238 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

cdzander wrote...

Lol. After playing through both ME and ME2, Cmdr. Shepard has killed hundreds of people, and that's not even counting Geth, Collectors, Husks, Varren, and any other assorted things that aren't people.  Asari, Batarians, Krogan, Humans, Turians, Vorcha, and Salarians die in droves around him or her.

All that death, and punching one annoying reporter bothers you?

Hey, she'll live. A lot more than I can say for just about everything else that ends up on Shepard's bad side.

There is a difference between armed people/aliens/obstacle trying to kill Shepard to keep him from either mini-goals or his big quest to save the galaxy. This is done for a good reason and self-defense as well. Yeah he goes looking for trouble sometimes but the 'people" that get wasted are often scum and deserving.

Tell me how a defenseless human female reporter fits any criteria or gets Shepard anywhere towards any goal he needs to accomplish in order to save the galaxy. There is not one thing to justify it other than satisfying an angry Shepard, but in doing so makes you look far worse harming your mission.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:27 .

[Il Divo]

InvincibleHero wrote...

There is a difference between armed people/aliens/obstacle trying to kill Shepard to keep him from either mini-goals or his big quest to save the galaxy. This is done for a good reason and self-defense as well. Yeah he goes looking for trouble sometimes but the 'people" that get wasted are often scum and deserving.

And they're often innocent and involve mitigating circumstances. The colonists on Feros were effectively being mind controlled by the Thorian. Shiala was following orders and Matriarch Benezia. There are plenty of instances in Mass Effect where Shepard does what he wants, irrespective of whom it may cost. It's actually shame because I place more faith in the humanity of the Feros colonists than I do in Al-Jilani, yet I was forced to execute them while she's still walking around.  

tell me how a defenseless human female reporter fits any cruiteria or gets Shepard anywhere towards any goal he needs to save the galaxy. There is not one thing to justify it other than satisfying an angry Shepard but in doing so makes you look far worse harming your mission.

Most renegade options when dealing with the average person are gratuitous. Shepard doesn't need to push a mercenary off the balcony of a tall building, but it's done anyway. Al Jilani was a ****** and is clearly the type to hide behind her sex while making baseless accusations. If you honestly think this is the worst done in a Bioware game, you might want to go play Kotor and Jade Empire.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:22 .

[InvincibleHero]

James2912 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

James2912 wrote...

The point is its a renegade option, renegade Shep is not a nice guy, it would be unrealistic if renegade shep was a gentleman!

Even a renegade would not act that stupidly. Punching a female reporter live on camera come on. If his temper was that great, he would not have even made it through cadet traing let alone be considered the pinacle of Alliance training.

People change. The 18 year old cadet is not the same person as the 29/31 year old killing machine. One has seen violence perpetrated against them and the other has killed hundreds if not thousands of people.

I'm thinking any person's shepard should be suffering from PTSD right about now. That has a way of shortening one's fuse.

Very true!
Also we have to realize this is just a video game! Would I kill people in real life? No, not unless lives were threatened. Would I walk around as a red eyed **** in real life? No! Would I punch a woman in real life? No! Its just a video game, maybe violent video games just aren't your thing invincible hero. I'd hate to see you play Grand Theft Auto!!

I don't deplore violence in games. I have slain millions in all the videogames I have played. IT always has a goal in mind be it a quest or just putting down a bad guy. I do a few renegade playthroughs in ME as well. I always do the vil side in games like NWN and BG and any RPG I've played. There is always a motivation or something you get out of it. Robbing an old woman gets you gold coins but punching al-Jilani nets you nothing. It is very forced. In fact, it damages Shepards reputation which even a renegade is going to be aware of. There is no reason and no gain for doing it. hence poinless and thereby gratuitous.

Never played GTA but ironically it has a wanted system in it that actually somewhat punishes the bad guys even if the cops prove ultimately ineffective. Most games have no consequence for evil actions which ME definitely falls into for the most part.

[InvincibleHero]

Xeranx wrote...

[I'm going to repeat myself:

by the time that shot is fired you already have his attention so there's no need to fire the shot.  He isn't waving a gun around threatening to blow anyone away before or after you approach him.  You're talking to him and the dialogue doesn't involve screaming or hostile action until you decide to hit him or shoot at his foot which is more likely to cause a panic.

So, again, I ask for what context justifies firing a round at Conrad?

And I will ask the question again since you try to hide from it.  What would your response be if Al-Jilani was in Conrad's position and Conrad was in Al-jilani's position and both scenarios played out the exact same way?

Not avoiding it just tired of explaining it half a dozen different ways because you won't accept any explanation.

He is still considered armed and dangerous and a surprise attack totally disarms him and defuses the situation.
No matter what Shepard does to Verner on Omega it is legal ie no consequences. It has no way of negatively impacting the mission to save everyone from the collectors.

I still would be against the striking the reporter who is now Verner which is still gratutitous violence, but a little more morally acceptable to me. I still would, not pick the action in game or real life. 

I would likewise be Ok with shooting al-Jilani in the foot if she was armed, and had the same history as Verner did and was doing the same thing.

That being said it is not the best way to handle the situation, but it gets results and is plausible and justifiable within the context of the game.

[Cheese Elemental]

Sounds like you're concerned about sexism.



Well, Mr. Moral Guardian, we're not the ones discriminating between sexes here. I'd just as happily smack a male tabloid scumbag in the face.

[InvincibleHero]

Hathur wrote...

Renegade Shepard is a jackass, cruel bastard and downright awful human being.... so he's just doing what Renegade Shepard does.. shouldn't have performed the Renegade interrupt if you weren't willing to accept an uncivil act.

Renegade Shep is not meant to be a likeable / nice person... in ME1, he's a Xenophobe and frequent murderer (shoots/murders several defeated, unarmed combatants and civilians)... In ME2, he's still a trigger-happy murderer who treats his own allies like garbage quite often.

I fail to see how you can blame the game for this outcome.... time and again, Renegade actions show... "Renegade Shep is a bad, bad man" .... and you're upset when he slugs a woman in the face just because she's being an annoying, rude witch? He does infinitely worse things than this.

Sounds like you need to play as a Paragade or Paragon... Renegade doesn't sound like the character you want.

I am saying in makes no sense even among all the other actions you can perform as a renegade. Can you truly justify it and prove it benefits Shepard and his mission in some way by slugging al-Jilani. I'd say no but let's hear something. No one has offered anything as yet to explain how that would be in character.

Nope I play full renegades just fine. Note I don;t always choose the renegade option as Wrex and Legion are quite happy for. When i play full paragon I still do some thing renegade. I choose what makes the most sense or the outcome I want.

[InvincibleHero]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dude, what makes hitting a woman different than hitting a man? Think about that for a second and try and find the root of that stigma.

You know what it is? It's the perception that women are incapable of defending themselves, which is sexist. 

So men and women are equal physically? Not by a long shot. 

Many men cannot defend themselves adequately yet the size and strength advantage still remains. I never said women couldn't but in game al-Jilani cannot adequately protect herself from a femshep let alone a male one.

It is equally unfair for someone like the Undertaker to hit a 150 lb man as it is for an average man to hit an average woman. 

[InvincibleHero]

didymos1120 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Male Shepard not cannon hmm. Why is he on both game boxes? .

Still don't understand what canon means I see. 

So we are to ignore things they provide that infer Shepard is male. Funny thing is in the thread about who to play CS in a movie no one I can recall suggested a woman. Would you bet your life that CS is female? Nope neither would I. Just because they don't come out in printed word saying CS is male or female, does not make all their marketing invalid.

Would you be angry if you saw a hot female on the box say Lara Croft and find out you as Tomb Raider is a 40 year old male in a beret. it would anger many because it is a misrepresentation.

It was neat in theory what they attempted, but makes no sense. If they made him canon male why can't they play as a female like any other game where you can choose avatars.

I tend to think canon is anything they provide you. Visual is the same value as printed words. Well we have the cliche a picture is worth a 1000 words but that is digressing.  After all the game is made by BW and they proudly stamp in on the box.

[SandTrout]

People that receive inordinate amounts of media attention (IE: Celebrities) are well known to have punched or otherwise assaulted intrusive and insulting journalists (IE: paparazzi). This is something that happens fairly frequently in real life, and can hardly be considered 'Totally gratuitous violence'. It is a reaction from a person who is short tempered and overly familiar with using violence to solve a problem (IE: A special operator who's still technically on mission). It's a possible action that can be in-character for Shepard depending on how you play him/her.

The problem here does not seem to be the game or even the part of the game that you're referring to, but your own understanding of the word 'gratuitous', the culture that the game came from, and the culture of the target audience.

You also seem to have a misinterpretation of the meaning of the word 'canon'. Canon is the 'hard facts' of the fictional universe in question that can be used as the 'true' history of the storyline. It is only particularly relevant if one is creating their own work of fiction in that universe or attempting to interpret the many stories within it. For this reason, only certain major events in the game are considered actual canon for the purposes of extending the story of ME. Shepard's gender, appearance, background, and behavior are all highly dependent on the player, and therefore cannot be used as a basis for expanding the fiction of ME outside of the games.

Male Shepard is the 'Face' of ME for marketing purposes only. This is because the majority of the target audience is male, and the game is designed so that you identify closely with the main character. Effective marketing would be difficult if even so much as the protagonist's gender could not be revealed. However, the canon of ME is extremely vague regarding Shepard so that those playing the game do not feel that there is a specific story line that they are supposed to follow in order for the story to make sense. Every person is allowed to have their own version of the specific events chronicled through the games, which means that no one's, and everyone's, choices are canon.

I don't really expect any of these arguments to change your mind because of the type of personality that you have, as revealed by your posts in this thread. You're stubborn to the point where everyone needs to see things exactly as you do without you yourself ever trying to understand why people see things differently. You're trying to force everyone into your perspective while at the same time making no allowances. To be perfectly frank, and I do not intend this as a flame, this makes you come off as a pompous fool to the majority of people in the forum.

[didymos1120]

InvincibleHero wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Male Shepard not cannon hmm. Why is he on both game boxes? .

Still don't understand what canon means I see. 

<snip bunch of irrelevant stuff about Lara Croft and the currently non-existent ME movie>

I tend to think canon is anything they provide you. Visual is the same value as printed words. Well we have the cliche a picture is worth a 1000 words but that is digressing.  After all the game is made by BW and they proudly stamp in on the box.

Still don't understand what canon means I see.

[Sajuro]

InvincibleHero wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Male Shepard not cannon hmm. Why is he on both game boxes? .

Still don't understand what canon means I see. 

So we are to ignore things they provide that infer Shepard is male. Funny thing is in the thread about who to play CS in a movie no one I can recall suggested a woman. Would you bet your life that CS is female? Nope neither would I. Just because they don't come out in printed word saying CS is male or female, does not make all their marketing invalid.

Would you be angry if you saw a hot female on the box say Lara Croft and find out you as Tomb Raider is a 40 year old male in a beret. it would anger many because it is a misrepresentation.

It was neat in theory what they attempted, but makes no sense. If they made him canon male why can't they play as a female like any other game where you can choose avatars.

I tend to think canon is anything they provide you. Visual is the same value as printed words. Well we have the cliche a picture is worth a 1000 words but that is digressing.  After all the game is made by BW and they proudly stamp in on the box.

Every game is the person's own canon shepard. The movie probably wouldn't have Shepard in it and they use Sheploo just to give you a sense of who the main character is instead of having some faceless entity.

[volus4life]

dont talk sh*t about someone, and not expect repercussions. especially if you're trying to turn the opinion of an entire galaxy against someone.

[InvincibleHero]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
Snip

I refer you to my previous post about sexism.

Also, male Shepard being the sole portion of the marketing is not sexist, it's marketing period. Statistically, more males play the game than females.

Notice how they use Sheploo in said marketing even though hardly anybody I know uses it in their games. Besides the obvious Rape faces he often wears, many people find him unattractive. Does that mean Bioware is prejudiced for using Sheploo in their marketing? No, it doesn't, it just means that they had to choose a face.

Why did they? Showing the N7 emblem on the cover with Liara would have sold it just as well. They could have went any of the directions. As for modelling gameplay they could have used female and male equally. They could have also dispensed with the Shepard name. It doesn't seem a happy medium to define most of the character and leave a few tid bits then say hey it's your Shepard. We're going to use the male, but it's not the real Shepard yours is. Really a few background choices and class and he's mine.  Oh yeah you can change the face and all which is a necessary feature these days if you want to claim RPG. 

I am perfectly fine with playing as Link, or Spider-man or Duke Nukem. If they wanted to design Shepard like they did and just use that I would have been fine with it. if they chose the female default it wouldn't matter either. I have played Lara croft games among others. A great game sells itself. (Most of the time).

[Inquisitor Recon]

Is this still being argued? It's not about hitting women. It's about hitting snobbish, arrogant, reporters who try to paint you in the worst light possible no matter what you do. Just imagine your punching Keith Olbermann or the reporter/anchorman of your choice.



I'm sure you have a local reporter or anchorman you want to punch, one who acts like a total dick and thinks everyone else is a bunch of filthy peasants, every city has one.

[volus4life]

ReconTeam wrote...

Is this still being argued? It's not about hitting women. It's about hitting snobbish, arrogant, reporters who try to paint you in the worst light possible no matter what you do. Just imagine your punching Keith Olbermann or the reporter/anchorman of your choice.

I'm sure you have a local reporter or anchorman you want to punch, one who acts like a total dick and thinks everyone else is a bunch of filthy peasants, every city has one.

it's not a local reporter thing, it's a galactical reporter thing lol. she's trying to smear you in the galaxy.

if its some chick calling u a beeeyotch at a bar, whatever, just walk away.

if its some chick trying to undermine everything you've done to save the galaxy and make YOU out to be the bad gay, try to reason with her (as shep did in ME2). then if she keeps harping, punch her.

[Sajuro]

 But really, since it is a choice for everyone to make. If you want to hit her Invincible hit her, if you don't then don't do it and she only gets hit by other aliens so you can get up on dat soapbox on the citadel. I think that the whole refinery level was entirely unneeded but I chose to play it.

[InvincibleHero]

Il Divo wrote...

No, I can't say I find it a big deal. When in past Bioware games I've been able to kill, pillage, and plunder entire towns, I don't see how hitting a woman (particularly like this reporter) is a big deal. It simply evolved into a running gag. Most of the 'evil/ruthless' things you can do in a Bioware game are grauitous, but if we stripped those Bioware games would be nowhere near as fun.

I have no problem with any of their past games. You take on a nameless character you create. Shepard is given a persona that of a military trained leader. It just isn't something that should happen. I truly feel it was put in for shock value only. If I'm playing a CE drow fighter it would fit with the character hating humans and being utterly evil, with Shepard it makes no sense.

[Sajuro]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

No, I can't say I find it a big deal. When in past Bioware games I've been able to kill, pillage, and plunder entire towns, I don't see how hitting a woman (particularly like this reporter) is a big deal. It simply evolved into a running gag. Most of the 'evil/ruthless' things you can do in a Bioware game are grauitous, but if we stripped those Bioware games would be nowhere near as fun.

I have no problem with any of their past games. You take on a nameless character you create. Shepard is given a persona that of a military trained leader. It just isn't something that should happen. I truly feel it was put in for shock value only. If I'm playing a CE drow fighter it would fit with the character hating humans and being utterly evil, with Shepard it makes no sense.

Except that you were basically the Chosen One in every bioware game and still doing brutal things.

[didymos1120]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I have no problem with any of their past games. You take on a nameless character you create. Shepard is given a persona that of a military trained leader. It just isn't something that should happen.

But it nonetheless does, regardless of what you personally think "should" happen:

I truly feel it was put in for shock value only.

No, it was put in for it's over-the-top comedic value.  Which is how practically everyone managed to take it.

[InvincibleHero]

Sajuro wrote...

Two words: Ad Sheploo

Shepard hasn't seen every admiral in the Alliance Navy, he's seen only two tops (Hackette and Anderson) this doesn't mean there are only two admirals, just that those are the only ones Shepard has interacted with. The male ambassador was probably so a rival camp wouldn't try to get at a femal wandering outside of the female camp, and the leader of the camp, she is said to be very influential given her position. Think about being part of a warrior race, would you rather be fighting/hunting, or taking messages between the two camps?

True but the game has yet to reveal any female admirals. We cannot speculate anything.

Not the ambassador the other one Nakamor? was it standing by the galactic news beacon. It is directly stated by him and the two krogan talking about kids by the doors that the women and children are kept away from the males. Whether that is just Urdnot or all clans isn't conclusive.

[InvincibleHero]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

No, I can't say I find it a big deal. When in past Bioware games I've been able to kill, pillage, and plunder entire towns, I don't see how hitting a woman (particularly like this reporter) is a big deal. It simply evolved into a running gag. Most of the 'evil/ruthless' things you can do in a Bioware game are grauitous, but if we stripped those Bioware games would be nowhere near as fun.

Everything you do in any action game is gratuitous. That's why violence is so prevalent in them. People enjoy it. Granted, ME2 is hardly Postal, but still. You do things that you normally wouldn't, usually, couldn't do. Escapism, and whatnot. That's not to say the focus of these games is the cold-blooded murder of hundreds, preferably thousands,

If not, EVERY encounter should be written in  a way that it's possible to convince your attackers to leave peaceably. That's not the case, and it's obvious why.

I'll say it again: Punching people for no reason is wrong. There's absolutely no need to define gender, size or military training. In real life that is. In a video game, do whatever the hell you want. No one here is Dr. Phil and will attribute it to some deep-rooted sexism and as an indication of your future occupation as a serial murderer targeting annoying news reporters. Except maybe the OP.

I highly disagree. Most violence in video games is able to be justified which is truly what gratuitous measures whether it is deserving or not. No matter what someone says it is not equal to physical violence. That is not self-defense. You are maybe thinking of explicit violence.

I never stated any of that last paragraph. I believe the whole thing of being exposed to violence makes you prone to it to be hogwash. So is your accusation which is unwarranted.

[Sajuro]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Two words: Ad Sheploo

Shepard hasn't seen every admiral in the Alliance Navy, he's seen only two tops (Hackette and Anderson) this doesn't mean there are only two admirals, just that those are the only ones Shepard has interacted with. The male ambassador was probably so a rival camp wouldn't try to get at a femal wandering outside of the female camp, and the leader of the camp, she is said to be very influential given her position. Think about being part of a warrior race, would you rather be fighting/hunting, or taking messages between the two camps?

True but the game has yet to reveal any female admirals. We cannot speculate anything.

Not the ambassador the other one Nakamor? was it standing by the galactic news beacon. It is directly stated by him and the two krogan talking about kids by the doors that the women and children are kept away from the males. Whether that is just Urdnot or all clans isn't conclusive.

Since Spacer Shep's mom is an officer in the Alliance, it would be more reasonable to assume there are than it would be to assume that there aren't.
I don't see what that has to do with anything, but Wrex had the fertile females form their own camp for protection with Urdnot, where Wrex says 'behave men or we will cut off your access to women"

[didymos1120]

Sajuro wrote...

Since Spacer Shep's mom is an officer in the Alliance, it would be more reasonable to assume there are than it would be to assume that there aren't.

For Spacer Sheps in ME2, the news mentions that Hannah Shepard turned down a promotion to Admiral. She preferred actually captaining a starship.

I don't see what that has to do with anything, but Wrex had the fertile females form their own camp for protection with Urdnot, where Wrex says 'behave men or we will cut off your access to women"

Actually, that wasn't Wrex's idea.  The krogan females had long since formed separate tribes on their own.  As far as the female clans banding together and the neutral area thing, that was actually the female Urdnot chief's idea.  Wrex just thought it was a good one. In any case, he couldn't have done much about it anyway: the females are too valuable, and that gives them a lot of power when it comes to dictating breeding terms.

[Il Divo]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I have no problem with any of their past games. You take on a nameless character you create. Shepard is given a persona that of a military trained leader. It just isn't something that should happen. I truly feel it was put in for shock value only. If I'm playing a CE drow fighter it would fit with the character hating humans and being utterly evil, with Shepard it makes no sense.

So, incredibly gratuitous violence is no longer gratuitous because it's in character for someone to do it? Revan was a Jedi, that did not stop him from enslaving the Wookies on Kashyyk. Enslaving Death's Hand and his soul is not considered excessively violent?

I don't see how your justification of other Bioware games in any way protects them any more than Mass Effect. Violence is violence. None of the dark side decisions in Kotor provide any more moral justification than punching Al-Jilani, and often they're even more excessive. Jilani at least proves to be someone asking to be punched where in Kotor, you are often attacking unprovoked innocents.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 janvier 2011 - 03:13 .

[Naughty Bear]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I picked the renegade option (left mouse) when being interviewed by Khalisa-al-Jilani and Shep just clocked her doing quite the damage to her face with blood. Male on female violence and on camera from a well-known reporter. This makes absolutely no sense.

Makes perfect sense, she wasn't in the kitchen.