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The average laptop Vs. a full power Gaming Machine


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#1
Gorath Alpha

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Created 5 months ago (in the Mass Effect 2 PC Tech Forum)

              The laptop usability situation only got worse, for YEARS

The original discussion here predated the influence of the "Netbook" class of computing devices diluting the gaming quality of the laptop / notebook offerings in the marketplace.  The upper range of Netbooks was already close to an overlap in performance with the low-price mobile PCs, when the last major rewrite of this article was fresh, and many manufacturers were choosing to keep on using older, lower-priced chipsets in their laptops to keep their laptops' costs down.

Netbooks' video devices have heretofore all strictly ben onboard chips, and five or six months ago, almost all were using the outdated IGPs that Intel first offered about five years ago.   Too many current laptops with Intel chipsets are still using the same old-model IGPs that those netbooks do.  Within the last three years, Intel had finally started to include most of the features and functions that ATI and nVIDIA had been including in IGPs for the past 8-10 years.   Not that any of the IGPs from any of the three have truly been game-capable, just that it was possible to at least "preview" what a game might look like on such a chip.

The influence of $200-300 Netbooks extends also to causing a reduction in the numbers of laptops that would have included an actual, discrete, video card instead of an onboard video chip, because that adds quite a bit to the cost of a laptop, and the average cost of those offered has been lowered generally.  There are fewer laptops available for purchase that have real video cards in them. The top end of the smaller-sized laptops, the "notebook" models, are the ones being bypassed by the buyers of various "tablet" devices similar to the Apple product.

Cost-cutting has also affected the cooling capacity of those laptops that really do have video cards, but now many more of them get hot too quickly because the heat sinks are too small, and the cooling fans are too ineffectual.  Admittedly, there had already been a tendency on the part of laptop designers to shortchange the heat sink hardware, because it adds to the weight of the PC, and laptop designers are devoted to the gods of light weight and long battery life, both being elements heavily impacted by high performance add-on video cards.

The engineers at nVIDIA have been considering the Netbook and Smartphone devices as a better place for them to compete in than the general PC market, where AMD has a serious advantage in being able to integrate GPUs inside of the designs of their coming "Fusion" line of CPUs.  Their influence, if they earn a sizable share of the video in those markets, can only be good.  Almost anything other than what Intel has been doing nearly has to be better. 

That isn't to say that Intel has been going backward graphically, but their low standard has been legendary, and any improvement at all is noticed.  Over the past year, many of their i3 / i5 video chip systems have been able to perform almost as well as the AMD / nVIDIA onboard graphics currently available, but right at this moment, the Geforce Mobile generation of Fermi GPUs is setting some amazing standards (although demanding better cooling than ever before).

AMD (was expected to have been) will soon be releasing Mobile versions of their "Fusion" series (Feb, 2011), which should be extremely helpful to improving the laptop standards.  Intel has a new processor family they call "Sandy Bridge" in the wings, due out about the same time, or slightly before, the release of the AMD Fusion.  Instead of merely being a separate video chip riding inside the CPU package, it will be at least basically itegrated into their CPU, sharing the cache.  It promises to be as fast as the current AMD onboard chip, the HD 4200, but AMD was expected to have already replaced that one before then (HD 6200). 
 
If all laptop makers adhered to the very same performance standards for add-on video, game developers would be more inclined to consider offering tech support to the laptop PCs,  but each laptop designer seems to have his (or her) own standards for what level of performance degradation he / she will will apply in the name of battery life or total weight.  Compared to the ATI and nVIDIA reference designs, too few even follow the (typically 10 % reduction in performance compared to the matching desktop card version) recommended specifications.  The end result is variations of 10% more performance loss, to as much as a total of 30% dilution.
   
The potential improvements remain just potential.  Intel's laptop chipsets are cheap, familiar, and the average laptop buyer really doesn't care to pay extra for good video, so at least 95% of them have nothing better than an Intel video chip in them, making that 95% segment undesireable choices for game playing.

Intel's Sandy Bridge was also showing its previews, with the same basic low quality Intel video that's now riding along piggy back inside the processor package of the i3, i5, and i7, being entirely integrated in the next series of CPUs.  But "Fusion" was practically already here (the "Brazos" series of Netbook / Sub-notebook small portables' APUs were all we actually got to see last February after all -- per my June, 2011 edit here).

The AMD device combines a far more capable graphics power, closely related to the Radeon HD 5n00 generation as an integrated function to their multi-core CPU, and the mobile versions were supposed to have already been in the (figurative) hands of Netbook, Notebook, and laptop manufacturers, with the PCs using them expected about the end of January or even sooner (it didn't happen).  The desktop Fusion APUs were expected in late February (that didn't either).

P. S. Although the Sandy Bridge's video has far fewer pixel shader units than the bottom-most Radeon business graphics card, it will be running almost fast enough to make up for that weakness, if nice looking images aren't as important as relative animation smoothness.  Tests performed by Anand Tech's reviewers place the Sandy Bridge's mobile graphics at that speed now, although it still is too slow overall for either of The Mass Effect games (the bad SATA circuitry in Intel's matching chipsets really put a detour into Intel's plans).

Gorath

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Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 21 juin 2011 - 09:54 .


#2
BomimoDK

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So... Netbooks suck? was that it?

#3
Gorath Alpha

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Sarevok77Anchev wrote...

My game is crashing immediately after startup

Operating System: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit (6.1, Build 7600) (7600.win7_gdr.100618-1621)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: TOSHIBA
System Model: Satellite L505
BIOS: InsydeH2O Version 1.50
Processor: Pentium® Dual-Core CPU       T4400  @ 2.20GHz (2 CPUs), ~2.2GHz
Memory: 3072MB RAM
Available OS Memory: 2940MB RAM
Page File: 1552MB used, 4325MB available

Card name: Mobile Intel® 4 Series Express Chipset Family
Manufacturer: Intel Corporation
Chip type: Mobile Intel® 4 Series Express Chipset Family

No.  This (the quote above) is what it's all about.

Intel's chipset video chips have been produced in a wide variety lately, however, until about three, I think, years ago, all of them lacked several very basic functions that gaming CARDS began featuring ten or twelve years ago, after nVIDIA's first "Riva" cards arrived on the scene, when they included a Textures and Lighting unit internally.

Even when the Intel 3100X Chipset chip appeared, it took Intel eighteen months or so to activate all its functions in drivers.  And many of the producers of laptops in particular, have continued buying the older and less expensive chipset pair instead, so that brand new mobile computer devices still have the same stone age video (and the Atom has not been matched up to any recent Intel video chips, so Netbooks have remained in the same primitive state).

When the "i" series of Intel Core Duo Multicore CPUs began to appear, they had an upgraded version of the very latest chipset chip riding along piggyback inside of the processor's packaging, where it shared some of the large RAM cache, and for the first time in all history, was competitive in raw speed with Chipset chips from real graphics engineers at AMD and nVIDIA.  That does not mean the i-CPUs can be used for gaming without truly HUGE compromises, however, as is also true of the AMD and nVIDIA Chipset video chips.

With Sandy Bridge, most of the improvement has gone into the actual CPU side, where some 10-20% of added efficiency has been achieved.  However, instead of merely being a separate device riding along, the video support in Sandy Bridge is supposed to have been fully integrated into CPU functioning, giving it new advantages it didn't have while piggy-backing (it's still essentially the same relatively crude video device, however).

Therefore, this does *NOT* mean it is a game-capable option, unless the game settings are seriously crippled to allow it to be used.  According Anand Tech's tests, it is as fast for some things as the Radeon HD 4200 / 4250 pair of Chipset video chips that formerly held the top rank among the onboard video crowd, and even matches AMD's least capable HD 5n00 real card (a poor card for certain), the 5450, on some benchmarks.

The biggest news out of CES for game players (IMO) is that Microsoft will support ARM, and that nVIDIA is building its own ARM processor, so it won't be left behind by AMD's Fusion (which blows past Sandy Bridge, with better battery life, less waste heat, and better video graphics).

Gorath

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:02 .


#4
flyingfalcon

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Why do you say sandy bridge is too slow for the Mass Effect games or that the settings have to be crippled?
The anantech article showed sandy bridge playing Mass Effect 2 at 1366x768 and high settings at 30 FPS.

#5
SSV Enterprise

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What Anandtech article?

#6
flyingfalcon

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http://www.anandtech...ile-landscape/5

#7
SSV Enterprise

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Doesn't say anything about having high settings. Also note that the CPU used was a very high-end one which could boost the abilities of the Sandy Bridge GPU, and most people settling for integrated graphics for gaming will not get such a good CPU.

#8
flyingfalcon

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So flip to the next page.
They tested on the lowest end Macbook pro also, much slower CPU and slightly slower graphics, went from
Mass Effect 2, 1366x768, high settings, 30 FPS average, to down to 25 FPS average.
http://www.anandtech...sandy-bridge/19
That's kind of weird also since the screen is a 1280x800.
Certainly the lowest end Macbook pro isn't for serious gaming then, but can play games.
Takes a while though for IGPs and everything, but I'd say they're getting to an interesting point.

Modifié par flyingfalcon, 11 mars 2011 - 02:28 .


#9
termokanden

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My laptop is running ME2 fine at 1920x1080. It wasn't all that expensive either. At home I plug my laptop into my TV. I have a desktop PC too, but my laptop is much quieter.

#10
tom.trog69

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No offense, those taking issue with Gorath's OP, but s/he's absolutely spot on. Just take a look at any of the websites for Fallout 3, DA, ME, etc. and see the countless questions about their laptop not being able to play those games. It's always going to fall on the integrated graphics issue. This is something that most people wouldn't know about unless they saw posts on this issue before they buy.

#11
flyingfalcon

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Fallout 3 just needs a cracked file to run, DA just seems to run on IGPs, ME runs on them with the latest drivers. People out there have been testing them a lot and putting up fixes and talking about it and offering help.
Of course, can't say for sure the games will work, but if they've gotten all five games to run on the X3100 and Mass Effect failed to run on my 5850, anything is possible. Depends on the exact system also, there's a big variety of IGPs.
Sandy Bridge is the fastest and best supported Intel one obviously, he said you had to cripple the settings to run Mass Effect 2 but depending on the laptop you might be able to play at highest settings.

#12
Gorath Alpha

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There were originally a pair of specific points addressed, and problems at both of the Fabs trying to follow Intel's lead into 32 nm wafers put a big crimp into one of those.  The most important is related to the CHEAPENING trend among notebook sized laptops, choosing the much older, and less expensive, of Intel's chipsets instead of more recent ones, and thereby lowering the average graphics level. 

The other point was that AMD expects to crack Intel's hold on the NetBook / NetTop extra small portables, by offering better graphics than Intel does (and the nVIDIA challenge to Intel is that there is no Smartphone or Tablet competition from Intel at all, which they want to crack with their own version of an ARM).  I wrote the message at the turn of the year, when the AMD Fusion "APU" chips were supposed to be only a couple of weeks from release, but only the NetBook ones came out after all, and missed the release date I'd written about. 

I didn't anticipate that Intel would get into such a rush that their chipset would drop half of the SATA capability from their Sandy Bridge chipsets. 

#13
Gorath Alpha

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Onboard Chipset video chips will remain unsupported, although the AMD "Llano" level of Fusion APUs are now available. Those are not intended as processors for gaming machines. The included GPU functions are still only analogous to a discrete HD 6450 (blows Sandy Bridge away, but isn't really beyond the Business Graphics Low End level yet). The next Fusions coming may have the code name "Trinity", and may be available in the fall.

#14
Just-Me

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What he was writing about, the Trinity, has only been named as being offered for laptops, so far, but the "FX" CPU that's supposed to have been included isn't fully X86 compatible, and ME-1 or the engine underlying it, won't run properly on the FXes. Intel has had a follow-on to Sandy Bridge, which didn't bring Intel graphics fully into the 21st century, not yet (Ivy Bridge). Whatever their *NEXT* "bridge" is, it may finally be the product they've been claiming they had, ever since their 3000 was such an overblown empty bag of nothing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haswell_%28microarchitecture%29

Meanwhile, the Trilogy will probably stir up interest in the stand-alone ME-1 and ME-2, among assorted Intel video chip owners, and those video devices just don't work "correctly" in these games.

Modifié par Just-Me, 26 septembre 2012 - 10:14 .