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[Reidbynature]

Do we know if DA2 will have a better range of racial diversity?  I was dissapointed that Dragon Age, a game that seem to use elves as an allegory for black slavery and the treatment of native Americans lacks any black or asian people.  That and it's a fictional fantasy world that's not based on anywhere specific so it just seems thoughtless to the point of discriminaton to not include other ethnicities.  Not to mention that the character creator doesn't really let you make a black or asian character with its messed up colour settings.

Will this be changed for DA2?

[Stanley Woo]

Reidbynature wrote...

Do we know if DA2 will have a better range of racial diversity?  I was dissapointed that Dragon Age, a game that seem to use elves as an allegory for black slavery and the treatment of native Americans lacks any black or asian people.

It can also be an allegory for the Jews, North-American Japanese during WWII, the poor, the Romani, Yu-Gi-Oh players or any other peoples segregated and ghettoized for reasons other than race.

That and it's a fictional fantasy world that's not based on anywhere specific so it just seems thoughtless to the point of discriminaton to not include other ethnicities.

We should include all real world ethnicities into a fictional fantasy world why, exactly? How does it fit into our fantasy setting, or are you trying to tell us what our fantasy setting should look like in order to be "fair"?

Not to mention that the character creator doesn't really let you make a black or asian character with its messed up colour settings.

Will this be changed for DA2?

You should probably play the game to find out. i have not yet met anyone who disliked a game because of "lack of racial diversity." Most folks will concentrate on story and gameplay, but what do I know? That's just my opinion.

[Stanley Woo]

LURadio wrote...

We should include all real world ethnicities into a fictional fantasy world why, exactly? How does it fit into our fantasy setting, or are you trying to tell us what our fantasy setting should look like in order to be "fair"?

I love Stanley's quote, it sums it up perfectly, why exactly in a fantasy world is racial diversity necessary ?? 

Is it because in the politically correct universe we live in today it has to be for some reason or another every race, tone, etc. HAS to be included.  Jeez......if BioWare wanted to make all of the characters purple, blue, and green that's their choice because it's their fantasy world that they created.  We want free choice yes, but there's only soo much that you can ask for.  I'd also like to point out that every single fantasy I've seen has mainly white protagonists and supporting cast.  In North America and Europe we tend to follow what I call the "Tolkein layout" of fantasy where everything is set a certain way.

I'm not saying that it's something I'm against in any way, I'm just looking at it realistically, why is it NECESSARY for them to do it in a fantasy landscape ??

The bolded part reflects my precise thoughts on it. Would it be cool, neat or interesting? Sure it would. Could it look pretty awesome? Absolutely, since if we decided to do it, we would take the time and care necessary to make it look as good as possible. Is it necessary for our game world to function, our story to play out, or our game to be good? No, it isn't.

[Stanley Woo]

Reidbynature wrote...
To be 'fair'?  Yes I guess that's what I'm getting at.  Why not cater to all possible audiences?  Not that I'm saying that people of other ethnicities got tired of DA:O claiming it was 'too whitebred'.  Just that if you're going to create a fictional world you want to be embraced worldwide then it wouldn't hurt to cater to them a bit.  Maybe I worded the first post a little strongly.  I know I can't impose my view, just trying to add some constructive criticism.

No, it was a valid argument. I merely disagreed with the priority it should have when it comes to creating a fictional world. Fantasy worlds in and of themselves don't have any real rules. Magic, dragons, unlimited treasures in unlimited dungeons, swords 10x larger than is practical, everyone's an adventurer or quest-giver--all the conceits of "fantasy."

it's when these concepts are used to develop a commercial product that you start getting into the rules and expectations people have for it, ebcause you want that product to sell, and sell as much as possible. When it comes to selling a product, though, I think few people will refuse to buy a product based on whether it has a character, setting, or themes which reflect their race, religion, or whatever. i think more people would refuse to buy a game based on how it plays, whether the story intrigues them. And I tthink the opposite is also true--that people will buy a game or story or film based on actors, director, graphics, story, romances, and not for such ultimately trivial concepts like "can I make a guy who looks like me?" or "will someone speak a word of Farsi?" or "there's no black guy in here!"

While this is not a forum for political discussion, this seems relevant to the subject under discussion. If we were to arbitrarily add ethnic diversity "for the sake of fairness," we would not hear the end of how careless and insensitive we are in not highlighting the noble differences in each race, or how "X race people don't act that way" or"how come the X races didn't have more to say?" Because the second you open the door to "fairness", very little  becomes forbidden and you end up with an unfocused product that tries to please everyone but ultimately fails to please anyone.

Perhaps you've noticed other concepts that weren't in our game: vegetarians, polygamists, horses, fox hunts, soccer moms, conservational biologists, astronomers, pansexuals, furries, LARPers, numismatists, lepers, schizophrenics, the deaf, paraplegics, Protestants, or Yu-Gi-Oh players (yes, i'm using it again, since so many people said they liked it). Now, currently the discussion is racial diversity, but how far do we go in order to be "fair" and "inclusive"? Do we start getting into religious diveristy (which could seriously compromise our concept of the Chantry and the Maker), sexuality (which has its own inherent issues), hobbies, nationalities (can you imagine a "Canadian" in Thedas)? Where do you draw the line on "fairness"?

And how "fair" can you be without disappointing someone? We've got European concepts pretty well covered, but perhaps you also want Asians to be represented? That might work, but is there an Asian equivalent in the Dragon Age setting? You seem to wish to ignore it in favour of "fairness" and "inclusion."

Careful.  You might fall over and injure yourself carrying all that sarcasm by yourself.

Nah, sarcasm is light. i got bags of the stuff!

Look I'm just trying to make suggestions, have conversations with other fans and find out about DA2.  If it's a that I didn't think everything was just fine with the first game.  If I come on a bit too harsh at times I apologise, but I'm still going to voice my opinion on what I didn't think went right with the previous entry.

No need to apologize. I'm enjoying the discussion. i'm just trying to impress upon you the slippery slope you may encounter when you try to include or "be fair" to everyone. i just don't think it's possible, so why not just appeal to a large group of people (maybe not "the largest" or "as many as possible") and hope for the best. As long as you're not actively trying to offend someone--which we aren't--it should work out okay and you'll still have a decent game.

[David Gaider]

AlexXIV wrote...
What bothers me is that Bioware makes a game, chooses a setting and people complain about lack of specific races who don't even fit the setting. I find that premature and narrow-minded. And if it is about race/species then naturally it is called racism. I think I also said I have no problem with different races if it is backed up by lore. But people just randomly being black or asian seems odd to me. Especially in a medivial setting where you can't just get on a plane and fly around the world in half a day.

Yet I think it's fair to say that we could have included a broader spectrum of visible ethnicities in our world, if we wished to. I have to agree with Stan that this isn't necessarily a worthy goal for its own sake. It might be interesting, sure, but it could also be pretty banal-- if I were to include that in a setting, I certainly hope it'd be more than just tokenism. I don't think anyone wants that.

There's a little too much privilege involved to say this shouldn't be a problem for someone (not that you're saying this, Alex, just a comment on some posts I'm seeing). Obviously everyone wants to see themselves reflected in a world they're enjoying, at some level, and I can see how someone might perceive a lack as feeling excluded. Ultimately we're going to tell the stories that we think we have something to say about, and if they work as allegories to issues in the real world I think that's possibly a bit better than having everything stake out a claim in our fantasy (also as Stan said). Racially speaking there are multiple human races represented in Thedas and you'll see them depending on where you go-- Kirkwall is in a different part of the world than Ferelden, so you should see that reflected in DA2.

In the end it'll be up to you to tell us how well we did. With any luck the effort we made to have your family represent your appearance choices will show we're at least listening.

[Stanley Woo]

Sure, no one quotes me when I tell people our next game is the long-awaited Go-Bots/My Little Pony MMO they've all been waiting for, but say something that's not "everyone's a unique snowflake" and people jump all over you.

I thought we were having a grand discussion here, weren't we, even if we don't always agree with each other?

EDIT: This would also be a good time to remind everyone to please be excellent to each other.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 04 janvier 2011 - 08:58 .

[Stanley Woo]

Reidbynature wrote...

Personally I think this thread and that blog is all a bit 'storm in a teacup'.  I never said it had to be mandatory, just that it was weird considering some of the previous games content made the lack of diversity seem out of place and that maybe it wouldn't matter to let players play as whichever colour they chose.

And i'm saying sure, but we don't hafta, and occasionally getting a little sarcastic. See, it all works out and we're still friends. dunno why people have to blow it all out of proportion on the internet.

[Stanley Woo]

As a lifelong Chinese-Canadian, I'm enthusiastic about shows that feature Asian actors and characters in prominent guest roles and recurring roles and make it a special thing. But do you know what I appreciate even more? When shows do that and it's not treated as a special thing, because that means race, "diversity" and "fairness" aren't seen as requiring attention and we can just live in harmony with each other as people.



Do I care that Dragon Age II probably won't have any Asian-themed characters? heck, no! It's an awesome game by an awesome company set in an awesome world, developed by awesome people.



Am i concerned that I won't be able to feel represented by my PC or the story/setting? Heck no! I am defined by more than just my race. i have my height, my roguish nature, my love of fantasy, wish fulfillment, and lifelong love of sword-and-sorcery. I also have a love of good story and the triumph of good over evil.You know what wouldn't have represented me? Jade Empire with non-Asian themed names. but that's just how far you'd have to get for me to not find something in a game that represents me.



Do I think a game/story/setting is racist for not including Asian characters or themes? Heck no, i would think the opposite. Not everything is about me. sometimes it's about the black guy over there or the Jewish girl over there or, and I know this is a radical concept, the white guys all around me.



I know people feel very strongly about them, but ultimately, It's. A. Game. And games have their own internal consistency and rules. I don't have to like all the rules in order to play the game, and in some games, i can even modify the rules, so I'll accept that. Some folks may wish to die on this particular hill, but there are far bigger and more important ones where I'll hang my hat. but again, that's just my opinion.



thanks for the great discussion, all.

[Stanley Woo]

Yes, now let's keep it on Dragon Age II and all be friends.

[Stanley Woo]

RohanD wrote...

Stanley, it's thought processes like these that help maintain the status quo in the media. You can say, "it's just a game" then say "it's just a tv show" then say "it's just a movie" and sooner or later, you're really just saying "You know what, I don't care if every single form of media represents an outdated, world view which was born out of and continues to represent the shadows of imperialism. In fact, I'm totally cool with that and will not stand up against it in any way, shape or form". That's pretty weak in my opinion. The same goes for the representation of women in games, where I think Bioware has done a little better.

Oh, RohanD, please tell me you didn't stop just short of calling me a racist sympathizer after everything I've already posted to this thread.

I'm not asking "why didn't?" I am asking "why couldn't?". Why couldn't there have been at least one positive character with dark skin?

Why does there need to be?

What was stopping you? It's fantasy right, so you can make it any way you like.

So we did. Why do we need to make it the way you like?

What was the reason for this decision, or was it that simply there was no thought put into breaking the stereotypes which have existed in fantasy since Tolkien's time?

I'm pretty sure we aren't obligated to justify our creative process to each person who disagrees with us. Suffice it to say that we created a luxury entertainment product the way we wanted, and it was received very well and received many awards. We would consider that some measure of success in a history of such successes. That's about it.

I can tell you, though, that at no time was there ever a meeting, email, conversation, or workflow which consisted of "do we include black people (y/n)?" "No."

The world has changed, its media needs to change with it.

It may, at that, but it's not going to do so through a handful of people making unreasonable demands and accusations to a single content creator... especially not due to an internet disagreement. You want real change? Join an advocacy group or related non-profit organization and get involved with like-minded people who are actively working to effect change. Telling a random BioWarian that they're wrong ultimately accomplishes nothing towards your goal.

[Stanley Woo]

I hate to do this, as it may look like I'm trying to get the last word in, but the last few pages have indicated that it's past time to close this thread as it's gotten way too heated. RohanD, or anyone, really, if you wish to respond to my post, please send it to me via private message. thank you, everyone.



End of line.