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[Sylvius the Mad]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Do I think a game/story/setting is racist for not including Asian characters or themes? Heck no, i would think the opposite. Not everything is about me. sometimes it's about the black guy over there or the Jewish girl over there or, and I know this is a radical concept, the white guys all around me.

I love you, Stan.

Now, go get your hug on.

[drahelvete]

AlexXIV wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

I love how someone can make a passionate speech about ethnic diversity and tolerance one second, and then use words like "gypsy" and "half-breed" the next.
The preferred term is Romani.

Just to be clear: I'm not calling anyone a racist. If anything, I think this whole PC thing has gone way too far. Just thought it was funny.

I am sorry about using the word gypsy I was admittedly ignorant of it having negative connotations, the more you know right?  

Huh I am a half-breed myself. And it is not meant offensive but rather matter-of-factly. I didn't know gypsy was an insult either. And I am not going to see it as an insult either unless you have good explaination why I should.

The term "half-breed" would be considered extremely racist where I'm from, but if you're fine with it, who am I to judge? Different country, different social rules, I guess.

As to why the term "gypsy is considered derogatory, you'd have to ask a Romani. All I know is that most Romany I've ever met don't like being called "gypsies" (and I used to go to school with a whole bunch of them). I guess it has something to do with people associating the word with caravans, big skirts, and theft.

[upsettingshorts]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Because those are still parts of Europe.

Things I've learned today:

*North African features are "tanned white features" and such ethnicities do not count.
*Southern Europeans are the same as Northern Europeans because all white people are the same.

Thinly veiled sarcasm aside: Your point about culture rings hollow. The Rivaini have a culture distinct from the rest of Thedas. They are not simply "reskinned Europeans." Nor, indeed, are Europeans so homogenous in real life. Same with, you know, Africa - that's why "race" is a dumb label.

What this thread I think is ultimately calling for is diversity in ethnicity and culture. That's different from simply checking off boxes in "racial bingo." The reason I've been arguing that Isabela as representative of Rivaini isn't white is the same reason I've been arguing she isn't black - she is what she is, and that is a Rivaini whose features vaguely resemble those of Northern Africans, and that's - at least so far, what the Rivaini look like. That isn't to say she either doesn't count because she's too white, or doesn't count because she's not black enough: She counts because she represents the same kind of differences this thread ultimately calls for.

Is that "enough"? No, not really. But David Gaider made a good post earlier in this thread that sums up how I feel on the issue as well. It'd be good to quote in full again:

David Gaider wrote...

Yet I think it's fair to say that we could have included a broader spectrum of visible ethnicities in our world, if we wished to. I have to agree with Stan that this isn't necessarily a worthy goal for its own sake. It might be interesting, sure, but it could also be pretty banal-- if I were to include that in a setting, I certainly hope it'd be more than just tokenism. I don't think anyone wants that.

There's a little too much privilege involved to say this shouldn't be a problem for someone (not that you're saying this, Alex, just a comment on some posts I'm seeing). Obviously everyone wants to see themselves reflected in a world they're enjoying, at some level, and I can see how someone might perceive a lack as feeling excluded. Ultimately we're going to tell the stories that we think we have something to say about, and if they work as allegories to issues in the real world I think that's possibly a bit better than having everything stake out a claim in our fantasy (also as Stan said). Racially speaking there are multiple human races represented in Thedas and you'll see them depending on where you go-- Kirkwall is in a different part of the world than Ferelden, so you should see that reflected in DA2.

In the end it'll be up to you to tell us how well we did. With any luck the effort we made to have your family represent your appearance choices will show we're at least listening.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:52 .

[AlexXIV]

Ninja Mage wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Korva wrote...

more diversity would be fun (and no, a Spanish or French accent and slightly darker skin don't count as "racial diversity").

Wait... why not?

Because those are still parts of Europe. Just giving a European person in an established setting darker skin and an accent is so tacky. Yes, people like that exist around the world but they have culture and features to match.

Italians and spanish do have arabic and african influences. Due to history etc. Well if you look at it europe is pretty much a melting pot of different cultures.

This is true. But I mean when they take someone who is obviously not arabic or african in europe, and give them dark skin and a wierd accent. It's like just forgetting everything else about the person

Well I am half-italian. I went with my friend who is german to italy. And people thought he was the italian and I am the german because he looks darker than I ... just so much about that topic lol.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:51 .

[AngelicMachinery]

drahelvete wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

I love how someone can make a passionate speech about ethnic diversity and tolerance one second, and then use words like "gypsy" and "half-breed" the next.
The preferred term is Romani.

Just to be clear: I'm not calling anyone a racist. If anything, I think this whole PC thing has gone way too far. Just thought it was funny.

I am sorry about using the word gypsy I was admittedly ignorant of it having negative connotations, the more you know right?  

Huh I am a half-breed myself. And it is not meant offensive but rather matter-of-factly. I didn't know gypsy was an insult either. And I am not going to see it as an insult either unless you have good explaination why I should.

The term "half-breed" would be considered extremely racist where I'm from, but if you're fine with it, who am I to judge? Different country, different social rules, I guess.

As to why the term "gypsy is considered derogatory, you'd have to ask a Romani. All I know is that most Romany I've ever met don't like being called "gypsies" (and I used to go to school with a whole bunch of them). I guess it has something to do with people associating the word with caravans, big skirts, and theft.

You see this is why I am confused,  I thought romanian people were well romanian and gypsy were gypsys.  Public school did me wrong.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:53 .

[Harid]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

I love how someone can make a passionate speech about ethnic diversity and tolerance one second, and then use words like "gypsy" and "half-breed" the next.
The preferred term is Romani.

Just to be clear: I'm not calling anyone a racist. If anything, I think this whole PC thing has gone way too far. Just thought it was funny.

I am sorry about using the word gypsy I was admittedly ignorant of it having negative connotations, the more you know right?  

Huh I am a half-breed myself. And it is not meant offensive but rather matter-of-factly. I didn't know gypsy was an insult either. And I am not going to see it as an insult either unless you have good explaination why I should.

The term "half-breed" would be considered extremely racist where I'm from, but if you're fine with it, who am I to judge? Different country, different social rules, I guess.

As to why the term "gypsy is considered derogatory, you'd have to ask a Romani. All I know is that most Romany I've ever met don't like being called "gypsies" (and I used to go to school with a whole bunch of them). I guess it has something to do with people associating the word with caravans, big skirts, and theft.

You see this is I am confused,  I thought romanian people were well romanian and gypsy were gypsys.  Public school did my wrong.

There is a difference between the Romani and Romanians.

[Fortlowe]

[spam image removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:23 .

[dzizass]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

Because those are still parts of Europe.

Things I've learned today:

*North African features are "tanned white features" and such ethnicities do not count.
*Southern Europeans are the same as Northern Europeans because all white people are the same.

Thinly veiled sarcasm aside: Your point about culture rings hollow. The Rivaini have a culture distinct from the rest of Thedas. They are not simply "reskinned Europeans." Nor, indeed, are Europeans so homogenous in real life. Same with, you know, Africa - that's why "race" is a dumb label.

"Race" isn't a dumb label, you're both just using it wrong.
http://en.wikipedia....f_human_beings)

And Europe is probably the most culturally diversified continent: compare Greek culture to Norwegian or Russian to Portugese... Not much in common.

[Dhiro]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Do I think a game/story/setting is racist for not including Asian characters or themes? Heck no, i would think the opposite. Not everything is about me. sometimes it's about the black guy over there or the Jewish girl over there or, and I know this is a radical concept, the white guys all around me.

I love you, Stan.

Now, go get your hug on.

I think my brain is broken.

Can I get a hug too?

[Ninja Mage]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

Because those are still parts of Europe.

Things I've learned today:

*North African features are "tanned white features" and such ethnicities do not count.
*Southern Europeans are the same as Northern Europeans because all white people are the same.

Thinly veiled sarcasm aside: Your point about culture rings hollow. The Rivaini have a culture distinct from the rest of Thedas. They are not simply "reskinned Europeans." Nor, indeed, are Europeans so homogenous in real life. Same with, you know, Africa - that's why "race" is a dumb label.

What this thread I think is ultimately calling for is diversity in ethnicity and culture. That's different from simply checking off boxes in "racial bingo." The reason I've been arguing that Isabela as representative of Rivaini isn't white is the same reason I've been arguing she isn't black - she is what she is,

Why can't she be black? There is NOTHING in the game saying Rivaini don't have black features. The current in game picture of Isabela looks like a british person with really wierd skin. There's nothing ethnic or diverse about her. I never said North african features are "Tan white features'' and I'm not playing Racial Bingo. If the setting is already set in Europe, yeah I want to see someone other than a European person with white features that the developer obviously had no racial background for. A character is more than a skin change and saying they like spicy food or some nonsense.

[drahelvete]

AngelicMachinery wrote...
You see this is I am confused,  I thought romanian people were well romanian and gypsy were gypsys.  Public school did my wrong.

A Romanian is a person from Romania.
A Romani is a member of an ethnic group that came to Europe from India back in the Early Middle Ages, and has been persecuted ever since.
Many Romany live in Romania, but most Romanians aren't Romany.

Modifié par drahelvete, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:58 .

[upsettingshorts]

dzizass wrote...

"Race" isn't a dumb label, you're both just using it wrong.

Indeed, I should have said in this context it is a dumb label.  I recall being taught how to idenfity human remains in Intro to Forensic Science.

[Atakuma]

Ninja Mage wrote...
Why can't she be black? There is NOTHING in the game saying Rivaini don't have black features. The current in game picture of Isabela looks like a british person with really wierd skin. There's nothing ethnic or diverse about her. I never said North african features are "Tan white features'' and I'm not playing Racial Bingo. If the setting is already set in Europe, yeah I want to see someone other than a European person with white features that the developer obviously had no racial background for. A character is more than a skin change and saying they like spicy food or some nonsense.

Isabela does not have black features because she is not intended to look black. The developers are not stupid, if they wanted her to look black, she would.

[Harid]

dzizass wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

Because those are still parts of Europe.

Things I've learned today:

*North African features are "tanned white features" and such ethnicities do not count.
*Southern Europeans are the same as Northern Europeans because all white people are the same.

Thinly veiled sarcasm aside: Your point about culture rings hollow. The Rivaini have a culture distinct from the rest of Thedas. They are not simply "reskinned Europeans." Nor, indeed, are Europeans so homogenous in real life. Same with, you know, Africa - that's why "race" is a dumb label.

"Race" isn't a dumb label, you're both just using it wrong.

And Europe is probably the most culturally diversified continent: compare Greek culture to Norwegian or Russian to Portugese... Not much in common.

The people who tend to use the race is a dumb label tend to want it to be changed to Ethnic Groups, but the problem is is that race as a concept is ingrained into humanity, and I don't feel it will change for some time.  Ethnic groups would in actually, cut people into even larger subsets of people, and would ultimately be a bigger problem despite that there are many differences between races, due to the differences in ethnic groups in them.

It's kinda like Libertarianism.  Good on paper, but given the way people act, it would not contend with reality too well.  I don't see why people who use this arguement can't understand that.

[Ninja Mage]

I give up. Upsetting Shorts is putting words in my mouth and he's coming off as a huge jerk, so before I just lose it, I will leave the thread.

[upsettingshorts]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Why can't she be black? There is NOTHING in the game saying Rivaini don't have black features.

Because she doesn't look West African?  Or East African... or Central African.  She looks North African.  North Africans share some features with other Africans, and share other features with Southern Europeans.  That's a simplification, but I really have a hard time understanding what you're ultimately trying to get at.

Ninja Mage wrote...

The current in game picture of Isabela looks like a british person with really wierd skin. There's nothing ethnic or diverse about her

This is the same thinking that leads people to say "All (blank) people look alike."  That's why every time you post on this train of thought I have to restrain myself from erupting in anger and frustration. 

Her ethnicity is Rivaini.  Rivaini look like Isabela and Duncan.  Her culture is Rivaini.  That is distinct from the rest of Thedas. 

They A) Don't look like everyone else we've seen so far  Don't believe in the Maker C) Have a culture that makes them more accepting of the Qun.  What's not diverse about that?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:06 .

[AlexXIV]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

I love how someone can make a passionate speech about ethnic diversity and tolerance one second, and then use words like "gypsy" and "half-breed" the next.
The preferred term is Romani.

Just to be clear: I'm not calling anyone a racist. If anything, I think this whole PC thing has gone way too far. Just thought it was funny.

I am sorry about using the word gypsy I was admittedly ignorant of it having negative connotations, the more you know right?  

Huh I am a half-breed myself. And it is not meant offensive but rather matter-of-factly. I didn't know gypsy was an insult either. And I am not going to see it as an insult either unless you have good explaination why I should.

The term "half-breed" would be considered extremely racist where I'm from, but if you're fine with it, who am I to judge? Different country, different social rules, I guess.

As to why the term "gypsy is considered derogatory, you'd have to ask a Romani. All I know is that most Romany I've ever met don't like being called "gypsies" (and I used to go to school with a whole bunch of them). I guess it has something to do with people associating the word with caravans, big skirts, and theft.

You see this is why I am confused,  I thought romanian people were well romanian and gypsy were gypsys.  Public school did me wrong.

Well I honestly don't know how to describe people without offending someone. As long as I don't say 'all gypsies are thieves' I don't see a problem with it. If someone has parents of two differnent races or cultures they are half breeds for me. I don't know a more PC name for it. I assume in some countries this term is used to act condescending towards some people but that's hardly my fault. Also it is not my fault if people bring a bad name to their own countrymen/culture by acting poorly. However nothing of it is my problem because I am not the one who generalizes or points finger. I simply refered to her (Isabellas) looks.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:03 .

[Harid]

AlexXIV wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

I love how someone can make a passionate speech about ethnic diversity and tolerance one second, and then use words like "gypsy" and "half-breed" the next.
The preferred term is Romani.

Just to be clear: I'm not calling anyone a racist. If anything, I think this whole PC thing has gone way too far. Just thought it was funny.

I am sorry about using the word gypsy I was admittedly ignorant of it having negative connotations, the more you know right?  

Huh I am a half-breed myself. And it is not meant offensive but rather matter-of-factly. I didn't know gypsy was an insult either. And I am not going to see it as an insult either unless you have good explaination why I should.

The term "half-breed" would be considered extremely racist where I'm from, but if you're fine with it, who am I to judge? Different country, different social rules, I guess.

As to why the term "gypsy is considered derogatory, you'd have to ask a Romani. All I know is that most Romany I've ever met don't like being called "gypsies" (and I used to go to school with a whole bunch of them). I guess it has something to do with people associating the word with caravans, big skirts, and theft.

You see this is why I am confused,  I thought romanian people were well romanian and gypsy were gypsys.  Public school did me wrong.

Well I honestly don't know how to describe people without offending someone. As long as I don't say 'all gypsies are thieves' I don't see a problem with it. If someone has parents of two differnent races or cultures they are half breeds for me. I don't know a more PC name for it. I assume in some countries this term is used to act condescending towards some people but that's hardly my fault. Also it is not my fault if people bring a bad name name to their own countrymen/culture by acting poorly. However nothing of it is my problem because I am not the one who generalizes or points finger. I simply refered to her (Isabellas) looks.

The PC term would be mixed race or mixed ethnicity.

[Harid]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

Why can't she be black? There is NOTHING in the game saying Rivaini don't have black features.

Because she doesn't look West African?  Or East African... or Central African.  She looks North African.  North Africans share some features with other Africans, and share other features with Southern Europeans.  That's a simplification, but I really have a hard time understanding what you're ultimately trying to get at.

Ninja Mage wrote...

The current in game picture of Isabela looks like a british person with really wierd skin. There's nothing ethnic or diverse about her

This is the same thinking that leads people to say "All (blank) people look alike."  That's why every time you post on this train of thought I have to restrain myself from erupting in anger and frustration. 

Her ethnicity is Rivaini.  Rivaini look like Isabela and Duncan.  Her culture is Rivaini.  That is distinct from the rest of Thedas.  

Duncan is half Riviani, and isn't a good representation of what they look like.  I could post a picture of Barack Obama, and I would not use him as a representation of what white people look like, for instance.

[Ninja Mage]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

Remember these countries don't EXIST in Thedas. So in a way there is no African/Black, nor European.

You are absolutely right, which Makes Upsetting Shorts argument totally baseless.

[soteria]

Harid wrote...

Anecdotal evidence is Anecdotal. Who cares? Apparently you do, though, you couldn't care less about his version of anecdotal evidence posted earlier in this thread.

My point was that anecdotal evidence can't be used to disprove the existence of something. You essentially said, "I've never seen such a neighborhood in Manhattan, so it doesn't exist." Of course, it's always tough to prove the nonexistence of something, but saying "I never saw it" is inconclusive and pretty unconvincing as an argument.

dzizass wrote...

And Europe is probably the most culturally diversified continent: compare Greek culture to Norwegian or Russian to Portugese... Not much in common.

In fact, some of them would be pretty offended if you lumped them all together as we've seen in this thread.

[dzizass]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I recall being taught how to idenfity human remains in Intro to Forensic Science.

OMG 


....



Coolness

[Fortlowe]

[spam image removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:24 .

[PsychoBlonde]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

But they all had mustaches...  I really wish I could figure out how to make that go away.

IIRC you can by adjusting some of the facial shading, but the option that lets you do this isn't the one that you think it is, so finding it can be tricky.