448 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

Ninja Mage wrote...

I have said from the beginning that I wanted more African or atleast Indian looking people in the game.

That's fair enough. It is rather going for the traditional european mediveal fantasy though. Not that that's severely at odds, but at least somewhat.

[AlexXIV]

Ninja Mage wrote...

I have said from the beginning that I wanted more African or atleast Indian looking people in the game. It's not like I pulled that point out of my ass.

Well that's not what I agreed with though. I agreed that I liked the old Isa better despite the fact that her new look is supposed to be an improvement. I don't think that Thedas is big enough for the same racial range as we know from real life. There is simply an african and/or asian continent lacking, no?

[soteria]

Harid wrote...

soteria wrote...

Eh? He said, "I've seen neighborhoods like that," (ergo, they exist) and you said "I haven't." That's not using evidence the same way. To use an analogy, it's as though one person said "Some parts of Houston have drug dealers. I saw them while I was there." and someone else replied, "No, I lived in Houston for a few years and didn't see any drug dealers. Houston just doesn't have neighborhoods like that." It's a pretty ridiculous argument to make, really.

Or are you talking about something else?

Your analogy is bad,  and we were both using anecdotal evidence.

Sigh.  Honest question:  do you understand that logically, there is a difference between demonstrating the existence of something, and demonstrating its non-existence?  The strength of the evidence is equal, because as you say, you're both giving anecdotes as evidence. 

The problem, for you, is that what he wants to demonstrate is easy:  the existence of highly segregated communities in Manhattan.  All he needs to do is see one.  What you want to demonstrate is hard:  that they don't exist.  To know that, you would actually have to visit all of them, hence my initial sarcastic comment.  You're basically claiming to know every neighborhood in Manhattan.

[AngelicMachinery]

Yea, I'm not sure how this turned into something about racial diversity to demanding Isabella be black. I'm sure they'll be mods to make her black if you feel the need for the character to be. Heck, there are mods to trick Alistair into thinking a male warden is a girl.

[SemajChaos]

Well, if Thedas (right?) has humans, and the human's are based on humans, and humans have different races, I don't see why one would be incorrect in thinking that human's based on human's would have human traits. Like races.

[Harid]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

I have said from the beginning that I wanted more African or atleast Indian looking people in the game. It's not like I pulled that point out of my ass.

Well that's not what I agreed with though. I agreed that I liked the old Isa better despite the fact that her new look is supposed to be an improvement. I don't think that Thedas is big enough for the same racial range as we know from real life. There is simply an african and/or asian continent lacking, no?

Well. . .it's fantasy.  We don't know the size of thedas, or much of any continent outside of thedas, so there may not be an africa or an asia or an anywhere else but where the Qunari came from.

[nightcobra]

Ninja Mage wrote...

And I'm fine with South Portuguese but when I hear ****** rhetoric like, " She isn't black, she CANNOT have full lips she MUST be light skinned African,'' is just wtf

being portuguese and having travelled through spain, i think she looks more of a mocha skinned spanish woman than a portuguese woman, maybe brazillian too.
nevertheless i have seen quite a bit of attractive women that look a lot like isabela.

[Atakuma]

Arguing that Isabela should be west African because she has dark skin, is the same thing as arguing that a dog should be a cat because it has claws.

[upsettingshorts]

Such ethnically diverse cultures could exist on the same continent to the West of where our map of Thedas ends as well. But the general point is the same either way: I have no problem whatsoever with increasing the diversity of Thedas. None. But I think the best way to do it would be to open up the map and introduce new cultures. Not decide that what we already have or are limited to is meant to be representative of all the fictional universe has to work with.

[dzizass]

Ziggeh wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

I have said from the beginning that I wanted more African or atleast Indian looking people in the game.

That's fair enough. It is rather going for the traditional european mediveal fantasy though. Not that that's severely at odds, but at least somewhat.

Well, if you call what BioWare pulled off in DA a traditional European fantasy, I can't see a reason why the Rivietians (that's the name?) couldn't be black. And that's not irony, it certainly wouldn't make the setting any worse for me. Not to mention that Hawke and Fenris look like jrpg characters. So why no ****** people?

[Xewaka]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...
And I'm fine with South Portuguese but when I hear ****** rhetoric like, " She isn't black, she CANNOT have full lips she MUST be light skinned African,'' is just wtf

being portuguese and having travelled through spain, i think she looks more of a mocha skinned spanish woman than a portuguese woman, maybe brazillian too.
nevertheless i have seen quite a bit of attractive women that look a lot like isabela.

Well, I'm galician (from northwestern Spain) and she reminds me more of the southwestern peninsula women. I guess it's a question of perception.

Modifié par Xewaka, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:39 .

[Harid]

soteria wrote...

Harid wrote...

soteria wrote...

Eh? He said, "I've seen neighborhoods like that," (ergo, they exist) and you said "I haven't." That's not using evidence the same way. To use an analogy, it's as though one person said "Some parts of Houston have drug dealers. I saw them while I was there." and someone else replied, "No, I lived in Houston for a few years and didn't see any drug dealers. Houston just doesn't have neighborhoods like that." It's a pretty ridiculous argument to make, really.

Or are you talking about something else?

Your analogy is bad,  and we were both using anecdotal evidence.

Sigh.  Honest question:  do you understand that logically, there is a difference between demonstrating the existence of something, and demonstrating its non-existence?  The strength of the evidence is equal, because as you say, you're both giving anecdotes as evidence. 

The problem, for you, is that what he wants to demonstrate is easy:  the existence of highly segregated communities in Manhattan.  All he needs to do is see one.  What you want to demonstrate is hard:  that they don't exist.  To know that, you would actually have to visit all of them, hence my initial sarcastic comment.  You're basically claiming to know every neighborhood in Manhattan.

His initial point was the places they hung out were segregrated.  My point was that it was bull****, and there would be some minorities as waiters, or behind the counter, or etc, and then I made the anecdotal point.  Regardless, he would have to prove that there was some neighborhood with 100% white people in Manhattan.  No such place exists.  To contend to your argument, he would literally have to see every single person in the neighborhood.  That is why your analogy was bad, and this is the last time I will address you.

[PsychoBlonde]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I've been going with North-West African, but before the Reconquista there's less reason to think those descriptions are in conflict than there would be today.

She looks a bit like my friend's Ethiopian daughter, minus the curly hair and with a broader face.  Although from what I hear Ethiopia has like 4 bajillion ethnic groups.

[Ninja Mage]

And yes if I had a better computer than my Laptop I would mod her face to look more like Gabrielle Union or Ashanti

[AlexXIV]

Harid wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

I have said from the beginning that I wanted more African or atleast Indian looking people in the game. It's not like I pulled that point out of my ass.

Well that's not what I agreed with though. I agreed that I liked the old Isa better despite the fact that her new look is supposed to be an improvement. I don't think that Thedas is big enough for the same racial range as we know from real life. There is simply an african and/or asian continent lacking, no?

Well. . .it's fantasy.  We don't know the size of thedas, or much of any continent outside of thedas, so there may not be an africa or an asia or an anywhere else but where the Qunari came from.

We know that ferelden is in about the same climatic zone as england and that the north of thedas is probably subtropical. So not even equatorial. Thedas is bascally europe and mediterran if you asked me. Maybe including north africa and parts of near east. I wouldn't know where you'd find china or a black-african country on the map of thedas.

[drahelvete]

Harid wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

I have said from the beginning that I wanted more African or atleast Indian looking people in the game. It's not like I pulled that point out of my ass.

Well that's not what I agreed with though. I agreed that I liked the old Isa better despite the fact that her new look is supposed to be an improvement. I don't think that Thedas is big enough for the same racial range as we know from real life. There is simply an african and/or asian continent lacking, no?

Well. . .it's fantasy.  We don't know the size of thedas, or much of any continent outside of thedas, so there may not be an africa or an asia or an anywhere else but where the Qunari came from.

I think we've been told that humans originally came from Par Vollen.
That doesn't necessarily mean that it is the DA equivalent of Africa, but it could mean that there are humans still living there.

[FRSHPRNFILL]

I'm curious on why people use the word African to referring to blacks or dark skinned people? Could be more appropriate when using the word "culture", but coming from a white afrikaner, I'm just a bit baffled.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

LOLZ everybody could be in a game.It's racist to keep every minority out. I understand this qualifies me as some kind of "racist" because I call for racial diversity.

[Ziggeh]

dzizass wrote...

Well, if you call what BioWare pulled off in DA a traditional European fantasy, I can't see a reason why the Rivietians (that's the name?) couldn't be black. And that's not irony, it certainly wouldn't make the setting any worse for me. Not to mention that Hawke and Fenris look like jrpg characters. So why no ****** people?

They could be, there's no reason for them not to be, just as there's no real reason for them to be, right? Or did I miss that part, I haven't been following all that closely, I just picked up on what someone was actually suggesting for DA2 rather than arguing about lips.

[RohanD]

Maria Caliban wrote...

LURadio wrote...

I love Stanley's quote, it sums it up perfectly, why exactly in a fantasy world is racial diversity necessary ?? 

To me, it's very obvious what's wrong with a world where there are only white people and non-humans. This is especially true when the author links non-humans to real world minorities.

It's something I dislike about World of Warcraft.

Human = European influences
Not human = Native American, Japanese, West African influences

It 'matters' because fantasy, like all other entertainment, is made for real world people. And like a great deal of entertainment, it's predominately white. Real people who aren't white read, watch, and play fantasy, and much of the time, they find worlds where people who look like them simply don't exist.

If the majority of fantasy didn't have any women, I wouldn't like it. The majority of fantasy doesn't have gay people, and I don't like that. My assumption is that if you're not white, you'd like to see stand ins for your racial group slaying dragons and rescuing princesses on occasion.

What Maria said. Racial bias in DA:O was very clear to me. The only dark skinned people were a Qunari who had murdered men, women and children and was found in a cage, and the Chasind, who are basically like wild barbarians. If you want to add Zevran to the mix, then you have a murderous, assassin as well. All positions of power were held by white, anglo saxon looking people. I think maybe many of the Cultists had dark skin too. 

I excuse these kinds of things from Fantasy written many years ago, LOTR for example. But I feel it is unacceptable now. Creators of any medium of entertainment have to realize that people from all types of backgrounds are their audience, and lessons in equality and diversity are extremely important. 

It's so funny that people argue that it's based on Medieval Britain, because you know what? At the time of "medieval Britain" darker skinned people from the Middle East and India were making monumental discoveries in medicine, science and the arts.

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...
And I'm fine with South Portuguese but when I hear ****** rhetoric like, " She isn't black, she CANNOT have full lips she MUST be light skinned African,'' is just wtf

being portuguese and having travelled through spain, i think she looks more of a mocha skinned spanish woman than a portuguese woman, maybe brazillian too.
nevertheless i have seen quite a bit of attractive women that look a lot like isabela.

Well, I'm galician (from northwestern Spain) and she reminds me more of the southwestern women of the peninsula. I guess it's a question of perception.

pretty much.

but now that i think about it, there was a pretty woman that looked almost exactly like isabela, i believe it was in santiago de compostela. she said she was a sailor, a fisherman (fisherwoman?) to be exact and she was staying there for the fireworks XD  

[AngelicMachinery]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

LOLZ everybody could be in a game.It's racist to keep every minority out. I understand this qualifies me as some kind of "racist" because I call for racial diversity.

No it doesn't as I think I said...  or maybe I didn't I would really like too see the game get more diverse.  What I don't quite understand is why Isabella has to be made black,  she didn't look quite black in DA:O in my oppinion.   I think it would be pretty cool to later on be introduced to other areas of the world with cultures that weren't so heavily influenced by european history. 

[Ninja Mage]

[quote]RohanD wrote...

It 'matters' because fantasy, like all other entertainment, is made for real world people. And like a great deal of entertainment, it's predominately white. Real people who aren't white read, watch, and play fantasy, and much of the time, they find worlds where people who look like them simply don't exist.

If the majority of fantasy didn't have any women, I wouldn't like it. The majority of fantasy doesn't have gay people, and I don't like that. My assumption is that if you're not white, you'd like to see stand ins for your racial group slaying dragons and rescuing princesses on occasion. [/quote]

What Maria said. Racial bias in DA:O was very clear to me. The only dark skinned people were a Qunari who had murdered men, women and children and was found in a cage, and the Chasind, who are basically like wild barbarians. If you want to add Zevran to the mix, then you have a murderous, assassin as well. All positions of power were held by white, anglo saxon looking people. I think maybe many of the Cultists had dark skin too. 

I excuse these kinds of things from Fantasy written many years ago, LOTR for example. But I feel it is unacceptable now. Creators of any medium of entertainment have to realize that people from all types of backgrounds are their audience, and lessons in equality and diversity are extremely important. 

It's so funny that people argue that it's based on Medieval Britain, because you know what? At the time of "medieval Britain" darker skinned people from the Middle East and India were making monumental discoveries in medicine, science and the arts.

[/quote]

Truth, good sir

[Atakuma]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

LOLZ everybody could be in a game.It's racist to keep every minority out. I understand this qualifies me as some kind of "racist" because I call for racial diversity.

No you are being rude calling the developers racists just because they don't meet some sort of arbitrary diversity quota.

[upsettingshorts]

RohanD wrote...

What Maria said. Racial bias in DA:O was very clear to me. The only dark skinned people were a Qunari who had murdered men, women and children and was found in a cage, and the Chasind, who are basically like wild barbarians. If you want to add Zevran to the mix, then you have a murderous, assassin as well. All positions of power were held by white, anglo saxon looking people. I think maybe many of the Cultists had dark skin too.

Maybe because the game took place in a white, Anglo-Saxon looking country? 

You know one that had just overthrown brutal occupiers in a civil war.  White (Orlesian) brutal occupiers.  

RohanD wrote...

It's so funny that people argue that it's based on Medieval Britain, because you know what? At the time of "medieval Britain" darker skinned people from the Middle East and India were making monumental discoveries in medicine, science and the arts.

The Qunari are more advanced than the rest of Thedas.  So I'm not sure what your point is.  Furthermore if a game is based in the fantasy equivalent of medieval England, what does that have to do with the state of philosophy and science in the medieval Islamic world?

Rohan D...

 But I feel it is unacceptable now. Creators of any medium of entertainment have to realize that people from all types of backgrounds are their audience, and lessons in equality and diversity are extremely important.

I agree.  Paying attention to the details of the story is also very important.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:50 .