155 réponses à ce sujet

[SusanStoHelit]

Zevran is the only romance option whom you know to be 'evil' from the very start. The others you might find things out about later, or they may be morally ambiguous, but Zev is plain bad. As I said, if he was repentant, softened, whatever, it could still work. But as it stands - not.



Now an 'evil' pc might find Alistair unappealing, but they would have no problems 'using' him for their own ends anyway, right? The bad guys get it all their way. ;-)

[Brass_Buckles]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

See, killing people because they attack me? No problem. Because they are murderers, rapists, thugs, traitors, and so on and so forth (if I'm playing a 'good guy')? No problem. Or even because it's necessary and expedient - though with distaste and regret.

But to boast of enjoying it? Having no remorse or feelings of guilt? If I'm to role play (and I do) then my 'good' character would be appalled and revolted by such an attitude. Neutral or evil characters, no problem. Being forced to choose the lesser of two evils, killing someone you didn't want to in order to save your own life or that of others - yes; deliberately choose an intimate relationship with a cold-blooded murderer (who doesn't 'soften' or put aside that attitude), knowing that is what they are - no. It doesn't work for me from a role playing perspective.

I do have one of my female characters romancing Zevran (as a completionist I've got to do it, just to see what happens and how it affects the story) but she'll be the only one. Never again. Not 'working'.

See, that's my problem with Zevran and why I say he is not, and never will be, as good a person as Alistair.  It's not really his fault; this is the way he was raised and how he has lived life.  It's the only life he knows.  But for most of my characters (and for me personally), his blase attitude about killing people, some of whom have not done anything to deserve it (ask him and he admits that he has killed innocents, perhaps even children) is a huge turn-off.  Being a strong person is not the same as being a good person--Zevran is a strong person, but Alistair is a good person who is not terribly strong.

Don't get me wrong, I like both characters.  There are things I love about Zevran (like the fact that he's so surprisingly loyal, which I mentioned before), even if there are plenty of things I hate about him.  There are things I hate about Alistair, too (tantrum!), even though I do tend to like him better.  I'm interested to see how Zevran's romance pans out.  I don't think it's really all that more realistic than Alistair's (Alistair wants to fall in love but fears being in love, while Zevran fears falling in love but enjoys actually being in love), but I'll give you the fact that it's more mature.  Remember, the PC is Alistair's first love, and it's a semi-forbidden love due to how close he was to taking his vows as a templar, not to mention the whole king thing.  On the Zevran side of things, he's apparently sworn to himself that he will not fall in love.  But he does.  I almost feel sorry for him in that regard, because you know falling in love scares him witless.

[Sabriana]

But you have to think 'different cultures'. Listening and reading about Antiva, assassins are not only tolerated, but revered. For Antivan culture, it's a normal thing. Kings, merchants, mages, all use the assassins, and as Zevran says, even the authorities don't bother them.

Almost like the Morag Tong (I think that was the name) in Morrowind. They were government sanctioned assassins too. I do agree that murder with any other name is still murder, and having innocents suffer is awful, but as far as Zevran knows, that's the normal way of life.

Modifié par Sabriana, 22 décembre 2009 - 12:18 .

[Brass_Buckles]

Sabriana wrote...

But you have to think 'different cultures'. Listening and reading about Antiva, assassins are not only tolerated, but revered. For Antivan culture, it's a normal thing. Kings, merchants, mages, all use the assassins, and as Zevran says, even the authorities don't bother them.

Almost like the Morag Tong (I think that was the name) in Morrowind. They were government sanctioned assassins too. I do agree that murder with any other name is still murder, and having innocents suffer is awful, but as far as Zevran knows, that's the normal way of life.

I did say that it's how he was brought up and that it's all he knows.  It's not that I don't understand his background, but it's still horrible to be that brusque in regard to murder.  The ending of a life is no small matter.

[ejoslin]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

But you have to think 'different cultures'. Listening and reading about Antiva, assassins are not only tolerated, but revered. For Antivan culture, it's a normal thing. Kings, merchants, mages, all use the assassins, and as Zevran says, even the authorities don't bother them.

Almost like the Morag Tong (I think that was the name) in Morrowind. They were government sanctioned assassins too. I do agree that murder with any other name is still murder, and having innocents suffer is awful, but as far as Zevran knows, that's the normal way of life.

I did say that it's how he was brought up and that it's all he knows.  It's not that I don't understand his background, but it's still horrible to be that brusque in regard to murder.  The ending of a life is no small matter.

Yet everyone, including the PC, seems to think it's not that huge of a deal that Isolde protecting an abomination sacrificed many many people that she was supposed to protect.  And that the "moral" choice is to continue to endanger these defenseless people by taking a few days to get support of the mages.  Life just is not that valuable in dragon age unless it's a noble life.  Yes, a nice funeral was held, but everyone thought it best if no one suffered any consequences.  Then we can talk about the lives of mages and how valuable they are (unless they happen to be Connor).  A demon is put in them and if they can't resist, they're killed.  

Given the context of how life and killing is viewed in this world, an assassin is not necessarily bad, nor one who views the world differently than anyone else.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 décembre 2009 - 01:30 .

[Brass_Buckles]

ejoslin wrote...

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

But you have to think 'different cultures'. Listening and reading about Antiva, assassins are not only tolerated, but revered. For Antivan culture, it's a normal thing. Kings, merchants, mages, all use the assassins, and as Zevran says, even the authorities don't bother them.

Almost like the Morag Tong (I think that was the name) in Morrowind. They were government sanctioned assassins too. I do agree that murder with any other name is still murder, and having innocents suffer is awful, but as far as Zevran knows, that's the normal way of life.

I did say that it's how he was brought up and that it's all he knows.  It's not that I don't understand his background, but it's still horrible to be that brusque in regard to murder.  The ending of a life is no small matter.

Yet everyone, including the PC, seems to think it's not that huge of a deal that Isolde protecting an abomination sacrificed many many people that she was supposed to protect.  And that the "moral" choice is to continue to endanger these defenseless people by taking a few days to get support of the mages.  Life just is not that valuable in dragon age unless it's a noble life.  Yes, a nice funeral was held, but everyone thought it best if no one suffered any consequences.  Then we can talk about the lives of mages and how valuable they are (unless they happen to be Connor).  A demon is put in them and if they can't resist, they're killed.  

Given the context of how life and killing is viewed in this world, an assassin is not necessarily bad, nor one who views the world differently than anyone else.

Considering the responses your PC can make, and how Alistair reacts if you immediately accept Zevran into your group (without trying to send him after Loghain first), I'd tend to say that assassins are indeed frowned upon, as is killing in general.  It's one thing to battle foes openly as a warrior or mage--but rogues are by nature not terribly honorable, and neither is death-by-rogue.  Even if Fereldens don't value life that much (which I would be inclined to dispute), they do very clearly value honor.

[ejoslin]

Fereldens value the lives of nobles. The whole Isolde/Conner thing rubbed me the wrong way in so many ways, especially what is considered the moral solution. But look at how they treat the elves. Look at how they treat the mages. Only some lives are valuable. And Alistair does seem to value my rogue-pc! You're right, though, I do get -3 for taking the assassin in my party that just tried to assassinate my PC. I think it has more to do with the fact that he was hired to assassinate us rather than he's an assassin. He has no such problems with Leliana even after she comes clean about being a bard.  And he definitely has no problem with Isabela!

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 décembre 2009 - 04:47 .

[Brass_Buckles]

ejoslin wrote...

Fereldens value the lives of nobles. The whole Isolde/Conner thing rubbed me the wrong way in so many ways, especially what is considered the moral solution. But look at how they treat the elves. Look at how they treat the mages. Only some lives are valuable. And Alistair does seem to value my rogue-pc! You're right, though, I do get -3 for taking the assassin in my party that just tried to assassinate my PC. I think it has more to do with the fact that he was hired to assassinate us rather than he's an assassin. He has no such problems with Leliana even after she comes clean about being a bard.  And he definitely has no problem with Isabela!

I think I got more than a -3 from Alistair on that one.  However, if you want to eliminate that negative reaction, initially refuse Zevran's offer.  Then you can try to send him after Loghain, talk a little more, and get another chance to either kill him or have him join your party.  It's like with Morrigan's disapproval if you try to simply let Jowan go: you need to take another course in that dialogue before reaching a decision.  Alistair is apparently satisfied that at least you tried, and will no longer lose approval with you for recruiting Zevran.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 22 décembre 2009 - 04:50 .

[ejoslin]

Ooooh, I did not know that. Thanks!

[Sabriana]

Well, considering that I really don't care about losing approval with Alistair, that's not something I take into consideration. But I completely agree with ejoslin. Only some lives are valuable. In my opinion, Isolde's actions destroyed many lives, wrecked many families, and brought much misery. She has, again in my opinion, just as much blood on her hands as does any assassin. Yet, Alistair blows up at the PC should she decide to let Isolde atone by sacrificing herself.



Listening to Wynne, it also becomes clear that the mages face grave danger from the world around them. She tells my PC that for every mage in the tower another lies dead, hunted down by righteous citizens who blame the mage for everything from natural disasters, to crop failures, to still-births. And that's not even counting the mages that are/where hunted by the chantry's dogs, the templars. Aneirin was hunted, run through, and left for dead - by the templars. The dalish found the 14 year old elf and nursed him back to health.



So yes, Zevran's apparent callousness about assassinations is a turn-off, and my PC always loses approval with him because she strongly disagrees. However, things usually change, and later on he more than makes up for all the lives he's taken by being part of saving Ferelden.



It's not only how he's been brought up, it's the whole culture of Antiva that has no problem with assassins. They are an essential part of the culture, revered, feared, and government sanctioned.

[Time4Tiddy]

Sabriana wrote...

Well, considering that I really don't care about losing approval with Alistair, that's not something I take into consideration. But I completely agree with ejoslin. Only some lives are valuable. In my opinion, Isolde's actions destroyed many lives, wrecked many families, and brought much misery. She has, again in my opinion, just as much blood on her hands as does any assassin. Yet, Alistair blows up at the PC should she decide to let Isolde atone by sacrificing herself.

Not to mention Isolde has the most annoying voice and absolute worst teeth of anyone in the game.    My next playthrough I'm planning to kill her to save Connor, then take the demon's deal so Connor will die anyway, and finally foul the ashes so Eamon dies, too.  I'm so sick of that whole family.  Eamon lecturing me about why Anora shouldn't be the queen - after Alistair told me he didn't want it - really rubbed me the wrong way my first playthrough.  She's not good enough because she's not noble-born, bleh.

On topic, though, I've found Zevran is easier to use in-conversation Persuade options when you make choices he disagrees with, where Alistair rarely has one, he just gets angry and you lose approval.  I also like taking Zev into the Mage's Tower so you can see his Fade nightmare and then taking him to Adraste's tomb to see his guardian question.  These things really flesh him out, and you can see that he isn't this blase killer who revels in the death of innocents.

[Sabriana]

That's true enough, Time4Tiddy. Zevran is inclined to listen to reason, such as telling him why the whole 'force dwarfs to become golems' thing is a bad idea.



Zevran does develop nicely over the course of the game, revealing depth that Alistair just doesn't seem to possess. After having her heart broken by Alistair in my first play-through, it was quite touching that Zevran was there to pick up the pieces. Of the two, Zevran is the more loyal one, the more steadfast one. Who knew?

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

That's true enough, Time4Tiddy. Zevran is inclined to listen to reason, such as telling him why the whole 'force dwarfs to become golems' thing is a bad idea.

Zevran does develop nicely over the course of the game, revealing depth that Alistair just doesn't seem to possess. After having her heart broken by Alistair in my first play-through, it was quite touching that Zevran was there to pick up the pieces. Of the two, Zevran is the more loyal one, the more steadfast one. Who knew?

With as traumatized as Alistair is by his upbringing (which was lonely and sad for sure), can you imagine had he had Zevran's?  Also, what I find interesting, is how Zevran sees how much anguish the PC went through in their life as well and will comment on it (and does not like it if you bother denying it) while Ali needs reminding.  Zevran is just the stronger character.  And if the PC dies, he ends up a powerful leader in his own right (though still faithful to the end).

My PC always does point out to Ali that he had it good compared to most orphans.  Zevran will tell you how good he had it compared to the orphans whom the crows didn't buy.  That may be the best contrast of their personalities there.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 décembre 2009 - 01:28 .

[Imryll]

ejoslin wrote...
Also, what I find interesting, is how Zevran sees how much anguish the PC went through in their life as well and will comment on it (and does not like it if you bother denying it) while Ali needs reminding. 

Heh. My human noble meant to romance Alistair had the do you want to talk about Duncan conversation with him last night, and even with the Cousland origin he asks you if you've ever lost anyone close to you. Who would have thought that there was any social situation in which "My entire family was recently murdered" would be an appropriate reply? Ailidh has only just arrived in Lothering, and already I'm having thoughts of the fun two rogues could have together ...   

Modifié par Imryll, 22 décembre 2009 - 03:11 .

[ejoslin]

Evainelithe wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Zevran is the only romance option whom you know to be 'evil' from the very start. The others you might find things out about later, or they may be morally ambiguous, but Zev is plain bad. As I said, if he was repentant, softened, whatever, it could still work. But as it stands - not.

Now an 'evil' pc might find Alistair unappealing, but they would have no problems 'using' him for their own ends anyway, right? The bad guys get it all their way. ;-)

Using someone isn't romancing them however. It's merely good tactics.

If zevran were truly so bad he'd either let you romance alistair in order to use him for both your and zevran's personal gain or demand you'd break up with alistair as zevran doesn't want to share you in any way. Instead he demands you do not continue romancing both as it would "only hurt alistair deeply". Why does he care if he's so bad?

I have a weird theory about this.  Zevran does not want to share you, but he doesn't want to admit it's about him.  If he really was concerned about Alistair's or Leliana's feelings, you wouldn't take such a huge approval hit if you don't choose him.

[Sialater]

Alistair WILL NOT kiss you in front of Zevran. And of course he's deflecting his feelings. The phrase really means, "You'll only hurt ME deeply."



Somehow, the Templar and the Assassin become buddies. Probably over their mutual dislike of Morrigan.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

Alistair WILL NOT kiss you in front of Zevran. And of course he's deflecting his feelings. The phrase really means, "You'll only hurt ME deeply."

Somehow, the Templar and the Assassin become buddies. Probably over their mutual dislike of Morrigan.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who takes it that way.  Zevran, as soon as he hits "interested" makes sure that there is some kind of future with the two of you (do NOT suggest he'd be a good servant).  He doesn't fight it, but makes sure that there's a chance before letting himself care.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 décembre 2009 - 04:09 .

[MorningBird]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

See, killing people because they attack me? No problem. Because they are murderers, rapists, thugs, traitors, and so on and so forth (if I'm playing a 'good guy')? No problem. Or even because it's necessary and expedient - though with distaste and regret.

But to boast of enjoying it? Having no remorse or feelings of guilt? If I'm to role play (and I do) then my 'good' character would be appalled and revolted by such an attitude. Neutral or evil characters, no problem. Being forced to choose the lesser of two evils, killing someone you didn't want to in order to save your own life or that of others - yes; deliberately choose an intimate relationship with a cold-blooded murderer (who doesn't 'soften' or put aside that attitude), knowing that is what they are - no. It doesn't work for me from a role playing perspective.

I do have one of my female characters romancing Zevran (as a completionist I've got to do it, just to see what happens and how it affects the story) but she'll be the only one. Never again. Not 'working'.

See, that's my problem with Zevran and why I say he is not, and never will be, as good a person as Alistair.  It's not really his fault; this is the way he was raised and how he has lived life.  It's the only life he knows.  But for most of my characters (and for me personally), his blase attitude about killing people, some of whom have not done anything to deserve it (ask him and he admits that he has killed innocents, perhaps even children) is a huge turn-off.  Being a strong person is not the same as being a good person--Zevran is a strong person, but Alistair is a good person who is not terribly strong.

Don't get me wrong, I like both characters.  There are things I love about Zevran (like the fact that he's so surprisingly loyal, which I mentioned before), even if there are plenty of things I hate about him.  There are things I hate about Alistair, too (tantrum!), even though I do tend to like him better.  I'm interested to see how Zevran's romance pans out.  I don't think it's really all that more realistic than Alistair's (Alistair wants to fall in love but fears being in love, while Zevran fears falling in love but enjoys actually being in love), but I'll give you the fact that it's more mature.  Remember, the PC is Alistair's first love, and it's a semi-forbidden love due to how close he was to taking his vows as a templar, not to mention the whole king thing.  On the Zevran side of things, he's apparently sworn to himself that he will not fall in love.  But he does.  I almost feel sorry for him in that regard, because you know falling in love scares him witless.

lol, for my play-through, this standpoint would have been totally hypocritical.

I played a city elf who was completely devoted to their family.  Thus, when my PC found Shianni--their childhood friend and cousin--in tears on the floor of Vaughan's room, you better believe they killed him without so much as a second thought, and enjoyed it to boot.  There were no regrets, not even when the guards showed up to haul my elf away in the Alienage, just sheer satisfaction because Vaughan touched goods he had no business handling, and paid the price.

I didn't play an 'evil' character, but this origin definitely dictated how I judged a lot of Zevran's dialog later on in the game.  When Zevran talked about the joy of the kill--of seeing someone's life literally slip away--my elf's mind immediately went to that final moment when Vaughan's carcass hit the floor, and they had to agree full heartedly that there was pleasure to be had in depriving someone of their life.  Heck, when Wynne inquired into my PC's past at camp, I said that I'd gladly kill Vaughan a second time.  I boasted.  Who am I to not allow Zevran the same privilege?

My elf also acknowledged the truth in his words when he stated that some people just need to be killed.  Innocents get mixed up in the events, but I don't remember Zevran relishing in those kills.  If anything, he tried to put them aside; to not think too hard on them because such emotions do not a good assassin make (or so he was taught).  My elf also tried to forget all of the guards they slaughtered on their search for Shianni as well.  The PC was in a blind rage, and all who got in their path were... unfortunate deaths that were completely unavoidable at the time.

Alistair is a good choice if you want the knight in shining armor.  Personally, he just didn't work for me from a role-playing perspective (I still think Alistair is an amazing character).  When he's not being perfect, he's trying to be perfect.  My character has yet to disappoint him on a strictly 'friends' basis, but I could never see them working out as a couple because the worlds they hail from are too different.

Alistair is optimistic.  My elf is fairly jaded, but tries to act 'in the right'.

Zevran is much the same, though better humored than my city elf, and a good judge of character, which I think my PC needed more than the blinding romance Alistair offers.  Proof of this was probably when Zevran recited that terrible poem out of the blue when we were questing for the Urn of Sacred Ashes.  My PC asked why Zevran was spouting all that drivel, and was pleasantly surprised to discover that Zevran was simply trying to cheer them up, and for no other reason than that they looked sad.  That hit me.

And I think that's where the real line is drawn between the two characters.  Alistair is completely dependant on you.  Emotionally, he doesn't help you, because he already thinks you're stable, or pushes you to be.  Zevran has a more realistic view of the world, and while a follower and lover, doesn't expect you to be perfect or go on without support or appreciation... or a little good humor.

To reiterate:  I don't really think one is better than the other, it just depends on how you role-play.  I like all four of the love interests, but I think my characters are always going to lean more towards Lelianna and Zevran.  Zevran is loyal and supportive when you earn that kinship with him.  Lelianna I had a soft spot for straight from the beginning, but I downright fell in love with her after she stopped running from her past.

Anyway, my two cents.  I'm pretty sure that all stopped making sense somewhere.

[shownofear]

...well,morningbird just said already too much abt the two males personages,making me smile..why?mm,because she took too seriously the matter..my opinion is that Bioware's writers became a bit too lazy to write a good romance,with real life moral problems,twisted tasty turnings of feelings and all..u dont even see,its simply comfortable and easy come...umm,boring,really sorry for telling this,i have respect and apreciation for game developers love ur work but i want MORE..ahem

[MorningBird]

shownofear wrote...

...well,morningbird just said already too much abt the two males personages,making me smile..why?mm,because she took too seriously the matter..my opinion is that Bioware's writers became a bit too lazy to write a good romance,with real life moral problems,twisted tasty turnings of feelings and all..u dont even see,its simply comfortable and easy come...umm,boring,really sorry for telling this,i have respect and apreciation for game developers love ur work but i want MORE..ahem

So, discussing something... on a forum... meant for discussion... is taking things too seriously now?  Um, okay, I'll roll with that.

But honestly, you're probably right.  I find it incredibly hard NOT to become immersed in games that play like a 'choose your own adventure' novel.  After all, that's where a good portion of the fun is derived.
 
What's the point in getting six brilliant origin stories if you don't allow yourself to grow attached to any of the characters in them?  What's the point in getting to create your own unique character if you refuse to become emotionally invested in them?  If you don't take advantage of the freedoms the devs give you to weave your own tale?

If I wanted to be spoon fed a premade story that was stiff as bricks, I'd buy God of War.  I like that Dragon Age gives me room to draw my own conclusions about the various companion characters, as well as my own.  Its a freedom you don't see in very many games these days.  Props to BioWare.

[Chigusa]

Ok,this might be an obvious question,but I'm planning my 2nd playthrough and I'd like to know,



My newly-created mage is a BAD person,she's all "yeeeeh I'm free and out of that tower" and she's in fact going to have fun.

First,she'll romance Alistair as she finds it funny to make him lose his "innocence"(and because I never romanced him and I wanna try).

Then,I was thinking, she'll set her eyes on Zevran (and alas,she'll find out he's not the bad boy,after all and she'll learn that she doesn't have to be evil to have fun!) after she'll make Alistair king and dumps her(he'll remain in love,right?).

I'd like to get the massage offer from Zevran,then,but 1)you need to give him hint that you're interested,right? SO you technichally have to be in a relationship with him and not having asked him to your tent before 2)can you start the relationship with Zevran so late in the game, after the landsmeet and before taliesen? 3)won't alistair make my pc choose,if i'm technichally in a relationship (even if not at 70+)?

[ejoslin]

Chigusa wrote...

Ok,this might be an obvious question,but I'm planning my 2nd playthrough and I'd like to know,

My newly-created mage is a BAD person,she's all "yeeeeh I'm free and out of that tower" and she's in fact going to have fun.
First,she'll romance Alistair as she finds it funny to make him lose his "innocence"(and because I never romanced him and I wanna try).
Then,I was thinking, she'll set her eyes on Zevran (and alas,she'll find out he's not the bad boy,after all and she'll learn that she doesn't have to be evil to have fun!) after she'll make Alistair king and dumps her(he'll remain in love,right?).
I'd like to get the massage offer from Zevran,then,but 1)you need to give him hint that you're interested,right? SO you technichally have to be in a relationship with him and not having asked him to your tent before 2)can you start the relationship with Zevran so late in the game, after the landsmeet and before taliesen? 3)won't alistair make my pc choose,if i'm technichally in a relationship (even if not at 70+)?

You have to be more than giving him a hint -- he propositions the warden at 71+ adore.  And yes, you can start the relationship late in the game, but the Taliesen encounter happens before the landsmeet (it happens just after the landsmeet is called, the first time you travel around the denerim map).

If Zevran propositions the warden while you're involved with Alistair, the next dialog with either (assuming Alistair is at adore or in love) will be the jealousy talk.

The jealousy talk in the vanilla game happens when both are at 71+ adore (or love).  Only Leliana has different standards when it comes to this.

[Chigusa]

Mmm right..the Taliesen encounter happens after the Landsmeet.

So the PC must "start the relationship" with Zevran (which means show him she's interested)before the calling of the Landsmeet. So then he will offer the massage AFTER the Landsmeet,right?

But is that a problem, if she never went to tent-time with Zevran?

Will he offer the massage as well? But most importantly, will the relationship proceed to love anyway?



Sorry for the questions,I'd like to clear these points. I don't like "metagaming" but it's like I've written the story of this new PC instead of playing it on PS3..I don't know if you get what I mean