243 réponses à ce sujet

[Taint Master]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Taint Master wrote...
That's not very interesting.

To you, maybe.  I figured it might be to someone who brought up an author's take on the psychological motivations behind commerce.

It was definitely interesting to me.  Not just for that, but for the later chapters of the documentary that cover democracy and the manufacturing of consent.

Not to be rude, but that's not what the OP was about.

[upsettingshorts]

Thanks, I didn't realize that.

[soteria]

Wait, what? This isn't the thread about mercantilism and marketing? Obviously I've been coming here for the wrong reasons.

Looks like it's not working on google videos, but youtube has it. I'll take a look when I have the time.

[johannes1212]

YoziMaiden wrote...

I for one am glad in the change in direction of DA2 combat.  I was never quite fond of how silly it looked when I was playing DA:O,  all that shuffling about and those very slow combat animations.  It was just boring,  sure,  it was realistic,  but what kind of argument is that when you have sweet old lady or a snarky which thief capable of throwing lightning bolts?  Warriors and Rogues needed a little bit of flash to close the gap between them and the Mages.

As long as it is simply a rework of animation and a bit of a speed up in combat I’ll be pleased.  Do I want this to become an action game?  No.  Do I want it to look pretty and have characters doing awesome things because they are awesome?   Yes,  yes I do. 

So I for one thank the developers for the changes that I’ve seen so far.

Amen brother (to some extent), if I wanted to play a tactically deep slow-paced combat game I'd go reinstall Baldur's Gate 2 or Homeworld, but nowadays in an age with better graphics and animations, I want to see those bells and whistles at their fullest, what better way to do this than with a semi action RPG template.

Modifié par johannes1212, 05 janvier 2011 - 04:40 .

[Thetribeman]

johannes1212 wrote...

YoziMaiden wrote...

I for one am glad in the change in direction of DA2 combat.  I was never quite fond of how silly it looked when I was playing DA:O,  all that shuffling about and those very slow combat animations.  It was just boring,  sure,  it was realistic,  but what kind of argument is that when you have sweet old lady or a snarky which thief capable of throwing lightning bolts?  Warriors and Rogues needed a little bit of flash to close the gap between them and the Mages.

As long as it is simply a rework of animation and a bit of a speed up in combat I’ll be pleased.  Do I want this to become an action game?  No.  Do I want it to look pretty and have characters doing awesome things because they are awesome?   Yes,  yes I do. 

So I for one thank the developers for the changes that I’ve seen so far.

Amen brother (to some extent), if I wanted to play a tactically deep slow-paced combat game I'd go reinstall Baldur's Gate 2 or Homeworld, but nowadays in an age with better graphics and animations, I want to see those bells and whistles at their fullest, what better way to do this than with a semi action RPG template.

The awesome thing is that you can still play it tactically. The only people Bioware has alienated are those with unreasonable attachments to a slow look.

[Blobpie]

I played DA:O on the xbox and well... the recital system is clunky and slow. The new style is being developed for the console users.

And the best part is, is that you can choose to play it like the classic DA:O or the new way!

[Pwnsaur]

While combat is absolutely *not* why I play BioWare games, the combat looks okay to me. I am really only worried about it being a bit *too* sped up and giving it a silly and cartoon-like feel... For me, darker and grittier is what I'm looking for, combat included.

Modifié par Pwnsaur, 05 janvier 2011 - 05:12 .

[drahelvete]

While I agree it's a bit over the top, especially some of the flips, it still looks a lot more "realistic" than combat did in DA:O. It also looks like it could actually be fun to play. In DA:O, combat quickly became a chore, something you had to endure until you got to the next plot point.

[Matchy Pointy]

From what I've een, it seems like the combat is similar enough to DA:O, with just smoother and flashier animations, so I see it as a good thing so far.

[steven20011]

I think it is a good change,

you can still choose your attacks but with faster more "awsome" animations.

My expectations are getting higher and higher

[Seagloom]

Thetribeman wrote...

Who ever said it was supposed to a low magic setting? This game is made in the spirit of the forgotten realms series. Not saying it's completely derivitive, mind you. Just in the same spirit. Besides the entire first game was all about magic. And the crazy auras? Dude with lelianna's bard buffs, the two hander warrior buffs, threaten buff, practically walking christmas trees. And this was taken to an extreme in DAA. I do think that "shuffling"
was most something experienced by console players though, as I noticed alot of it, it never deterred me but it wasn't exactly easy on the eyes. But on the flip side of that coin, I don't want to see every enemy ripped apart by giant cross-dimensional hands, or every enemy be decapitated with blood spurting from every possible orifice.
         As for the general flashiness, I always imagined my characters doing cool **** anyways...lol. Now i just get to see it happen. The warden didn't act like the almighty badass that he was. We may have felt like he was. But the animations were pretty bleh. Now we see it in action. Is that so bad???

tl;dr - I disagree with your assessment and see your comparisons as flawed.

The lore tells us that. As I wrote in my first post, it comes across as a lower magic setting rather than low magic. I would say somewhere between high magic and low magic. You claim Origins was made in the spirit of the "Forgotten Realms". I could not disagree more. I am a total FR lore geek and love that setting, and it is about as high magic as it gets. Of the D&D settings only "Eberron" might be higher magic. The "Dragon Age" universe shuns magic rather than embracing it. Teleportation is not doable. Achieving immortality is not as trivial and uncommon. Bringing the dead back to life is all but impossible. Summoning creatures from thin air is simply not possible unless we are talking demons, and judging from Avernus's display it involves more than a few seconds of chanting and finger waggling. Casting magic at all is a draining process, with incredible displays of power requiring lyrium backup or blood magic. Even then, the most powerful spells are inherently limited in size and scope. Keeping a single risen corpse around requires a constant exertion of will. I am sure there are exceptions to all that in lore, but exceptions are not the rule. Not every mage is like Flemeth. I think you are mistaking BioWare's 'spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate' advertising for Origins with the "Forgotten Realms" setting those games took place in. BioWare was claiming Origins would be reminiscent of the "Baldur's Gate" games in richness and style of gameplay and storytelling. Comparisons made on settings were more about both games being fantasy RPGs rather than specific connections to the "Forgotten Realms". At least that was the impression I had. If I am mistaken, feel free to provide a developer quote. My memory could be totally off.

Contrast that with the "Forgotten Realms". Ressurection of the long dead is possible and occurs frequently enough that a person might pay their local priest in advance to get raised in the event of untimely death. Wizards and druids of very high levels can alter the weather of an entire region with a single spell, summon vast hordes of creatures, achieve immortality with relative ease, and teleport with the ease you or I might phone someone. A Thedas spell such as blood control is equivalent to the fifth level D&D spell, dominate person. If you pore over FR lore you will find plenty of epic or near epic level characters, wizards, and immortal beings. Magic item creation is easier and plentiful, and gods are visibly present and actively meddle in mortal affairs. Any higher magic and "Forgotten Realms" would be "Slayers".

Fourth edition D&D only made it crazier by infusing overt flash into the most bog standard warriors and thieves. I like "Exalted" because that game's entire identity revolves around how crazy it can get, but I do not want every tabletop universe to mimic it. I feel the same way about "Dragon Age". Granted, "Awakening" does overdo it with flashy displays, but at least it had the excuse of being a high level campaign. DA2 is that way from first level and already looks more excessive than "Awakening". As far as the buffs go, I always took that as bells and whistles meant to impress a player with eye candy. I doubt the red lights of threaten or pink mist of song of courage is visible to anyone in the world. Every D&D game I played so far does the same with spells that are meant to have no visuals in tabletop. Take for instance, wail of the banshee in "Neverwinter Nights". That spell is one of the best looking in the game, when in tabletop it is strictly auditory. Bloodlines was the same way with its disiciplines. Potence is not supposed to make a vampire ripple with bolts of electricity.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 janvier 2011 - 09:18 .

[TheMadCat]

From what I've seen it looks like they've gone a bit to far in the other direction of Origins. Animations have gone from simplistic and slow to over the top and comical. More flipping going on on the battlefield then in a cirque show and every action for whatever reason seems like it needs a light show to accompany it. I understand they wanted to pump it up, just seems like they ran a little to far with that goal.

[Amioran]

MerinTB wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

But, as I said, I'll watch extra close this next time for "shuffling."

A common and easy to look for example that the developers themselves have cited is Shield Bash.

Use it on an enemy, then instruct the character to follow up on that strike.  By the time the character has struck a follow up blow, the enemy is back up again.

I always had someone with a shield in my party.  And I shield-bashed like crazy.  I was quite satisfied with the results.

*shrug*

Where some people lamented "I activate an ability but then had to wait" as in "my mage started casting a powerful spell but, being a powerful spell, it took longer to cast and therefore it didn't hit the enemy right where I targeted" and "I activated my powerful archery ability but my stupid archer had the gall to AIM and line up his shot for a few moments before releasing" -
I took that as the cost of those abilities, and tactically I adjusted for how long they took to activate.  Aim the long to cast spell AHEAD of where the enemies are running (like leading fire with a gun on a moving target, eh?) - or activate any longer-to-execute ability with timing so that it hits when needed.
Is that a better or worse game mechanic than "hitting a button and something awesome happens"?  I think it's a matter of taste.  I prefer the way it was than the way it looks to be now.  Opinions vary...
but I liked bigger spells taking longer to cast and longer to recharge.  I liked the effort it took to knock someone down with a shield requiring the attacker to refind his or her bearings before being able to attack again.

You are missing the point (it's so strange this happening here). The problem was that the "wait time" was not consistent between areas, general behaviour of enemies, number of enemies, type of enemies etc. (in a word, in the context). You are talking about "planning ahead", but how can you do it when the variables aren't static?

There's no sense of effort if to reach a guy you have to wait another guy to move from your trajectory (in melee) when in other cases this doesn't happen, nor sense of effort when you are an archer and the enviornment is against you when you have to use a simple low-end talent and it never fires before others do 2-3 things (or the area is so small that the enemy is to the other end of it massacring a party member in the meantime, and probably you will either miss). It is all in the setting and the context: in a pause-every-round context (as it was Temple of Elemental Evil), the sort of "effort" you talk about can be plausible, since the wait time doesn't deter to the experience and to the immediacy of combat. It doesn't variate between classes, builds, areas, num of enemies, type of enemies etc., since everything is balanced (and made consistent) by the wait time in the end of turn. In case of real time combat, while having higher-end abilities (for balance) require more time to activate is plausible, a wait time increased in random ways by unpredictable environments variables just make what you want to do result more in "what the context happens to bring you" in the majority cases.

More, the "wait" time you are talking about was not concieved in concept, It was just a "problem" of the mechanics, a result that happened by itself. The impact event was tied on the "fire" event (not on the real impact, as to not have the problem of missing in a wrong context), and the slowness of certain animations created the issue of "shuffling" in many cases (above all for the slowest trees). So, I don't see what "effort" sense you get from waiting 4 seconds before the enemy moves so you can now wait another 2 seconds for the animation loop to end (while however the impact is already firing) so you can land the shield bash (and maybe the target is now 5 feet from you, and the impact shows in that place). I don't really get it. It can give a sense of effort only in certain occasions and/or certain areas and/or against a certain number (the lower the best) of enemies (in a word, again, in the right context). In all other cases it is just funny at best and frustrating at worst. Sure, after a while you will learn how you can "metagame" the system (learing the variables to make them less unpredictable) and know how to react to it so to "adjust" to the issue, but this will mean it is a correct approach?

And btw, just so you know, the last sentence "I liked the effort it took to knock someone down with a shield requiring the attacker to refind his or her bearings before being able to attack again" is what is happening NOW, not before, because in DAO the wait time was BEFORE the impact, not after. Now in DA2 it is the contrary, i.e. for example an archer fires immediately but then it requires some time before he can do the same again. So, you are contradicting yourself and actually liking what is happening in DA2 thinking (because you probably don't have knowledge on how it really worked behind the line, or didn't want to notice it correctly) it was how it worked in DAO, but in reality it was not so, just the contrary, in fact.

Modifié par Amioran, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:09 .

[crimzontearz]

actually, seagloom, it's called Vigor not Potence now....but I agree 100% with you...DA2 should not turn into exalted in Thedas

[drahelvete]

Seagloom wrote...

[As far as the buffs go, I always took that as bells and whistles meant to impress a player with eye candy. I doubt the red lights of threaten or pink mist of song of courage is visible to anyone in the world.

I'm pretty sure Mike (or one of the other BioWarians) said that they've fixed that in DA2. No more auras during conversation and exploration.
I think it will work like in the Annoyance Remover mods: they'll be visible for a very short time (a second or so) after activation.

Modifié par drahelvete, 05 janvier 2011 - 09:24 .

[PinkysPain]

Thetribeman wrote...
The awesome thing is that you can still play it tactically. The only people Bioware has alienated are those with unreasonable attachments to a slow look.

Oh, your camera isn't centered on the character you are controlling any more?

[Xewaka]

Matchy Pointy wrote...

From what I've een, it seems like the combat is similar enough to DA:O, with just smoother and flashier animations, so I see it as a good thing so far.

Flashier maybe. Smoother no. They just removed the middle frames in animation from swing to swing. It's more stilted than DA:O. Admittedly swings in DA:O were a bit slow, but at least they were there. Now it's just swapping poses with no animation in the middle (other than weapon trail).

[Seagloom]

crimzontearz wrote...

actually, seagloom, it's called Vigor not Potence now....but I agree 100% with you...DA2 should not turn into exalted in Thedas

Ah, I see. I was going by the VtM name since Bloodlines was based in OWoD, not Reqiuem.

drahelvete wrote...

I'm pretty sure Mike (or on of the other BioWarians) said that they've fixed that in DA2. No more auras during conversation and exploration. I think it will work like in the Annoyance Remover mods: they'll be visible for a very short time (a second or so) after activation.

Nice that they are implementing that. Do not misunderstand me, though. I had no issues with the lights in Origins and do not play with the remover mod. I like the pink mists from song of courage!  All I meant was the in-game world is highly unlikely to notice these effects. I believe they were done to appeal to players. I can see an effect being visible where it makes sense, such as with frost weapon, but doubt in-game characters actually see the aura of your champion's rally or speed lines of a rogue with momentum active. The inclusion of those special effects do not convince me Origins is higher magic.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:29 .

[drahelvete]

wicNKWD37 wrote...

I dislike that combat is just two guys stabbing each other. cant it be like in the old republic with its dueling system. Isnt seeing your character having a long duel and then in a flashing move decapitate the enemy more rewarding?

Not very realistic in a big melee, however.

[crimzontearz]

Seagloom wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


actually, seagloom, it's called Vigor not Potence now....but I agree 100% with you...DA2 should not turn into exalted in Thedas

Ah, I see. I was going by the VtM name since Bloodlines was based in OWoD, not Reqiuem.

I know, I was just poking at you




personally I always liked how they did it in Vampire the Masquerade: redemptiion. Discipline usage was highlighted by a 2D glowing gliph underneath the character which was obviously an out of game thing but at least it was not an exalted like aura.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
A realist would say they're catering to them.

Sure they would.  

Actually I'm guessing a realist probably wouldn't concern themselves with unknowable motives.   Except possibly to state that they are, in fact, unknowable - and possibly irrelevant.  

Sylvanus is a realist now? I thought he was a logician.

Thetribeman wrote...

Who ever said it was supposed to a low magic setting?

The developers. On numerous occasions.

This game is made in the spirit of the forgotten realms series.

It's a spiritual successor to Buldar's Gate. It is not based on or in the spirit of the Forgotten Realms.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 janvier 2011 - 03:45 .

[AngelicMachinery]

crimzontearz wrote...

actually, seagloom, it's called Vigor not Potence now....but I agree 100% with you...DA2 should not turn into exalted in Thedas

As a brief aside, could Bioware please, please make an exalted game?  I'd nerdgasm...

[crimzontearz]

no Bioware needs to make a Requiem for Rome game



a very supernatural centric low politics one