238 réponses à ce sujet

[Commander Kurt]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
As to men being stronger than women, mate the average man compared to the average woman isn't that different, and training trumps gender.  A trained military person of either gender is going to be significantly more powerful than a civvie of either gender.  Your issue should be that a military-trained person of either gender hit a civvie of either gender, not a gender one.  Oh, and if we are gonna get 'scientific' about gender differences, it has been shown that women have a significantly higher pain tolerance than men and are more flexible, therefore which gender has the advantage is not as straight forward as you might think.

Not really arguing this, you have a valid point. FemShep hitting the reporter is very close to equally stupid. Just one thing, the average man compared to the average woman; the difference is rather huge. I know, I'm a woman in a very physical line of work (building scaffolds), way stronger than the average woman, and I don't stand a chance against the average man (I know that too, play alot of sports with guys). I wish it wasn't so, and I enjoy the thought of not being at a physical disadvantage so I like hearing what you're saying. You're mostly right, and extreme training (which is what we have in ME) does trump gender.

[InvincibleHero]

TheChinstrap wrote...

Shepard can do whatever he wants. Who in their right mind would try to incarcerate or otherwise hinder the only person capable of saving everything ever (the council i guess)? Shepard fights so that the future may hold others who keep their pimp hand strong, and that's as noble as one person can be in my book

In ME2 Most people are blissfully unaware you are saving anyone. After all only a few human colonies are being extincted. Council tends to disbelieve you or plain not care.

As for doing anything can you go up to a C-sec and just blast their brains on the wall? nope. Bioware chooses what you can do in all instances.

[InvincibleHero]

Spornicus wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

I'm still trying to figure out why he thinks knocking out a frail, mentally unstable but total non-threat scientist is just fine and dandy.

Because the OP is SEXIST! He doesn't think women are equal to men; he suggests that they are inferior to them. Who's the bigot now?

So it is sexist to say men shouldn't punch women? If you bothered to read posts and actually understand them then you would not think this way. I said it is fine to have women as soldiers and they are competent for everythhing a male can do excepting some where size/strength matters, and just as intelligent which is what matters. I stated a fact they are physically weaker than men and in this case al-Jilani is likely below average female and Shepard is trained killed with cyborg parts and biotics to boot. You are sexist to think it is equality to have a man hit woman. That was the theory from caveman days till now.

BTW men and women are not equal. Men cannot bear children. Can women go around topless like a man? Nope not in most places. They are equal where it counts in intelligence, verbalization, etc.

[InvincibleHero]

Commander Kurt wrote...

I was actually going Sesame Street with this, but it turns out I'm cranky and my attention span is too short. So here's the short version.

1. Women are physically weaker than men.
2. Our society is NOT built on survival of the fittest, but rather on equal rights regardless of strength/fitness.

1+2= It's worse for a man to hit a woman than another man.

If this is still confusing you, think of it this way; Shepard would not get hit for saying the same thing the reporter is saying. This is because he is stronger than those who would want to hit him. If Shep hits a woman for saying the wrong thing, that means The Stronger One (Shepard) ultimately decides what is the wrong thing to say and The Weaker One (reporter) has to oblige to his rule. You can't really say that it's okay since a strong man would also get hit for saying the same thing because in reality, he wouldn't. You don't pick a fight with someone significantly stronger than yourself, and if you did you would loose anyway.

Trying to argue gender equality as a reason for men hitting women is.. well, let's just call it wrong and no one needs to get banned.

OP; I appreciate what you're saying, and I hope you don't expect to get too many people agreeing with you. That's just not where society is at the moment.

I agree with you on everything here. Yeah sadly many think equality is the right of man to hit woman. I don't get it.

[InvincibleHero]

Xeranx wrote...

Nice try at a reversal.  It doesn't work.  You tried putting words in someone else's mouth about a statement regarding equality by using babies to reverse the argument on them when anyone could see that blatant tactic.  But no, I never said I was for punching female reporters regardless of what they say.  I've never done it in game.  I'm against your view that firing a bullet at Conrad Verner is certainly more ideal because he's male.  Nevermind being on camera that's just something you don't do.  You don't fire a weapon off at an individual that doesn't represent a threat to you.  I could lie to Verner (though it's regarded as a renegade choice) and get him to stop that way.  Absolutely no need for firing a round to "save his life" because he's mentally deficient.  If the roles were reversed so that Conrad were the reporter and Al-jilani was the Shepard fanatic and choices were presented the same would you find firing the shot and hitting Conrad acceptable?

I never said because he's male. I said there is a context for the action and a benefit for Verner and Shepard as well. How does Shepard benefit form punching a helpless civilian on camera? In no way. You can't justify the action in any way.

Verner is acting very much a threat so much so the Asari matriarch/barmaid was going to singularity him. He was no innocent bystander but an agressor.

Yeah we get a menu of choices in a game like ME. They decide how to label the results but in real life Verner is armored, has a gun, and is hostile/causing a disturbance and threatening bar patrons and trying to steal the deed to the place. If he did not stand down real cops would kill a real life Verner. Explain your way out that.

[InvincibleHero]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

First off, the simple answer as to why it's there is because, as Admiral Ackbar would say, IT's A TRAP!  She's trying to make you look bad and punching her achieves this, it's whether you fall for it or not, that's the simple reason it's there. 

InvincibleHero wrote...
ME universe equal rights. You're joking right.  Hmm council two males and one female Asari and since there are only female Asari well that's default. Human Alliance leaders Udina male, Anderson male, cannon Shepard male, XO Pressly male, Illusive man male, Wrex male Krogan leader, the admiral in charge of Quarians is male and admiralty board has more males than female. Do you sense a pattern? I could go on and on.

As for this, the council only has one female because Bioware did not have the resources to make female versions of those characters, simple as that.  Seriously, have you not noticed that there are no females of any race other than the asari (who only have the one gender) and the Quarians (of whom we only had males show up for the first time in ME2, in ME1 you only see female Quarians and that was because you had a female Quarian squad member)? 

As for the human leaders, Udina is a politician not a military man so that has nothing whatsoever to do with it, and his predecessor was a woman.  Forget canon Shep, he can be either gender, and was for marketing reasons.  Anderson is one captain, possible councillor or admiral in me2 depending on choice made, you'd have been better served by saying Admiral Hackett instead.  Since you think captains count then I refer you to the fact that if you take the spacer background your mother Hannah Shepard is a captain in the Alliance and is offered a promotion to Admiralty in ME2 which she turns down.  Then there's Ashley Willams, serving in a position where brute strength is even more needed than the other positions needed as a foot soldier.

The Quarians are led by five admirals, not one, Rael had no more authority over the other four than they did over him.  The admiralty board had two females and two males (remember Shala-Raan is an admiral, she just didn't get to cast a vote due to personal issues) at the time, and while Tali's father was male(being her father) his successor may not be, and since it implies that Tali might be voted in as admiral that would move the ratio of male to female to the favour of female.

Krogans have issues with their females due to the genophage.  The fact that they have formed their own female-only clan which even Wrex has to listen to shows that they hold alot of power.

I too could go on and on.

As to men being stronger than women, mate the average man compared to the average woman isn't that different, and training trumps gender.  A trained military person of either gender is going to be significantly more powerful than a civvie of either gender.  Your issue should be that a military-trained person of either gender hit a civvie of either gender, not a gender one.  Oh, and if we are gonna get 'scientific' about gender differences, it has been shown that women have a significantly higher pain tolerance than men and are more flexible, therefore which gender has the advantage is not as straight forward as you might think.

Canon Shepard is male read the novels. Ashley has no position of power, in fact she was on the outs because of her grandfather's actions. Fact remains most of the power positions are filled by men. There is no excuse since there are human women everywhere in the game. Admiral Kahoku is another example of a man in power.

As for strength this is for average people. It will open your eyes. http://www.exrx.net/...sStandards.html

If you went maximum male strength is like Mark Henry deadlifting 900lbs while the strongest woman would be lucky to hit half probably not even. Should lok up Olympic women vs. men but I know the basics of it anyhow. You're plain wrong as that prevuious chart shows weights and training affects and women are still substantially weaker at the same weight and level of training.

[Xeranx]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Nice try at a reversal.  It doesn't work.  You tried putting words in someone else's mouth about a statement regarding equality by using babies to reverse the argument on them when anyone could see that blatant tactic.  But no, I never said I was for punching female reporters regardless of what they say.  I've never done it in game.  I'm against your view that firing a bullet at Conrad Verner is certainly more ideal because he's male.  Nevermind being on camera that's just something you don't do.  You don't fire a weapon off at an individual that doesn't represent a threat to you.  I could lie to Verner (though it's regarded as a renegade choice) and get him to stop that way.  Absolutely no need for firing a round to "save his life" because he's mentally deficient.  If the roles were reversed so that Conrad were the reporter and Al-jilani was the Shepard fanatic and choices were presented the same would you find firing the shot and hitting Conrad acceptable?

I never said because he's male. I said there is a context for the action and a benefit for Verner and Shepard as well. How does Shepard benefit form punching a helpless civilian on camera? In no way. You can't justify the action in any way.

Exactly what context is there in that scenario that justifies pulling a pistol and firing on an individual?  I would love to hear your rationale.  I would also very much like to learn about your stance on my idea of substituting Verner for the reporter and Al-Jilani for Conrad's position and letting it play out in the same manner.  I wonder which you'd be ok with.  Keep in mind that in ME you can cause Conrad to die.

Verner is acting very much a threat so much so the Asari matriarch/barmaid was going to singularity him. He was no innocent bystander but an agressor.

Do you know the context for why Conrad is even there?  Yes, he's the aggressor, but he believes he has a good reason despite not being all there.

Yeah we get a menu of choices in a game like ME. They decide how to label the results but in real life Verner is armored, has a gun, and is hostile/causing a disturbance and threatening bar patrons and trying to steal the deed to the place. If he did not stand down real cops would kill a real life Verner. Explain your way out that.

So now you're trying to wave away what happens with Conrad and you're saying he is threatening bar patrons?  The owner of the bar stated that Conrad was causing trouble.  I walked into the bar and the only person having any kind of discussion with Conrad was Atheytha (hope I spelled that right) and her responses to everything said by Conrad up until we initiate our own dialogue with him is, "uh huh".  Her response is said with the tone that says she's either bored or tired of entertaining him.  There were no bar patrons being harassed.  In fact there were three guys watching an Asari table dance for them and elsewhere in the bar there was a Turian trying to come on to a Quarian female.  If there was any danger there, you wouldn't know it to look at the bar patrons you say are being threatened.

Fact is there is no justification for discharging your weapon at an individual who doesn't present a clear and present danger to yourself or others.  Talk about "totally gratuitous violence", by the time that shot is fired you already have his attention so there's no need to fire the shot.  He isn't waving a gun around threatening to blow anyone away before or after you approach him.  You're talking to him and the dialogue doesn't involve screaming or hostile action until you decide to hit him or shoot at his foot which is more likely to cause a panic.  Then again, this doesn't worry you for whatever reason.

[James2912]

The point is its a renegade option, renegade Shep is not a nice guy, it would be unrealistic if renegade shep was a gentleman!

[Jagri]

elfadelbosco wrote...

I think that the real FICTION in ME is that you can be a woman commanding a crew of men (mostly men) being respected by everybody.
In real life being a woman in the working environment means to be disrespected, molested, treated like a prostitute... I tell you, I'm a woman and that's true!

Lieutenant Commander Darlene Iskra, USN was the first Navy woman to command a ship. 1990.

On 10 June 1998, CDR Maureen A. Farren became the first woman to command a combatant ship when she took command of USS Mount Vernon, an amphibious dock landing ship.

On 28 January 2010, the Navy announced that Rear Admiral Nora Tyson would be the first female to command a carrier strike group; she will start her new assignment in June 2010.

These would be examples of women within the US Navy who have been given positions of authority and are down right respected within the military.

Modifié par Jagri, 17 janvier 2011 - 01:58 .

[didymos1120]

InvincibleHero wrote...
Canon Shepard is male read the novels..

Are you sure you've read the novels?  Because in no place do they ever specify Shep's sex.  There is no canon Shepard, period.  There's just marketing material Shepard.

[JJ Long]

To the original poster:

Get off your high horse

[jeweledleah]

I used to think that it was so bad to punch her until I heard her gleefully celebrating getting the punch on camera as Shep walks away. she wants to make you or anyone she interviews really look bad, no matter the cause she's trying to provoke you as much as she can manage. I tried being nice to her in a first game and answer the questions diplomatically ...and then I got chewed out for making alliance look bad, because she went ahead and twisted everything my shep said. so in ME2, I made her look like a thoughtless idiot that she is. hell knows, I wanted to punch her. I didn't because my "me" shep would rather resolve things without violence when possible. But I really wanted to. not because she's a woman, but because she's a vulture.



the option is there for people who wish they could punch her and are willing to act on their impulse. the fact that she's a woman is irrelevant.

[Interactive Civilian]

didymos1120 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
Canon Shepard is male read the novels..

Are you sure you've read the novels?  Because in no place do they ever specify Shep's sex.  There is no canon Shepard, period.  There's just marketing material Shepard.

THIS. I was just about to point this out and how impressed I was that they avoided pronouns in the novels without making the text awkward. Commander Shepard is only referred to as such, or as "the commander" when being talked about. There is not a single he/she/him/her/his pronoun to indicate his gender (at least not in Ascension or Retribution... haven't read Revelation yet, but I assume the same, assuming there is any mention of Shepard at all in it).

[Sajuro]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Spornicus wrote...

The Mass Effect universe is all about equal rights. Women and men serve alongside in the military, and both have the equal right to be punched in the face by Shepard. Sheesh, stop being a sexist and thinking that women are frail and weak.

ME universe equal rights. You're joking right.  Hmm council two males and one female Asari and since there are only female Asari well that's default. Human Alliance leaders Udina male, Anderson male, cannon Shepard male, XO Pressly male, Illusive man male, Wrex male Krogan leader, the admiral in charge of Quarians is male and admiralty board has more males than female. Do you sense a pattern? I could go on and on.

I missed it where are you guaranteed the right to punch any sex in the face? Right. I am not against women in the military in fact I play fem Sheps to get the full experience of the game.

Prove women are equal in physical metrics both in average and extremes. Come on I am waiting. There are always going to be vast differences in that purely by how we were created.

So your conclusion is it is sexist to think men shouldn't punch women? LOL Can't even dignify that.

Heavens forbid that the male councilors are qualified to be councilors, or that the male Admirals (a 50/50 ratio after the Alerai, and with 5 admirals you are bound to have  more of one gender unless of course one is a hemaphrodite) Miranda , your self appointed XO, is a female (duh). There is no 'Cannon' Shepard, only Ad Shepard. Wrex is the leader of the MALE camp, so it isn't sexist that the leader isn't female. And it isn't sexist/unequal when a man is in a position he is qualified for unless he was chosen over a more qualified female candidate because he has a weiner!

You don't have the chance to stick a gun in a woman's face, or push a femal mercenary out a window but no one is yelling 'OMG MASS EFFECT IS SEXIST!' because those characters are threatened or killed because Conrad is endangering his own damn life and that Mercenary was unfortunate to have an interrupt in his conversation. If al-Jilani was a man I would still punch her.

In the Mass Effect Society it seems the norms of today regarding gender are near non existant (at least for humans), that's how they are equal. If Shepard had said something like "Make me a sandwich" that would be sexist.  But she was an aggravating reporter who stepped over the line, and got a fist in her face because of it. (To be fair, she seemed no worse for the wear since she got up right afterwords)

[GuardianAngel470]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

She's asking for it, the fact that she's a woman and shepard (potentially) is a man is beside the point.

Wether it was appropriate or not isn't relevant I think. It might have been for the ME1, but it's now become a gag more than anything. Alliance military does make it clear in Me1 that it isn't acceptable, obviously though they can't touch shepard at that point. And as mentioned, she gets hit by a krogan and a volus as well.

You can be sure she'll be back in ME3. She should do her interviews with a hockey mask.

I don't think it is beside the point. Male on female violence is very abhorrent or should be to most people. I would only ever think about it to protect my life or that of another. Being she is an untained combatant and you have hulking biotic and military trained Shepard; it should never happen.

Well as humor it fails. In a cartoon maybe, but not a videogame.

After all you have organizations going on how NFL is bad because more incidents of  male on female violence after the Super Bowl. Do we need media attacking videogames for it?

See, this is why women aren't treated equally (or one of them). Double standards every freaking way you look. If I flashed my *ss at a cop I'd get arrested but if a woman uses her cleavage to get out of a ticket it's perfectly normal.

Politics aside, I do think it was overkill to punch her. I feel much better knowing that I embarrassed her on Galactic television to be honest.

Although, if I had the option, I'd shoot the camera and take her into a back room somewhere and do a little intimidation. Fear in my opinion is a much better punishment for her, teach her how to respect people with guns strapped to their backs and more kills under their belts than Stalin.

[GuardianAngel470]

jeweledleah wrote...

I used to think that it was so bad to punch her until I heard her gleefully celebrating getting the punch on camera as Shep walks away. she wants to make you or anyone she interviews really look bad, no matter the cause she's trying to provoke you as much as she can manage. I tried being nice to her in a first game and answer the questions diplomatically ...and then I got chewed out for making alliance look bad, because she went ahead and twisted everything my shep said. so in ME2, I made her look like a thoughtless idiot that she is. hell knows, I wanted to punch her. I didn't because my "me" shep would rather resolve things without violence when possible. But I really wanted to. not because she's a woman, but because she's a vulture.

the option is there for people who wish they could punch her and are willing to act on their impulse. the fact that she's a woman is irrelevant.

This is also the reason I don't punch her.

I do shoot Conrad though cuz he needs the culture shock. Really, really badly. He doesn't understand what he has gotten himself into and a shot to the foot isn't going to do any damage.

[InvincibleHero]

Xeranx wrote...

So now you're trying to wave away what happens with Conrad and you're saying he is threatening bar patrons?  The owner of the bar stated that Conrad was causing trouble.  I walked into the bar and the only person having any kind of discussion with Conrad was Atheytha (hope I spelled that right) and her responses to everything said by Conrad up until we initiate our own dialogue with him is, "uh huh".  Her response is said with the tone that says she's either bored or tired of entertaining him.  There were no bar patrons being harassed.  In fact there were three guys watching an Asari table dance for them and elsewhere in the bar there was a Turian trying to come on to a Quarian female.  If there was any danger there, you wouldn't know it to look at the bar patrons you say are being threatened.

Fact is there is no justification for discharging your weapon at an individual who doesn't present a clear and present danger to yourself or others.  Talk about "totally gratuitous violence", by the time that shot is fired you already have his attention so there's no need to fire the shot.  He isn't waving a gun around threatening to blow anyone away before or after you approach him.  You're talking to him and the dialogue doesn't involve screaming or hostile action until you decide to hit him or shoot at his foot which is more likely to cause a panic.  Then again, this doesn't worry you for whatever reason.

Just because they didn't adequately set up the scene doesn't make what the owner said any less valid. He did tell the bar maid to hand over the title in a threatening manner. She was not afraid of Verner because she is an Asari matriarch. She could have killed him at any time. Just like the cantina scene in Star Wars. it is a lawless place and people are jaded to it. It doesn't make it any less of a crime what Verner was doing.

You did not get to see anything that happened previously and it seemed when you walk in he is going to escalate the situation. Shepard defuses the situation when he sees who you are.


No danger to anyone? Did you not hear the threats both implicit and outright in Verner's spiel to her? He is both armored and possessed of a gun and making threats. He is the very definition of armed and dangerous. It makes  sense in the context of the game to shoot an armored and armed person threatening another. It does not to punch a defenseless non-trained unarmed female reporter on the Citadel while cameras are rolling. You have no way to dispute that so the whole argument fails. Council would likely reprimand you for punching al-Jilani while in the case of Verner there is no case. On Illium Council has no jurisdiction, so even if Shepard killed Verner they would do nothing.

[InvincibleHero]

James2912 wrote...

The point is its a renegade option, renegade Shep is not a nice guy, it would be unrealistic if renegade shep was a gentleman!

Even a renegade would not act that stupidly. Punching a female reporter live on camera come on. If his temper was that great, he would not have even made it through cadet traing let alone be considered the pinacle of Alliance training.

[GuardianAngel470]

InvincibleHero wrote...

James2912 wrote...

The point is its a renegade option, renegade Shep is not a nice guy, it would be unrealistic if renegade shep was a gentleman!

Even a renegade would not act that stupidly. Punching a female reporter live on camera come on. If his temper was that great, he would not have even made it through cadet traing let alone be considered the pinacle of Alliance training.

People change. The 18 year old cadet is not the same person as the 29/31 year old killing machine. One has seen violence perpetrated against them and the other has killed hundreds if not thousands of people.

I'm thinking any person's shepard should be suffering from PTSD right about now. That has a way of shortening one's fuse.

[cdzander]

Lol. After playing through both ME and ME2, Cmdr. Shepard has killed hundreds of people, and that's not even counting Geth, Collectors, Husks, Varren, and any other assorted things that aren't people.  Asari, Batarians, Krogan, Humans, Turians, Vorcha, and Salarians die in droves around him or her.

All that death, and punching one annoying reporter bothers you?

Hey, she'll live. A lot more than I can say for just about everything else that ends up on Shepard's bad side.

Modifié par cdzander, 18 janvier 2011 - 05:50 .

[James2912]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

James2912 wrote...

The point is its a renegade option, renegade Shep is not a nice guy, it would be unrealistic if renegade shep was a gentleman!

Even a renegade would not act that stupidly. Punching a female reporter live on camera come on. If his temper was that great, he would not have even made it through cadet traing let alone be considered the pinacle of Alliance training.

People change. The 18 year old cadet is not the same person as the 29/31 year old killing machine. One has seen violence perpetrated against them and the other has killed hundreds if not thousands of people.

I'm thinking any person's shepard should be suffering from PTSD right about now. That has a way of shortening one's fuse.

Very true!
Also we have to realize this is just a video game! Would I kill people in real life? No, not unless lives were threatened. Would I walk around as a red eyed **** in real life? No! Would I punch a woman in real life? No! Its just a video game, maybe violent video games just aren't your thing invincible hero. I'd hate to see you play Grand Theft Auto!!

[Eddo36]

If that choice to punch the reporter bothers you so much, then simply don't do it. That's why it's a choice.

Modifié par Eddo36, 18 janvier 2011 - 06:19 .

[JuicElawl]

normally i dont advocate men hitting women. BUT, if i was a guy who saved the galaxy as we know it, i've risked my life multiple times for everyone's safety, and this dumb **** of woman WILL NOT STOP publicly slandering and demeaning me and everything i've done....

yea, i think i'd have to smack a **** if she met me face to face and wouldn't stop haranguing me.

Modifié par JuicElawl, 18 janvier 2011 - 09:58 .