238 réponses à ce sujet

[Rapamaha]

ah, this thread again

[InvincibleHero]

ReiSilver wrote...

yeah I never picked the option to punch the reporter no matter what gender Shep I'm playing.. it's juvenile and the running joke of this woman getting assaulted is honestly a bit off-putting. I always just beat her down with words both as paragon and renegade, it's much more satisfying to expose her arguments as false then to look like her mere words were enough to make Shep loose his/her cool and punch her.
And I find the 'she deserved it' sentiment highly worrying. She does not deserve to be physically assaulted just because she may hurt your precious feelings or say things you don't like or for being untruthful and manipulative.

I agree. There is also the fact that punching her does dishonor to the Alliance and hence the soldiers you are purporting to be defending while slugging her. It also calls into question both the military/ counterespionage training and perhaps lack of psychological testing, and perhaps a touch of lack of mental faculties and common sense.

People seem too quick to resort to physical violence for word no matter how unkind or even untrue. The consequences for real life reenactment of that would be severe. In ME2 there is no consequence except gaing the same amount of renegade points as doing the renegade speech option.

[InvincibleHero]

Eddo36 wrote...

If MaleShep can't hit her because she's female, then females don't belong on the front lines of war. Simple.

Except Miss al-Jilani is not a soldier and probably has no training in any type of hand to hand let alone be a genetically modified and trained killer.  There is also the fact it isn't even a straight up fight but a sucker punch. It is very dishonorable to say the least.

[Badpie]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

If MaleShep can't hit her because she's female, then females don't belong on the front lines of war. Simple.

Except Miss al-Jilani is not a soldier and probably has no training in any type of hand to hand let alone be a genetically modified and trained killer.  There is also the fact it isn't even a straight up fight but a sucker punch. It is very dishonorable to say the least.

This.  Her being a woman doesn't even enter into it.  Don't get me wrong, I find the Khalisa punch kind of amusing, but I also wonder how anyone could take their Shepard seriously after doing it.   Militarized male or female Shepard is gonna clock this unarmed, untrained, waif of a woman just because she's insulting and a slanderer?  Shepard should save the violence for the people who deserve it...you know...the ones who are shooting at him/her.

Modifié par Badpie, 05 janvier 2011 - 05:01 .

[cachx]

Oh man, you're even messing with the punch-the-reporter joke?
Is nothing sacred anymore? You're all ruining everything !

*runs away crying.

[Tigerking]

marshalleck wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Women deserve to be punched as much as men do.

Which is they don't 'deserve' to be punched. At all. No one deserves to be assaulted unless they are physically attacking you or someone else. I don't care if you think 'any servicemen would do the same.' you don't have the right to sucker punch someone just because they say mean spirited, hurtful or untrue things.
Punching Al'jiani should never have become a running gag and the attitude you see perpetuated here in this thread is the reason why, fostering the attitude of 'well she deserved it, didn't she?'. I'm sure bioware didn't intend to foster that kind of attitude but there it is.

It's the attitude of grade school bullies picking on kids they feel threatened by, the ones that are obviously more intelligent and likely to be successful in the future. "Oh yeah, think you're smarter than me? How about I knock your teeth out! How smart are you now, fa**ot?" 

A very American attitude, I must say. 

Ah, great. This never gets old. Because Americans invented anti-intellectualism and it only exists here. Surely no European kid has ever punched someone they feel intellectually threatened by, right?? Unthinkable!

We're not all idiotic violent bullies here, and I'm sorry you have such a distorted image of us.

On the subject of the OP, I agree with the point that the punching is kinda over the top, but it does end up ultimately playing into her hands, so it isn't entirely without consequences. The best way Shepard can handle the situation is Charm/Intimidate out, as it has a lot better effect than letting your fists do the talking (like a certain Captain we know). Gender doesn't really enter into it for me, if someone DESERVES to be punched, maybe it's an option, but with Al-Jilani, it's just a bit too...unhinged.

Modifié par Tigerking, 05 janvier 2011 - 05:26 .

[InvincibleHero]

Count Viceroy wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...


You're not old-fashioned; you're open-minded.

It makes sense for FemShep to hit her, but ManShep? No, thank you. That's too much.
 

Open minded? LoL

He's hypocritical to the max, and so are you. Equality when it pleases and only then.

If we're holding up and arguing the fictional universe of Mass effect to our own with its values and standards, then female shepards wouldn't even exsist, amongst other things.

I don't get where it is hypocritical at all. Your stance is any violence is equal. So you would be for punching children, babies, elderly, or handicapped people  or you would be a hypocrite. I am stating a truth that certain types of violence are more unacceptable for very good reasons. So if you think any of those are not in the same boat, then it is because they are weaker more helpless, or some other reason. That makes the not Ok for man to hit woman equally valid. Simple reasoning.

It is not advancement, but regression to say men can hit women. It was like that from the stone age to recently. Well it seems we still have work to go on that score.

it doesn't even work as an equality issue. Do you think women are demanding the right to be hit by men? It's a non-starter. It simply means the right of women to have any typoe of job as long as they can perform the duties. It pertains to discrimination not physical violence.

It doesn't even work on a moral equivalence basis. You could say stealing a $1000 is the same crime regardless of circumstance as you say with violence. Stealing $1000 froma millionaire would be little hardship for him, but if you stole the $1000 an elderly man needed for medicine for his dying wife then you'd see circumstances matter akin to sex in physical violence. Men almost always have the advantage and not just a slight one.
 
No there are female soldiers. They might not be quite as adept as males on average (although in games they are). There is also the whole genetic enhancement and biotic thing in the ME universe.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 05 janvier 2011 - 05:46 .

[InvincibleHero]

Eddo36 wrote...

No, the average man is stronger, faster, tougher, and more techinally proficient than the average woman. We can't hit them. It's not right. At least I think that's what the OP's point is.

I did say I though self-defense it is fair though I would probably be more restrained in that than most in deciding whether to strike back. This case is definitely not even remotely self-defense, but fueled by unthinking rage.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:00 .

[InvincibleHero]

Aurica wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...

yeah I never picked the option to punch the reporter no matter what gender Shep I'm playing.. it's juvenile and the running joke of this woman getting assaulted is honestly a bit off-putting. I always just beat her down with words both as paragon and renegade, it's much more satisfying to expose her arguments as false then to look like her mere words were enough to make Shep loose his/her cool and punch her.
And I find the 'she deserved it' sentiment highly worrying. She does not deserve to be physically assaulted just because she may hurt your precious feelings or say things you don't like or for being untruthful and manipulative.

Regardless.  I'm glad we are still given the option to punch her.  At least very least it gives us a chance to roleplay our shepard the way we want and not pigeonhole everyone into making the same approach. 

Except we never know what the interrupts will do. I did not honestly expect that would occur. It was a little shocking.

I kind of agree on having more choices, but there are such things as having too much leeway.

[Nightwriter]

Asses and idiots come in all genders, races, nationalities and cultures.

I don't see a man hitting a woman, I see an ass hitting an idiot. When femShep hits Al-Jilani, I see an ass hitting an idiot. If Al-Jilani were a man, I'd still see an ass hitting an idiot.

We're not supposed to care about any violence that goes on between asses and idiots. Have Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner taught you nothing.

[Eddo36]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

If MaleShep can't hit her because she's female, then females don't belong on the front lines of war. Simple.

Except Miss al-Jilani is not a soldier and probably has no training in any type of hand to hand let alone be a genetically modified and trained killer.  There is also the fact it isn't even a straight up fight but a sucker punch. It is very dishonorable to say the least.

Ah, I thought your main point that hitting her was wrong was only because she was a woman. So why did you make this topic on Al-Jihani as opposed to Conrad Verner, where you can not only punch him but shoot him as well?

[Jigen 78]

I've never punched her.



But I do enjoy watching her get walloped by the Krogan and kicked in the shin by the Volus on the Shadow Broker surveillance vids. Over and over and over again.



Paragons can have fun, too.

[Sandbox47]

I don't like her much, but hitting her was really unnecesary. At first I thought that I would simply talk her down or something. Didn't work like I planned...

[Aurica]

InvincibleHero wrote...
Except we never know what the interrupts will do. I did not honestly expect that would occur. It was a little shocking.

I kind of agree on having more choices, but there are such things as having too much leeway.

What Shepard done to her is rather mild compared to what shepard could do to Conrad.  Shepard could knee him or even shoot him.

And remember that what Conrad was doing may have been pushing it a bit.  But overall he means well and is
kind of hero-worshipping Shepard.   His motives are completely different from Ms Al Jilani who seems to be trying her best at dishonoring those Alliance soldiers who died during the Battle of the Citadel. 

Personally, I don't feel like too much leeway has been given.  It is fine as it is, as it allows us more freedom to depict our Shepards the way we want.   Take the high ground or take the low ground entirely up to you.  To be honest, according to the events of the game.   If Shepard was not around during the Battle of Citadel, there might not even be a citadel or even a galaxy left.  She might not even exist anymore had it not been Shepard & the alliance.

So what Ms Al Jilani is attempting to do is extremely disrespectful.  So put yourself in the position of Shepard who risk life and limb of not just himself but the men & women of the fifth fleet.  Would you not be insulted and put Ms Al Jilani in place? 

I'm certain there are better ways to handle this but I can understand how others would react.  And quite frankly, she did ask for it.

Modifié par Aurica, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:36 .

[Arcadionn]

Aurica wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
Except we never know what the interrupts will do. I did not honestly expect that would occur. It was a little shocking.

I kind of agree on having more choices, but there are such things as having too much leeway.

What Shepard done to her is rather mild compared to what shepard could do to Conrad.  Shepard could knee him or even shoot him.

And remember that what Conrad was doing may have been pushing it a bit.  But overall he means well and is
kind of hero-worshipping Shepard.   His motives are completely different from Ms Al Jilani who seems to be trying her best at dishonoring those Alliance soldiers who died during the Battle of the Citadel. 

Personally, I don't feel like too much leeway has been given.  It is fine as it is, as it allows us more freedom to depict our Shepards the way we want.   Take the high ground or take the low ground entirely up to you.  To be honest, according to the events of the game.   If Shepard was not around during the Battle of Citadel, there might not even be a citadel or even a galaxy left.  She might not even exist anymore had it not been Shepard & the alliance.

So what Ms Al Jilani is attempting to do is extremely disrespectful.  So put yourself in the position of Shepard who risk life and limb of not just himself but the men & women of the fifth fleet.  Would you not be insulted and put Ms Al Jilani in place? 

I'm certain there are better ways to handle this but I can understand how others would react.  And quite frankly, she did ask for it.

I strongly agree with your post.

On the topic of gender equality... so many people have double standards... Am I a promoter of man of woman violence; obviously not. My point being that if it is ok for women to hit men, and wrong for men to hit women given the same circumstances... we have double standards and not equality...

Not hitting anyone should go without saying; but there are people whom really have it coming on both sides of the gender fence.

I did not see posts about how hitting her could make children think its funny to hit women; and I am happy because blaming video games and music for poor parenting and poor teacing of values is always frustrating to me.

[FlintlockJazz]

Let me explain where I am coming from: If given the option, my Paragon Shep would lure her down a dark alley, then put a bullet in the back of her head execution style. She deserves it, she has indirectly murdered thousands of poor orphans, violated the graves of heroes, and caused global warming on Noveria.

[Chuvvy]

I think "gratuitous" is a strong adjective. Unnecessary is better, they mean the same thing but still gratuitous sounds worse.

[yummysoap]

In the sense that it's a running gag and that's it's one of the most hilarious things ever I accept it, but I can imagine it being totally jarring to someone who never played or took that option in ME1. It does seem pretty bold to have made it a renegade interrupt, because a lot of people could have taken it on the whim that she was just in for a stern talking to (Mordin has a renegade interrupt in the game that just has Shepard harshly cutting him off and not at all clocking him in the face). It would have made more sense to me to have made [Hit her] a dialogue option; that way players know exactly what they're doing. Most of the time the ambiguity of the interrupts are worth trying or it's made pretty clear with some sly camera hints what's going to happen, but in this case I can totally see why people would find it unnecesary.

[Pyroknightier]

A likely sceneario would be Shepard having a bad hair day. He was dead for 2 years, missed his old alliance crew, his old team, having forced to work with Ceberus, the Council telling Shepard to "kiss my arse"

What would Shepard do other than to snap out and beat the living hells out of her soul when all she does was to screw his mind all over again?

Modifié par Pyroknightier, 05 janvier 2011 - 05:57 .

[InvincibleHero]

Eddo36 wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Women deserve to be punched as much as men do.

Which is they don't 'deserve' to be punched. At all. No one deserves to be assaulted unless they are physically attacking you or someone else. I don't care if you think 'any servicemen would do the same.' you don't have the right to sucker punch someone just because they say mean spirited, hurtful or untrue things.
Punching Al'jiani should never have become a running gag and the attitude you see perpetuated here in this thread is the reason why, fostering the attitude of 'well she deserved it, didn't she?'. I'm sure bioware didn't intend to foster that kind of attitude but there it is.

I think this the OP intended this topic to be that it was wrong to punch her because she's a woman, that's it. Otherwise it would be about why it's wrong to punch/shoot Conrad Verner and the 1000 other renegade choices in the games.

Really it was mainly man hitting women for considering it gratuitous, but also all the other situational variables too.

I can understand shooting Verner in the foot (which apparently didn't draw blood and only stung because of the armor since none is depicted), because he is doing it to save his life by convincing him of the stupidity of his trying to be Shepard. He would likely end up dead. Extreme action that actually has a paragon motivation.

Some of the paragon choices seem renegade and vice versa. It seems too much of a mixed bag sometimes.

[InvincibleHero]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

For those claiming she could sue, there would be punishment and etc. No, no there would not. Shepard is a Spectre, whom is above the law. She could do nothing more than attempt to further rub your name in the mud. There are numerous instances where you can be heavily more violent and no repercussions are had.

- Threaten Conrad with a gun
- Actually shoot him
- Shoot and kill your former gang leader (if you have a Ruthless background). A Turian is impressed by this.
- Force a Batarian to drink poison

And this is devoid of all the endless firefights you have at the Citadel. Shepard is virtually untouchable. In any event, it is a game. If the option bothers you to such a degree, then by all means. Choose to walk the high ground. I am partially surprised by the display of knightly honor in this thread. I can only conclude none of you have played GTA or games with similar content. Punching a woman? You can go on a city wide massacre. I would certainly hope that is perceived as worse than punching a woman. Hell play pure evil in Jade Empire. The torment and horror you can subject civilians to is nigh astonishing. Even pure Renegade is pretty violent.

In regards to real life. Equality is what it is. No individual has the right to harm another. Whether or not the added grapefruits are up top or down below does not alter the aforementioned. I adhere to a simple rule. You hit me and I will hit you back. Preferably, I should not have to hit anyone but I have every right to defend myself.

Not for a renegade Shepard that let the council die. You are not reinstated. Even if there is no arrest having that video out for view in the public damages Shepard severely. Think he can operate as effectively when people know they can push his buttons easily and manipulate him. Likewise, people will be less likely to co-operate or may even outright lie. Fearing he might just kill you might make someone clam up. It amkes him look like an idiot plain and simple. No one would trust him with anything of substance after that.

In fact, when you do it I would expect the Illusive man to give you the largest dressing down in history. Obviously that doesn't happen. How often do you hear of real military officials just clocking reporters let alone opposite sex ones? Exactly.
 
I stand by my assertion it should not be an option.

Forcing the Batarian to drink his own poison is eye for eye. He might survive since you did. That being said I guess he thought he had more chance to live that way then if you just capped him.

I agree there are worse instances of vioence in other games. It is purely mindless for the most part. I have not artoke of any GTA game for that and other reasons.  At least GTA had the wanted system for repercussions. IN ME there often is none a s you pointed out. In the first being a spectre meant you could be above the law. In the 2nd not so much.

[CROAT_56]

Jagri wrote...



Wrex: "Hahaha hitting women is funny..."

that was funny don't care what anyone says lol

i'm paragon but you do not DO NOT  disrespect fallen heroes be you man woman or turian

but i usually turn her question around on her naming the entire 5th fleet casulty list

[InvincibleHero]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Agreed, OP.

The renegade interrups that are there just for the lulz ruin the idea of the Renegade.

Yeah it does seem to be the wont of video game designers to make the bad or evil or renegade path be one of abject stupidity and absudity.  Would anyone want such an idiot as to paste a female reporter on camera being in charge of saving the galaxy? Not to mention the lack of discipline of any kind. loose cannon would barely start to describe such a fool.

Renegade as defined by them seems to be do what it takes to get the job done. exactly what did he accomplish by punching her except ruining his reputation that of humans, the Alliance, etc. How does it help towards his focus on the Collectors/reapaers. Not a thing so it makes no sense and if it were me would be in the toss bin.

[Eddo36]

InvincibleHero, what is your opinion on having women as foot soldiers on the front lines of the battlefield? Should they be protected more than men?