238 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

She is insulting the memory of all those soldiers who gave their lives so that people like her can live for personal profit, and she is doing it by trying to pin the blame on you again for personal profit.  She is trying to destroy your credibility and reputation for her own gain.  There are consequences to all our actions and if she is willing to do that then she should be willing to be punched as a consequence of that, and her reaction shows that she is willing to capitalise on it. 

I would never punch her simply because she would use it to increase her ratings, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve it.  Consequences: if you act like a dick then you should expect to be treated like a dick.  Just because you use words to attack someone doesn't mean that you are not attacking them, nor does it mean people can't use violence as a retaliation.  If a politician orders people to be round up and shot does that mean that retaliators can't shoot him because he himself has not personally killed anyone?  Jilani's actions can lead to people being lynched, riots, etc, by stiring things up for ratings, and probably has done.  She is the worst kind of scum, the ones who hid behind words.

She is a reporter doing gonzo reporting. It happens all the time in real life. She is indeed trying to provoke a reaction she can use. However, I doubt she expects a fully trained Alliance soldier to punch her in retaliation. Nor should they ever. Courtmartial would likely happen to a real-life officer that did so. At the very least demotion to some desk job in Alaska. So in keeping with your theme, if someone punches you then you have the right to escalate that to murder them. it does not meet eye for eye, you are escalating. I have to disagree no matter what someone says about me in his position I would never strike her. You just prove the worst about you and invalidate any argument you might have had whikle she comes off looking 100% correct in her assertions.

In this instance she is doing nothing you mentioned just slandering the decision of Shepard in getting the Council and 10,000 killed. IIRC it was somewhat different for my paragon.

[Eddo36]

Greetings InvincibleHero. You might have missed my earlier question to you, or are avoiding it. If it was just a sense of missing, I'll state it again. Please answer with full honesty should you decide to answer. Thanks.

Eddo36 wrote...

InvincibleHero, what is your opinion on having women as foot soldiers on the front lines of the battlefield? Should they be protected more than men?

[Count Viceroy]

InvincibleHero wrote...


I don't get where it is hypocritical at all. Your stance is any violence is equal. So you would be for punching children, babies, elderly, or handicapped people  or you would be a hypocrite. I am stating a truth that certain types of violence are more unacceptable for very good reasons. So if you think any of those are not in the same boat, then it is because they are weaker more helpless, or some other reason. That makes the not Ok for man to hit woman equally valid. Simple reasoning.

It's funny how you keep putting words into my mouth and then countering with flawed examples to justify your point of view.

I never said violence is equal. Hell, I even stuck to your own examples. Your scenario put a grown woman being hit by a grown man. I don't think the gender of either participant should affect the judgement of said situation. Where this turned into baby bashing I don't know. 

The main point of all this, is that the basis for this discussion is entierly grounded in the current real life values and opinions of our universe and not the Mass effect universe. With everyone being equal thanks to gene mods and what not. Therefore this topic and your arguments have no validity in the slightest.

Our discussion became real life based when you decided to use real life situations to try and strengthen your argument.  You and I may disagree on the real life version and what gender equality means, but your argument holds no validity what so ever applied to the mass effect universe.

This thread is a waste of space and I'm done with it.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 06 janvier 2011 - 07:13 .

[CROAT_56]

^agreed

[InvincibleHero]

Aurica wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
Except we never know what the interrupts will do. I did not honestly expect that would occur. It was a little shocking.

I kind of agree on having more choices, but there are such things as having too much leeway.

What Shepard done to her is rather mild compared to what shepard could do to Conrad.  Shepard could knee him or even shoot him.

And remember that what Conrad was doing may have been pushing it a bit.  But overall he means well and is
kind of hero-worshipping Shepard.   His motives are completely different from Ms Al Jilani who seems to be trying her best at dishonoring those Alliance soldiers who died during the Battle of the Citadel. 

Personally, I don't feel like too much leeway has been given.  It is fine as it is, as it allows us more freedom to depict our Shepards the way we want.   Take the high ground or take the low ground entirely up to you.  To be honest, according to the events of the game.   If Shepard was not around during the Battle of Citadel, there might not even be a citadel or even a galaxy left.  She might not even exist anymore had it not been Shepard & the alliance.

So what Ms Al Jilani is attempting to do is extremely disrespectful.  So put yourself in the position of Shepard who risk life and limb of not just himself but the men & women of the fifth fleet.  Would you not be insulted and put Ms Al Jilani in place? 

I'm certain there are better ways to handle this but I can understand how others would react.  And quite frankly, she did ask for it.

It was an extreme method of convincing Verner in order to save his life. There is some motive behind it and a good outcome. With Miss al-Jilani neither comes off better for it though Shepard totally trashes his character and the Alliance in one swing. No good comes out of it.

Actually being a renegade Shepard it seems a denial of your complicity in the deaths of the Council and all 10,000 aboard the flagship. Punching her gives plausibility to your guilt. Talking her down makes you look rational and makes what you say believable. It also honors the memory of the dead better and does not dishonor anyone.

I still would never punch her and still feel such an attack is unwarranted for what she did.

[InvincibleHero]

Arcadionn wrote...

On the topic of gender equality... so many people have double standards... Am I a promoter of man of woman violence; obviously not. My point being that if it is ok for women to hit men, and wrong for men to hit women given the same circumstances... we have double standards and not equality...

Not hitting anyone should go without saying; but there are people whom really have it coming on both sides of the gender fence.

I did not see posts about how hitting her could make children think its funny to hit women; and I am happy because blaming video games and music for poor parenting and poor teacing of values is always frustrating to me.

I said it was more understandable though still wrong for a fem Shepard to hit her. I tend to think male hitting females is more morally reprehensible.

Well you bring up a point. Shepard is hero of humanity and some may mirror those actions perpetuating a cycle of violence.

[InvincibleHero]

Eddo36 wrote...

InvincibleHero, what is your opinion on having women as foot soldiers on the front lines of the battlefield? Should they be protected more than men?

If they are capable of being on the frontlines and desire to do so, then yes they should be. If they cannot do the job and are a liability and need more protection then no certainly not. They can shoot just as straight as a man with guns and kill with said weapons. A soldier 200 meters away is going to fire on the uniforms not whether they are male or female.

[Xilizhra]

However, I doubt she expects a fully trained Alliance soldier to punch her in retaliation.

She gets punched a lot... I think she's used to it by now.

[InvincibleHero]

Count Viceroy wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...


I don't get where it is hypocritical at all. Your stance is any violence is equal. So you would be for punching children, babies, elderly, or handicapped people  or you would be a hypocrite. I am stating a truth that certain types of violence are more unacceptable for very good reasons. So if you think any of those are not in the same boat, then it is because they are weaker more helpless, or some other reason. That makes the not Ok for man to hit woman equally valid. Simple reasoning.

It's funny how you keep putting words into my mouth and then countering with flawed examples to justify your point of view.

I never said violence is equal. Hell, I even stuck to your own examples. Your scenario put a grown woman being hit by a grown man. I don't think the gender of either participant should affect the judgement of said situation. Where this turned into baby bashing I don't know. 

The main point of all this, is that the basis for this discussion is entierly grounded in the current real life values and opinions of our universe and not the Mass effect universe. With everyone being equal thanks to gene mods and what not. Therefore this topic and your arguments have no validity in the slightest.

Our discussion became real life based when you decided to use real life situations to try and strengthen your argument.  You and I may disagree on the real life version and what gender equality means, but your argument holds no validity what so ever applied to the mass effect universe.

This thread is a waste of space and I'm done with it.

Iit would help if you reread what I posted. I asked if you felt those things were true. Don't make such accusations as putting words in your mouth.

You did state man hitting woman is same because of gender equality. That is equivalent violence or your whole argument wa sinvalidated from the start. I stated that women are weaker than men significantly so on average, and you seem to agree that hiting babies and the others is immoral which invalidates your argument. Women are in the same boat being weaker than men. Your only conclusion should therefore be it isn't right to strike women. You still believe the opposite. 

 In the ME universe I didn't know al-Jilani is a modded assasin that can handle herself.  In fact, the advantage of Shepard over al-Jilani is even greater than a current day male vs. female. He has cybernetic parts, biotics, training up the wazoo, and can kill with a punch if he chooses to. In fact, it is more morally reprehensible.

 It was also a sucker punch not sporting at all. Nowhere is it a product of gender equality to strike a woman.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Do not deny me the ability to give a no-good reporter what she deserves! It is a game and I will smack that reporter if I feel like it! She had it coming too.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Wrong topic, odd.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 07 janvier 2011 - 05:49 .

[Eddo36]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

InvincibleHero, what is your opinion on having women as foot soldiers on the front lines of the battlefield? Should they be protected more than men?

If they are capable of being on the frontlines and desire to do so, then yes they should be. If they cannot do the job and are a liability and need more protection then no certainly not. They can shoot just as straight as a man with guns and kill with said weapons. A soldier 200 meters away is going to fire on the uniforms not whether they are male or female.

I respect that answer. Are you for or against equality for both genders? Are men and women created equal? If so, hitting a woman as a man is no worse than hitting another man. Hitting is bad, yes, but shouldn't discriminate with gender.

[Schneidend]

InvincibleHero wrote...

She is a reporter doing gonzo reporting. It happens all the time in real life. She is indeed trying to provoke a reaction she can use. However, I doubt she expects a fully trained Alliance soldier to punch her in retaliation. Nor should they ever. Courtmartial would likely happen to a real-life officer that did so. At the very least demotion to some desk job in Alaska. So in keeping with your theme, if someone punches you then you have the right to escalate that to murder them. it does not meet eye for eye, you are escalating. I have to disagree no matter what someone says about me in his position I would never strike her. You just prove the worst about you and invalidate any argument you might have had whikle she comes off looking 100% correct in her assertions.

In this instance she is doing nothing you mentioned just slandering the decision of Shepard in getting the Council and 10,000 killed. IIRC it was somewhat different for my paragon.

Who would court martial him? He's a Spectre when you punch Al-Jilani the first time, and you're either legally dead and/or still a Spectre the second time.

[008Zulu]

Xilizhra wrote...

However, I doubt she expects a fully trained Alliance soldier to punch her in retaliation.

She gets punched a lot... I think she's used to it by now.

Maybe she does because she has a... thing... for pain. She cant be doing it for ratings, it happens too frequently that people would have gotten used to it.

[nikki191]

Count Viceroy wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...
If we're holding up and arguing the fictional universe of Mass effect to our own with its values and standards, then female shepards wouldn't even exsist, amongst other things.

off topic but, the current women in millitaries around the world would like a word with you. They exist.

Yeah, prohibited from frontline infantry combat roles. You will not find a female in the special forces for instance, of which Shepard belongs.

prohibited from frontline combat roles? New zealand, denmark, finland, france, germany, norway, israel and a few others would beg to differ.

personally my femshep wanted to foster interspecies relations by reaching out to the krogan population by krogan head butting her

Modifié par nikki191, 08 janvier 2011 - 03:56 .

[InvincibleHero]

Eddo36 wrote...

I respect that answer. Are you for or against equality for both genders? Are men and women created equal? If so, hitting a woman as a man is no worse than hitting another man. Hitting is bad, yes, but shouldn't discriminate with gender.

Nope physically they are not simply by the biology of hormones. Testosterone makes males bigger and stronger with denser bones. It is more on an intellectual level that gender equality is meant. It means they could be as good a doctor as a man because it has little to do with physical strength, but manual dexterity and intelligence.

No women  will almost always be at a disadvantage so it isn't gender discrimination. Now if it were reversed and a 300 lb woman was beating a 120 lb man then it would be just as wrong and unfair.  

[InvincibleHero]

Schneidend wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

She is a reporter doing gonzo reporting. It happens all the time in real life. She is indeed trying to provoke a reaction she can use. However, I doubt she expects a fully trained Alliance soldier to punch her in retaliation. Nor should they ever. Courtmartial would likely happen to a real-life officer that did so. At the very least demotion to some desk job in Alaska. So in keeping with your theme, if someone punches you then you have the right to escalate that to murder them. it does not meet eye for eye, you are escalating. I have to disagree no matter what someone says about me in his position I would never strike her. You just prove the worst about you and invalidate any argument you might have had whikle she comes off looking 100% correct in her assertions.

In this instance she is doing nothing you mentioned just slandering the decision of Shepard in getting the Council and 10,000 killed. IIRC it was somewhat different for my paragon.

Who would court martial him? He's a Spectre when you punch Al-Jilani the first time, and you're either legally dead and/or still a Spectre the second time.

I mentioned real life consequences, because no real officer is going to do that. It should never have been an option IMHO.

The Alliance could courtmartial and disavow him which will definitely impair his popularity in human colonies.  After all he is still considered and Alliance commander since he hasn't been discharged. He got special dispensation to be a council spectre. It may be mostly symbolic, but it would hurt him in tangible ways.

[Bullets McDeath]

Invincible Hero, you are thinking way, way too hard about this. It was an intentionally over-the-top Renegade douchebag option in the first game, it got a lot of the same attention you are giving it now and the general concensus was that was a particularly hilarious example of what an over-the-top douchebag RenegadeShep can be. The instance in ME2 is even more clearly played for laughs.

Seriously, it's just a joke. Bioware is not saying it is OK for cybernetic marines to sucker punch unarmed female civilians. They're just saying it's funny.

And really, the female thing is semi-irrelevant, since Shepard can be a female herself and still take a swing at her.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 08 janvier 2011 - 06:15 .

[didymos1120]

InvincibleHero wrote...
The Alliance could courtmartial and disavow him which will definitely impair his popularity in human colonies.  After all he is still considered and Alliance commander since he hasn't been discharged. He got special dispensation to be a council spectre. It may be mostly symbolic, but it would hurt him in tangible ways.

Right, 'cause that's exactly the sort of thing the Alliance would want to do to the first human Spectre.  And in ME2, just no: Shep ain't Alliance anymore, and will explicitly say so during Tali's loyalty mission.

[JuicElawl]

in a galaxy where men and women butcher each other mercilessly, i think a reporter gets off easy if she's only slapped by shepard.

[knightnblu]

Dude, when I do a headshot with the sniper rifle, I want to see my targets head explode. If I deck the reporter chick, I think that she should be spitting teeth. In fact, I wouldn't mind more violent and vicious actions for Shep in ME3. The stakes are higher than they have ever been and it is high time for the gloves to come off. That's my .02.

[CROAT_56]

^ I am surprised he didn't say anything about the eclipse merc you throw out the window i mean hes just a lowly merc where as your a ciberneticly advanced super soldier practicly. lol and he was unarmed as well.

[didymos1120]

CROAT_56 wrote...

^ I am surprised he didn't say anything about the eclipse merc you throw out the window i mean hes just a lowly merc where as your a ciberneticly advanced super soldier practicly. lol and he was unarmed as well.

Don't forget about this:

[Deztyn]

Even my Paragons can't resist saying goodnight. But Hale's delivery is so much better.

Modifié par Deztyn, 08 janvier 2011 - 09:25 .

[InvincibleHero]

outlaworacle wrote...

Invincible Hero, you are thinking way, way too hard about this. It was an intentionally over-the-top Renegade douchebag option in the first game, it got a lot of the same attention you are giving it now and the general concensus was that was a particularly hilarious example of what an over-the-top douchebag RenegadeShep can be. The instance in ME2 is even more clearly played for laughs.

Seriously, it's just a joke. Bioware is not saying it is OK for cybernetic marines to sucker punch unarmed female civilians. They're just saying it's funny.

And really, the female thing is semi-irrelevant, since Shepard can be a female herself and still take a swing at her.

Seriously how is it funny? It never made sense to me in any regard. I certainly find nothing humorous about it.