448 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Yeah I am not mad, especially not at Gary.

[AlanC9]

Harid wrote...
You proved my point because you don't give a damn about whitewashing, which, most white people don't give a damn about, but they then have problems with tokeninsm which is the same god damned problem.

Huh?  I didn't say I don't give a damn about whitewashing, I said that your example wasn't an example of whitewashing because there wasn't any whitewashing.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:19 .

[Ninja Mage]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

I never said all Europeans are alike. God Dammit. I said that I want DIVERSE people in the game. Ofcourse she doesn't look West African thats why I even brough up the point. She SHOULD.

So she's... not black enough?

Ninja Mage wrote...

She is form a culture with dark skin, and most cultures with dark skin have different features and clothing.

How many pantsless people did you see in Ferelden?  How about ones who wore an extensive amount of jewelry and thigh-high boots?  Bandanas? 

Ninja Mage wrote...

That's not what I'm advocating for in this thread. You may be fine with it, but I want to see something MORE inclusive than that.

Saying, "I want to more diverse cultures in Dragon Age beyond the Rivaini" is not the same as "I want the Rivaini themselves to be more diverse."  The former is perfectly reasonable and I wouldn't argue with you.  The latter is rather, well... see the first part of this post.

Oh my God. She's not black enough? She doesn't look black AT ALL except for her creepily tanned skin, and I'm not talking about her jewelry, or her pants. And yes it is the same, because I am talking about the Rivaini, and you are the one who is ASSUMING their culture cannot be west african or god forbid, have full lips. You can take your latter and perfectly reasonable and shove it up your ass

[PsychoBlonde]

I'm hoping we get a scene where a Qunari refers to your group as "humans" when you have Varric and Fenris in your party, and they get huffy about it, leading to something like this:



Qunari: Sorry, all you people look the same to me.

Varric, horrified: You think we all look HUMAN?

Qunari: I think you all look the same. Short.

Hawke: *Snort*

[Harid]

AlanC9 wrote...

Harid wrote...
You proved my point because you don't give a damn about whitewashing, which, most white people don't give a damn about, but they then have problems with tokeninsm which is the same god damned problem.

Huh?  I didn't say I don't give a damn about whitewashing, I said that your example wasn't an example of whitewashing because there wasn't any whitewashing.

According to your anecdotal evidence.  Ok, buddy.

[AlanC9]

Jeez, Ninja. Too much coffee?

[soteria]

Harid wrote...

You understand he used the same argument earlier in the thread, and i was using anecdotal evidence in the same way, right?

Eh? He said, "I've seen neighborhoods like that," (ergo, they exist) and you said "I haven't." That's not using evidence the same way. To use an analogy, it's as though one person said "Some parts of Houston have drug dealers. I saw them while I was there." and someone else replied, "No, I lived in Houston for a few years and didn't see any drug dealers. Houston just doesn't have neighborhoods like that." It's a pretty ridiculous argument to make, really.

Or are you talking about something else?

[Ninja Mage]

U_U..ok I really give up this time. Sorry guys, just wierd how he can act that ignorant like the issue doesn't even exist

[IRMcGhee]

Snip

Ninja Mage wrote...
I never said all Europeans are alike. God Dammit. I said that I want DIVERSE people in the game. Ofcourse she doesn't look West African thats why I even brough up the point. She SHOULD. .

Snip

That's silly. Just having dark skin doesn't mean you have to have African features. Look at Indians and Arabs for a start. If she was supposed to be from an Africa-equivalent  part of Thedas you'd have a point, but if that was the case they'd have made her that way in the first place. Why wouldn't they ? 

[Harid]

soteria wrote...

Harid wrote...
You understand he used the same argument earlier in the thread, and i was using anecdotal evidence in the same way, right?

Eh? He said, "I've seen neighborhoods like that," (ergo, they exist) and you said "I haven't." That's not using evidence the same way. To use an analogy, it's as though one person said "Some parts of Houston have drug dealers. I saw them while I was there." and someone else replied, "No, I lived in Houston for a few years and didn't see any drug dealers. Houston just doesn't have neighborhoods like that." It's a pretty ridiculous argument to make, really.
Or are you talking about something else?

Your analogy is bad,  and we were both using anecdotal evidence.

Ninja Mage wrote...

U_U..ok I really give up this time.
Sorry guys, just wierd how he can act that ignorant like the issue
doesn't even exist

Calm yourself, I know this is a big issue to some people. . .it should be bigger than it is.  But Upsettingshorts is partially right, we have no seen enough of Rivain to come to the conclusion that Isabela is a whitewashed version of people from there, or conversely that she is the standard.  Though I suppose I could see how one could come to either conclusion.

Modifié par Harid, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:25 .

[AlexXIV]

Harid wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

I love how someone can make a passionate speech about ethnic diversity and tolerance one second, and then use words like "gypsy" and "half-breed" the next.
The preferred term is Romani.

Just to be clear: I'm not calling anyone a racist. If anything, I think this whole PC thing has gone way too far. Just thought it was funny.

I am sorry about using the word gypsy I was admittedly ignorant of it having negative connotations, the more you know right?  

Huh I am a half-breed myself. And it is not meant offensive but rather matter-of-factly. I didn't know gypsy was an insult either. And I am not going to see it as an insult either unless you have good explaination why I should.

The term "half-breed" would be considered extremely racist where I'm from, but if you're fine with it, who am I to judge? Different country, different social rules, I guess.

As to why the term "gypsy is considered derogatory, you'd have to ask a Romani. All I know is that most Romany I've ever met don't like being called "gypsies" (and I used to go to school with a whole bunch of them). I guess it has something to do with people associating the word with caravans, big skirts, and theft.

You see this is I am confused,  I thought romanian people were well romanian and gypsy were gypsys.  Public school did my wrong.

There is a difference between the Romani and Romanians.

Hard to discuss this when you are not english native speaker. I try. Sinti and Roma are sort of people without an own country. They are not exactly gypsies. So I guess that why they feel insulted if they are called gypsies. I know in germany there are sinti and roma, and I suspect in countries around germany as well.

[Xewaka]

Ninja Mage wrote...
I never said all Europeans are alike. God Dammit. I said that I want DIVERSE people in the game. Ofcourse she doesn't look West African thats why I even brough up the point. She SHOULD. She is form a culture with dark skin, and most cultures with dark skin have different features and clothing. She is not diverse in this respect, and just looks like a random European with mixed features. That's not what I'm advocating for in this thread. You may be fine with it, but I want to see something MORE inclusive than that.

From the (admitedlly scarce) descriptions available of Rivain, I believe Isabela looks exactly as she should: South portuguese.

[dzizass]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Oh my God. She's not black enough? She doesn't look black AT ALL except for her creepily tanned skin, and I'm not talking about her jewelry, or her pants. And yes it is the same, because I am talking about the Rivaini, and you are the one who is ASSUMING their culture cannot be west african or god forbid, have full lips. You can take your latter and perfectly reasonable and shove it up your ass

There are black people who don't have the typical black features, e.g. they have crooked noses. I think they live somewhere in North-Western Africa, not sure. And I think you should calm down.

[drahelvete]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I honestly don't know how to describe people without offending someone. .

That is kind of my point. This whole PC thing has gone WAY to far.
It shouldn't be about the words, it should be about how you deliver them.

Hell, in my country, you can't even call a janitor a janitor, you have to call him/her a "residential technician".

As long as I don't say 'all gypsies are thieves' I don't see a problem with it. If someone has parents of two differnent races or cultures they are half breeds for me. I don't know a more PC name for it. I assume in some countries this term is used to act condescending towards some people but that's hardly my fault. Also it is not my fault if people bring a bad name to their own countrymen/culture by acting poorly. However nothing of it is my problem because I am not the one who generalizes or points finger. I simply refered to her (Isabellas) looks

Well, the reason they "acted poorly" was because no country would accept them. They were either driven away or forced to work really menial jobs. Even today, they are denied education in a number of countries.
 
I know that. I didn't accuse anyone of racism. I just pointed out the irony.

[Ninja Mage]

Yeah, I know this, my whole family doesn't have typical black features, but what do I know right. Jesus. There are already people who look white with Tan skin in video games. The thread is called Racial Diversity. I want to see someone more diverse than that in games. it is just my OPINION>GOD

[upsettingshorts]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Oh my God. She's not black enough? She doesn't look black AT ALL

And you haven't really done a good job of convincing me why this is a problem.

Ninja Mage wrote...

and I'm not talking about her jewelry, or her pants.

You did mention clothes.

Ninja Mage wrote...

And yes it is the same, because I am talking about the Rivaini, and you are the one who is ASSUMING their culture cannot be west african or god forbid, have full lips.

Let me put it to you this way:  If we go to Rivain and see a bunch of "West African looking people" I'd be mildly surprised, but that'd be it.  I'm not assuming they cannot be, just stating that I see no reason to expect that they ought to be.

Ninja Mage wrote...
 I want to see someone more diverse than that in games. it is just my OPINION>GOD

I'm all for including more ethnically diverse characters - introduce a new continent inspired by the Empire of Mali, or Imperial China.  Rivain is Rivain already.

Xewaka wrote...

From the (admitedlly scarce) descriptions available of Rivain, I believe Isabela looks exactly as she should: South portuguese.

I've been going with North-West African, but before the Reconquista there's less reason to think those descriptions are in conflict than there would be today.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:27 .

[Stanley Woo]

Yes, now let's keep it on Dragon Age II and all be friends.

[AngelicMachinery]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I thought everyone loved Ron Swanson...

Some people know me as Duke Silver. 

*Snickers*

[TJPags]

Ninja Mage wrote...


I never said all Europeans are alike. God Dammit. I said that I want DIVERSE people in the game. Ofcourse she doesn't look West African thats why I even brough up the point. She SHOULD. She is form a culture with dark skin, and most cultures with dark skin have different features and clothing. She is not diverse in this respect, and just looks like a random European with mixed features. That's not what I'm advocating for in this thread. You may be fine with it, but I want to see something MORE inclusive than that.

I don't understand your point here.  She has dark skin - so Isabela SHOULD have West African features?  Are there no other dark skinned people in the world?  Or is it just that you would PREFER that she have West Arfican features?

Then there's this:

Ninja Mage wrote...


Why can't she be black? There is NOTHING in the game saying Rivaini don't have black features. The current in game picture of Isabela looks like a british person with really wierd skin. There's nothing ethnic or diverse about her. I never said North african features are "Tan white features'' and I'm not playing Racial Bingo. If the setting is already set in Europe, yeah I want to see someone other than a European person with white features that the developer obviously had no racial background for. A character is more than a skin change and saying they like spicy food or some nonsense.

If it's set in Eurpose (which DA is not, it's set in Thedas, but let's go with the "Thedas is based on Europe" thing) why would you expect to see someone other than one with European features?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it seems you are arguing for, not ethnic or racial diversity, but a spcific racial or ethnic diversity.  Which is your right, I suppose, but when there is some diversity, calling foul simply because it's not the one you want is somewhat self centered.

[Ninja Mage]

And I'm fine with South Portuguese but when I hear ****** rhetoric like, " She isn't black, she CANNOT have full lips she MUST be light skinned African,'' is just wtf

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
From the (admitedlly scarce) descriptions available of Rivain, I believe Isabela looks exactly as she should: South portuguese.

I've been going with North-West African, but before the Reconquista there's less reason to think those descriptions are in conflict than there would be today.

Saharawi are not that far from south iberian people. Hell, west sahara was part of Spain in the early XX, if I have my history right.

[AlexXIV]

drahelvete wrote...

Well, the reason they "acted poorly" was because no country would accept them. They were either driven away or forced to work really menial jobs. Even today, they are denied education in a number of countries.
 
I know that. I didn't accuse anyone of racism. I just pointed out the irony.

No I didn't mean that. I meant it in general. Could be english, german, italian, american. Whoever acts poorly and brings a bad name to their own country is not my problem. It sometimes feels like I have to bear the guilt of other people which I refuse. I have my hands full with standing by my own faults, I don't need to feel bad for other people faults as well.

[upsettingshorts]

Ninja Mage wrote...

And I'm fine with South Portuguese but when I hear ****** rhetoric like, " She isn't black, she CANNOT have full lips she MUST be light skinned African,'' is just wtf

Which is why I didn't say that.  

[Ninja Mage]

I have said from the beginning that I wanted more African or atleast Indian looking people in the game. It's not like I pulled that point out of my ass.

[Atakuma]

Ninja Mage wrote...

And I'm fine with South Portuguese but when I hear ****** rhetoric like, " She isn't black, she CANNOT have full lips she MUST be light skinned African,'' is just wtf

She cannot be black because she isn't black. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever.