243 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

I'm thrilled with the faster combat, not so much with the overall aesthetic choices. As many times as people say its not hack and slash, they've sure gone out of their way to mimic the look of it.

I'm almost sure Mike Laidlaw has even said he'd take that as a compliment, as that was intentional.  But I don't want to speak for him without a link. 

Atakuma wrote...

I think that's the point. They did it to trick the console peasants players.

A cynic would say they're trying to trick them into buying it.  An optimist would say they're trying to trick them into liking it.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:09 .

[crimzontearz]

looks, as long as my character does not take a full 5 seconds to shuffle and 3 seconds to swing allowing the enemy I was trying to intercept to freaking pass by and not only avoid being hit but also hitting whatever I was trying to protect I'll be glad

[Enshaid]

Atakuma wrote...
I think that's the point. They did it to trick the console peasants players.

Thems fightin' words mouse-wielding scum!
*draws lightsaber*

[Atakuma]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

I think that's the point. They did it to trick the console peasants players.

A cynic would say they're trying to trick them into buying it.  An optimist would say they're trying to trick them into liking it.  

Indeed

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

A cynic would say they're trying to trick them into buying it.  An optimist would say they're trying to trick them into liking it.  

A realist would say they're catering to them. Well, I've pissed off enough people tonight.  Outa here.

[Obadiah]

Saw the combat animation here , and I think they look twitchy and fake. Not sure why BW decided to include action RPG type animations.

Brockololly wrote...
Mages looking over the top and magical is
fine. Its just that the warriors and rogues look too floaty and
weightless now and lack any heft and sense of "oomph" behind any of
their attacks when they're moving so fast. DA2's combat look just looks
like its trying too hard to look "cool" and as a result looks entirely
derivative of every other dime a dozen action game out there. And not
even a good action game like Arkham Asylum but more ho-hum ones.

This.

Modifié par Obadiah, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:21 .

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...
A realist would say they're catering to them.

Sure they would.  

Actually I'm guessing a realist probably wouldn't concern themselves with unknowable motives.   Except possibly to state that they are, in fact, unknowable - and possibly irrelevant.  

Obadiah wrote...

Not sure why BW decided to include action RPG type animations.

I imagine because they like them and think they're better.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:17 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Im not feelling so hot on it right now. I think it needs lto be like 100% faster with about 150% more flips. Also Hawke needs to jump more during combat.

But on a good note, friendly fire disabled? awesome! My own characters were always getting in the way of my careless firestorm spamming. Its so great that all i have to do is push a button to make awesome happen, before I had to like use tactics and sh!t, i mean who has got time to learn how to play, pfff not me.

[upsettingshorts]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Im not feelling so hot on it right now. I think it needs lto be like 100% faster with about 150% more flips. Also Hawke needs to jump more during combat.
But on a good note, friendly fire disabled? awesome! My own characters were always getting in the way of my careless firestorm spamming. Its so great that all i have to do is push a button to make awesome happen, before I had to like use tactics and sh!t, i mean who has got time to learn how to play, pfff not me.

I disagree.  I think it would be much more realistic if Hawke and his comrades only executed 1-2 basic attack animations, and when they really hit the enemy hard they would explode into a fountain of blood and cause the entire screen to shake.  That would show me how my tactics worked really well and I truly mastered the game.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:18 .

[Thetribeman]

Brokolloly wrote
When rogues and warriors have all these crazy auras and effects going on and moving at the speed of light, its hard for me to buy into the fact that the world is supposedly some low magic setting. Sure there is always a disconnect between gameplay and having a certain amount of stylization in combat, but it just seems like DA2 is going further down the over the top route Awakening started down rather than Origins. And like you said, having the combat look so over the top doesn't do much to make DA2 stand out in my view, but rather blend in with every other over the top action game.

Who ever said it was supposed to a low magic setting? This game is made in the spirit of the forgotten realms series. Not saying it's completely derivitive, mind you. Just in the same spirit. Besides the entire first game was all about magic. And the crazy auras? Dude with lelianna's bard buffs, the two hander warrior buffs, threaten buff, practically walking christmas trees. And this was taken to an extreme in DAA. I do think that "shuffling"
was most something experienced by console players though, as I noticed alot of it, it never deterred me but it wasn't exactly easy on the eyes. But on the flip side of that coin, I don't want to see every enemy ripped apart by giant cross-dimensional hands, or every enemy be decapitated with blood spurting from every possible orifice.
         As for the general flashiness, I always imagined my characters doing cool **** anyways...lol. Now i just get to see it happen. The warden didn't act like the almighty badass that he was. We may have felt like he was. But the animations were pretty bleh. Now we see it in action. Is that so bad???

[Obadiah]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Not sure why BW decided to include action RPG type animations.

I imagine because they like them and think they're better.

...more like they're following the recommendations of some focus group.

[hexaligned]

MerinTB wrote...

I'm gonna watch hard this next playthrough (which should be fairly soon - almost done with the original DoW series) for this "shuffling" I keep reading about. After 3 1/2 plays, an aggregate of well over 300 hours of gametime... I never once remember thinking "they are moving too slow" or "look, shuffling!"

Over 300 hours of playing - I didn't feel the need for combat fixes really at all. Character building fixes, ability tree fixes, economy fixes, inventory fixes, sure... but combat I was quite fine with. Enjoyed, even.

But, as I said, I'll watch extra close this next time for "shuffling."

I hear ya.  I 'm attempting another play through atm (my fourth) just so I have a savegame to import for DA2.  I've never noticed any "shuffling"  and combat speed in DAO looks fine to me.  If anthing rogues already look a bit over the top with things like haste or momentum going.  I alread know just from watching previews I'm not going to use a rogue in my party for DA2, I'd just be laughing the whole time, and not in a nice way.

[Atakuma]

Obadiah wrote...

...more like they're following the recommendations of some focus group.

Maybe, but we'll never know.

[Obadiah]

Thetribeman wrote...
 And the crazy auras? Dude with lelianna's bard buffs, the two hander warrior buffs, threaten buff, practically walking christmas trees.

Heh, multiple auras caused my Arcane Warrior playthrough to crash SO MANY times...

I thought it was a low magic setting though, since magic appeared to be actively distrusted in Ferelden. Your PC just happened to be in the open-minded minority.

[drahelvete]

Thetribeman wrote...

Who ever said it was supposed to a low magic setting? This game is made in the spirit of the forgotten realms series.

The devs did, a couple of years back. At least that it would be low in comparison to such settings as the Forgotten Realms... which I guess it is.

Modifié par drahelvete, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:41 .

[Thetribeman]

How so? You cant walk ten feet in this game without tripping over a magic rock or a special item, that somehow makes you stronger. And I'm not complaining about that. I like that. It's what makes a fantasy game a fantasy game. Maybe it is a low magic setting in comparison to idk a drizzt novel, but exactly how is DA2 going to be different in this particular aspect? From what we've been shown there is simply no evidence to suggest that the sequel will be more...magicky.

[MerinTB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

But, as I said, I'll watch extra close this next time for "shuffling."

A common and easy to look for example that the developers themselves have cited is Shield Bash.

Use it on an enemy, then instruct the character to follow up on that strike.  By the time the character has struck a follow up blow, the enemy is back up again.

I always had someone with a shield in my party.  And I shield-bashed like crazy.  I was quite satisfied with the results.

*shrug*

Where some people lamented "I activate an ability but then had to wait" as in "my mage started casting a powerful spell but, being a powerful spell, it took longer to cast and therefore it didn't hit the enemy right where I targeted" and "I activated my powerful archery ability but my stupid archer had the gall to AIM and line up his shot for a few moments before releasing" -
I took that as the cost of those abilities, and tactically I adjusted for how long they took to activate.  Aim the long to cast spell AHEAD of where the enemies are running (like leading fire with a gun on a moving target, eh?) - or activate any longer-to-execute ability with timing so that it hits when needed.
Is that a better or worse game mechanic than "hitting a button and something awesome happens"?  I think it's a matter of taste.  I prefer the way it was than the way it looks to be now.  Opinions vary...
but I liked bigger spells taking longer to cast and longer to recharge.  I liked the effort it took to knock someone down with a shield requiring the attacker to refind his or her bearings before being able to attack again.

If the delays on abilities were not the intent of the designers for DA:O, then it WAS a fault with the game.  If they had MEANT for spells to auto-fire, even big ones, but somehow the coding was screwed up and therefore the big spells somehow took longer, that's an issue.  I seriously doubt that was the case.

I think the DA2 dev team (at least some people, like perhaps Mr. Laidlaw) didn't like that kind of gameplay.  And probably their focus groups didn't like that kind of gameplay overall.  And those two, if true, combined to them changing it to "hit a button and something awesome happens."

It's not my preferred way to play.  I don't mind time delays on big spells.

I never once, never once for a second, had the thought cross my mind  "Alistair just knocked that guy down with his shield... why the heck hasn't he jumped on top of the guy and started wailing with his sword while the enemy was on his back?!?" - seriously.  It never crossed my mind.  And, honestly, it doesn't sound terribly appealing to me now.  Deliberate, slow, methodical combat over (IMO) fake-looking, anime-fantasy style super-ninja-dragonball combat anytime.

What is under the hood (how I control the characters) looks like it's fairly similar.  I'm glad for that.
What the combat looks like is not very similar at all.  That's (from how I interpret the marketing and many of Mr. Laidlaw's comments) what they wanted to change - how it looked, and how fast-paced it would seem.

That look?  I don't like it.  Regardless of the underlying mechanics.

---

That said, just one fan here.  My opinion is no more important than any other fan's, and I accept that I seem to be in the minority on it.
I'm also in the minority of buying Still Life (something like 250,000 copies sold worldwide?) but not buying Uncharted 2 (over 3 million I believe?) -

I really don't care what gaming aspects are preferred by more people.  I'll personally look for things that fit me best, regardless of how many "gamers" like or dislike said things.

I'll be enjoying DA2 (I expect to, anyway) despite the combat and art style as opposed to because of it, I wager at this point.

Modifié par MerinTB, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:47 .

[drahelvete]

Thetribeman wrote...

How so? You cant walk ten feet in this game without tripping over a magic rock or a special item, that somehow makes you stronger. And I'm not complaining about that. I like that. It's what makes a fantasy game a fantasy game. Maybe it is a low magic setting in comparison to idk a drizzt novel, but exactly how is DA2 going to be different in this particular aspect? From what we've been shown there is simply no evidence to suggest that the sequel will be more...magicky.

http://forums.biowar...459926&forum=84

This was back in 2005. A lot has obviously happened since then.

Still, I don't think it's fair to compare it to FR. There are no physical gods, there are no castles floating in the sky, there are no magitech-powered airships...

Modifié par drahelvete, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:55 .

[soteria]

UpsettingShorts wrote...

A cynic would say they're trying to trick them into buying it. An optimist would say they're trying to trick them into liking it.

as L'amour says in The Walking Drum, the very idea of commerce is based on the idea of selling people things they neither want nor need. Also, it's better to be a merchant than a brigand because you can only rob and kill a man once, but you can keep on cheating him indefinitely.

[upsettingshorts]

Indeed, but the underlying assumption in either case - from the hypothetical developers perspective - is different:

Trick them into buying it: If we make it look like games they like, they'll buy it and we'll get their money.
Trick them into liking it: If we make it look like games they like, they won't be so hung up over the fact it actually is "some guy in the background rolling dice" and enjoy it.

To be perfectly honest, I think they see both as a possibility, and probably view it as something of a win-win.  They may or may not have underestimated the number of traditional cRPG fans this would alienate, but that's almost a different topic (I imagine it leading to a "what is an RPG" discussion).

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:58 .

[soteria]

Well, the reason L'amour says you can go on cheating a man forever is that after selling him something he didn't want, you convince him that he likes it or that all his friends like it and he should, too.

I think there's a certain amount of tricking people into liking stuff.  It works with kids--my parents got me to start eating onions by pointing out that onions were in meatballs, and I liked those.  Since I had been eating onions all along in the first place, why not enjoy them in something else?  Here, we have the people who complain about any feature borrowed from WoW or FF or whatever other game they don't like.

Modifié par soteria, 05 janvier 2011 - 04:05 .

[upsettingshorts]

This is off topic, but I remember the same thing - or at least something very similar being covered in the documentary "The Century of the Self" which is on Google Video in its entirety.

The specific subject in question it touches on is the public relations/marketing shift that pushed consumers from needs-based purchasing to wants-based purchasing.

[Thetribeman]

drahelvete wrote...

Thetribeman wrote...

How so? You cant walk ten feet in this game without tripping over a magic rock or a special item, that somehow makes you stronger. And I'm not complaining about that. I like that. It's what makes a fantasy game a fantasy game. Maybe it is a low magic setting in comparison to idk a drizzt novel, but exactly how is DA2 going to be different in this particular aspect? From what we've been shown there is simply no evidence to suggest that the sequel will be more...magicky.

http://forums.biowar...459926&forum=84

This was back in 2005. A lot has obviously happened since then.

Still, I don't think it's fair to compare it to FR. There are no physical gods, there are no castles floating in the sky, there are no magitech-powered airships...

It is an unfair comparison when you look at it like that, I said that is was written in the same spirit...not directly derivitive. Now as far as Gaider's forum post in 2005, his words help my point. The warden isn't exactly commonfolk. Now are we still saying that DA2 looks to be more magicky than the original?

EDIT: I also have hard time wrapping my head around the idea that Bioware is alienating cRPG players by changing the animations and graphics. (The damn graphics people.)

Modifié par Thetribeman, 05 janvier 2011 - 04:08 .

[Taint Master]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

This is off topic, but I remember the same thing - or at least something very similar being covered in the documentary "The Century of the Self" which is on Google Video in its entirety.
The specific subject in question it touches on is the public relations/marketing shift that pushed consumers from needs-based purchasing to wants-based purchasing.

That's not very interesting.

[upsettingshorts]

Taint Master wrote...
That's not very interesting.

To you, maybe.  I figured it might be to someone who brought up an author's take on the psychological motivations behind commerce.

It was definitely interesting to me.  Not just for that, but for the later chapters of the documentary that cover democracy and the manufacturing of consent.