as well. Plus many other factions. There are a number of apostates as well to consider. Even the Dalish might be useful here. They have mages, they manage to enchant things somehow. They also have ironbark and the knowledge of working with it, so even though they are poor, homeless wanderers, they do have something of value to offer.

I am anxious to see what light gets shed on the rest of Thedas in DA2, as it would help to know not only where other countries stand, but also, knowledge of other possible factions in Thedas.

[Addai]

(husband)

Yeah I had some second thoughts about the dangers of heresy when I started thinking about Leliana. She says some pretty controversial stuff in game and hardly gets called for it, so there's probably much more tolerance for that sort of thing vs. not towing the party line with medieval and Nicene Christianity.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:27 .

[Wereparrot]

I have often thought that there could be a reformation of the chantry system along these lines. I seem to remember something about the chantry in the spiel for DA2; maybe Hawke will able to instigate this.

[Wereparrot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Too risky. Taking control of the Lyrium trade is useless if there is no one you can trade it with

Edward III did a similar sort of thing with wool shortly before the Hundred Years' War. He witheld English wool from export for a year, then directed trade towards his allies and away from his enemies; thereby enriching his allies. Apply the correlation to Ferelden. Of course, this assumes Ferelden has allies, and is dependant on a rapid seizure of all lyrium in the country.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

(husband)

Yeah I had some second thoughts about the dangers of heresy when I started thinking about Leliana. She says some pretty controversial stuff in game and hardly gets called for it, so there's probably much more tolerance for that sort of thing vs. not towing the party line with medieval and Nicene Christianity.

Yeah. People forget that while Thedas is based generally on medieval Europe, it's not a direct imitation, and there's alot of room for maneuvering and change that one did not have in medieval Europe. When one considers the roots of Andrastism vs the roots of Christianity, as well as the doctrine of the two, I think a schism/reformation type event would not be as difficult as one thinks. In fact, given ferelden being Andraste's birthplace, as well as the rediscovery of the ashes, a break mgiht be relatively easy, in comparison with real world Christianity.

[blothulfur]

Whatever you tried best to have a strong, professional army and navy to back up your claims. My dwarven noble asked the boon of aid in the deep road crusade and I can't think of a better testing ground for the armies of ferelden than fighting alongside the iron hard dwarves.

The old speak quietly and carry a big stick.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why would anyone else than the Circle ever buy lyrium? It is lethal to all but the Tranquil in its unprocessed form, and even in its processed form only the Tranquil can mold it into runes and insert them into items. And the Tranquil are part of the Circles, which is governed by the Chantry, which Ferelden would have to exclude. So yeah, Ferelden would suddenly stand with a lot of lyrium they couldn't use for anything.

[Wereparrot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would anyone else than the Circle ever buy lyrium? It is lethal to all but the Tranquil in its unprocessed form, and even in its processed form only the Tranquil can mold it into runes and insert them into items. And the Tranquil are part of the Circles, which is governed by the Chantry, which Ferelden would have to exclude. So yeah, Ferelden would suddenly stand with a lot of lyrium they couldn't use for anything.

Except the Circle, and the Circles of any allies. As for the chantry controlling the Circle, no matter; all the chantries would be seized or disolved, and the Circle would be cut off from any foreign chantries' influence. There is also the black market. Maybe the dwarves have use for lyrium, ie as drugs.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 04 janvier 2011 - 04:14 .

[Addai]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would anyone else than the Circle ever buy lyrium? It is lethal to all but the Tranquil in its unprocessed form, and even in its processed form only the Tranquil can mold it into runes and insert them into items. And the Tranquil are part of the Circles, which is governed by the Chantry, which Ferelden would have to exclude. So yeah, Ferelden would suddenly stand with a lot of lyrium they couldn't use for anything.

??  Dwarven smiths and Circle mages also enchant items, as can prodigies like Sandal.  In Awakening even a non-mage PC can learn the skill.  Seems anyone with the training and some resistance can do it.  I assume the Circle makes it a Tranquil specialty because it's a way for them to be useful and they don't mind if a few die here or there due to overexposure.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2011 - 04:37 .

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why would anyone else than the Circle ever buy lyrium? It is lethal to all but the Tranquil in its unprocessed form, and even in its processed form only the Tranquil can mold it into runes and insert them into items. And the Tranquil are part of the Circles, which is governed by the Chantry, which Ferelden would have to exclude. So yeah, Ferelden would suddenly stand with a lot of lyrium they couldn't use for anything.

??  Dwarven smiths and Circle mages also enchant items, as can prodigies like Sandal.  In Awakening even a non-mage PC can learn the skill.  Seems anyone with the training and some resistance can do it.  I assume the Circle makes it a Tranquil specialty because it's a way for them to be useful and they don't mind if a few die here or there due to overexposure.

This is a good point. The dwarves themselves mainly use lyrium, and only sell a portion of it to the Andrastian Chantry. The dwarves obviously don't fear the Chantry, given that they permit an independent Circle of Magi to exist within their borders if Dagna is permitted to study at the Circle of Ferelden.

blothulfur wrote...

I'm thinking the orlesian chantry may be advocating a move to retake the frostbacks once news of the ashes discovery reaches them so that they can claim the relic as well as secure the lyrium supplies, but what reason do they use when declaring war on a good chantry loving nation that threw back a blight single handed and what do neighbouring nations think of this.

The potential miseuse of the ashes by the Andrastian Chantry is the reason why I never endorse it's discovery. If one follows the scholars view of the war between Orlais and the Dales, then it transpired because of territorial disputes, and it's likely the same type of incidents would transpire if they discovered the existance of the ashes within the territory of Ferelden.

The existance of the Disciples of Andraste as one of the few existing Cults of Andraste still around always seemed like a good possibility as a religion to supplant the Andrastian Chantry. It's a pro-mage religion that worships a powerful High Dragon. If the Disciples of Andraste are permitted to live and the ashes destroyed, then they end up gaining followers to their religion (possibly because they stop killing people who come to Haven since the ashes are destroyed and it was an "outsider" who helped them).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...


The existance of the Disciples of Andraste as one of the few existing Cults of Andraste still around always seemed like a good possibility as a religion to supplant the Andrastian Chantry. It's a pro-mage religion that worships a powerful High Dragon. If the Disciples of Andraste are permitted to live and the ashes destroyed, then they end up gaining followers to their religion (possibly because they stop killing people who come to Haven since the ashes are destroyed and it was an "outsider" who helped them).

I wouldn't say its a good possibility to totally supplant, just a renegade sect. Even amongst the more tolerant Andrastians, the idea of worshiping a high dragon would be similar to the idea of convincing a Christian to worship Pan or Cerrunos as ressurected Jesus, deities who look too much like "The Devil" (though the actual devil in popular culture is based on those deities, in terms of appearance, not temperment). One of the core beliefs of Andrastians was in the wickedness of Tevinter because they worshiped dragons, and that the Old Gods, who were dragons, corrupted men.

The cult certainly does pick up a following if you defile the ashes, but I do not believe such a religion would end up as the state sponsored one. If anything, most leaders would see it as a threat to stability and good order, and most average fereldens, even if the were willing to break from the orlesian Chantry, would not find dragon worship a feasable alternative.

That said, however, it does show that there is certainly plenty of room for doctrine change, and the relative isolation of Ferelden would be more condusive to some sort of home grown alternative to the accepted Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


The existance of the Disciples of Andraste as one of the few existing Cults of Andraste still around always seemed like a good possibility as a religion to supplant the Andrastian Chantry. It's a pro-mage religion that worships a powerful High Dragon. If the Disciples of Andraste are permitted to live and the ashes destroyed, then they end up gaining followers to their religion (possibly because they stop killing people who come to Haven since the ashes are destroyed and it was an "outsider" who helped them).

I wouldn't say its a good possibility to totally supplant, just a renegade sect. Even amongst the more tolerant Andrastians, the idea of worshiping a high dragon would be similar to the idea of convincing a Christian to worship Pan or Cerrunos as ressurected Jesus, deities who look too much like "The Devil" (though the actual devil in popular culture is based on those deities, in terms of appearance, not temperment). One of the core beliefs of Andrastians was in the wickedness of Tevinter because they worshiped dragons, and that the Old Gods, who were dragons, corrupted men.

The cult certainly does pick up a following if you defile the ashes, but I do not believe such a religion would end up as the state sponsored one. If anything, most leaders would see it as a threat to stability and good order, and most average fereldens, even if the were willing to break from the orlesian Chantry, would not find dragon worship a feasable alternative.

That said, however, it does show that there is certainly plenty of room for doctrine change, and the relative isolation of Ferelden would be more condusive to some sort of home grown alternative to the accepted Chantry.

I don't think it could totally supplant it any more than the Andrastian Chantry could root out all the other Cults of Andraste, but given the near destruction of Ferelden in the wake of the Blight, I can see why people were so easily converted to the Disciples of Andraste if they lost everything and suddenly were provided with a powerful alternative. True, Kolgrim and the other disciples worship a dragon, but given how even an elven Mage can be labelled the Hero of Ferelden, respected by the people of Amaranthine, viewed as a hero, and accepted as the new Arl of Amaranthine with no outcry from the Divine or the religious folks, I can see more than a few folks willing to see the dragon Andraste as a viable alternative, especially when the darkspawn have massacred countless people and ruined the land in their wake.

[Addai]

I don't think it could totally supplant it any more than the Andrastian
Chantry could root out all the other Cults of Andraste, but given the
near destruction of Ferelden in the wake of the Blight, I can see why
people were so easily converted to the Disciples of Andraste if they
lost everything and suddenly were provided with a powerful alternative.
True, Kolgrim and the other disciples worship a dragon, but given how
even an elven Mage can be labelled the Hero of Ferelden, respected by
the people of Amaranthine, viewed as a hero, and accepted as the new Arl
of Amaranthine with no outcry from the Divine or the religious folks, I
can see more than a few folks willing to see the dragon Andraste as a
viable alternative, especially when the darkspawn have massacred
countless people and ruined the land in their wake.

(husband)

I can't really see the Andrastian Dragon Cult getting that far.   It goes against centuries of embedded social norms and conditioning.   Every statute that you see in every town, chantry, and castle is a reminder of the traditional/ orthodox view of Andraste that goes against the grain of the crazy syncretstic cultists.    It seems to me that the Dragon Cults can only go mainstream the same way that Cthulu cults can go mainstream (When the Old Ones arise and began eating everybody).