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Lack of racial diversity


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#376
Harid

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henkez3 wrote...

I still don't get why it's such a problem with most fereldans, and indeed people from Thedas are white since it's based off of medieval England and Europe? I mean if Bioware made a game taking place in a fantasy setting based off of ancient Africa, I would be baffled if there were a bunch of white dudes running around.


But they haven't and they won't, so. . .yeah because apparently minorities don't belong in fantasy, according to some people here.  It's balderdash.

Modifié par Harid, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:20 .


#377
wwwwowwww

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Reidbynature wrote...

Do we know if DA2 will have a better range of racial diversity?  I was dissapointed that Dragon Age, a game that seem to use elves as an allegory for black slavery and the treatment of native Americans lacks any black or asian people.  That and it's a fictional fantasy world that's not based on anywhere specific so it just seems thoughtless to the point of discriminaton to not include other ethnicities.  Not to mention that the character creator doesn't really let you make a black or asian character with its messed up colour settings.

Will this be changed for DA2?


I do believe we've found a new low for the forum.

#378
Xewaka

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henkez3 wrote...

I still don't get why it's such a problem with most fereldans, and indeed people from Thedas are white since it's based off of medieval England and Europe? I mean if Bioware made a game taking place in a fantasy setting based off of ancient Africa, I would be baffled if there were a bunch of white dudes running around.


They'd call themselves "The Roman Empire" or "The Crusaders" (Depending on which time you want to set it), and they would be the main antagonists.

Modifié par Xewaka, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:21 .


#379
Ninja Mage

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And how Stanley Woo can defend the game the way it is being a developer is just baffling

#380
henkez3

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Harid wrote...

henkez3 wrote...

I still don't get why it's such a problem with most fereldans, and indeed people from Thedas are white since it's based off of medieval England and Europe? I mean if Bioware made a game taking place in a fantasy setting based off of ancient Africa, I would be baffled if there were a bunch of white dudes running around.


But they haven't and they won't, so. . .yeah because apparently minorities don't belong in fantasy, according to some people here.  It's balderdash.



But if the game takes place in a fantasy setting that parallels ancient Africa, the few white dudes around would be the minority...

#381
upsettingshorts

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Harid wrote...

But they haven't and they won't, so. . .yeah because apparently minorities don't belong in fantasy, according to some people here.  It's balderdash.


I've had tunnelvision when it comes to this thread, so could you point out people who actually said that? 

#382
Harid

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Xewaka wrote...

henkez3 wrote...

I still don't get why it's such a problem with most fereldans, and indeed people from Thedas are white since it's based off of medieval England and Europe? I mean if Bioware made a game taking place in a fantasy setting based off of ancient Africa, I would be baffled if there were a bunch of white dudes running around.


They'd call themselves "The Roman Empire" or "The Crusaders" (Depending on which time you want to set it), and they would be the main antagonists.


Given how much white people like to throw around the term "White Guilt" nowadays, I guarantee you that no one would have the stones to make a game where you played minorities and white people were the villains.  Such a game wouldn't be funded and would bomb if made.  The closest thing to ever come to this was Suikoden 3, and the Japanese aren't good enough writers nor have the history to explore this subject properly.

#383
Ziggeh

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Ninja Mage wrote...

And how Stanley Woo can defend the game the way it is being a developer is just baffling

Wait, what? A minute ago you were saying that you weren't calling them racists, only that it could be read that way if one wanted, and now you're saying that Mr Woo see's it that way?

#384
RohanD

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Stanley Woo wrote...

As a lifelong Chinese-Canadian, I'm enthusiastic about shows that feature Asian actors and characters in prominent guest roles and recurring roles and make it a special thing. But do you know what I appreciate even more? When shows do that and it's not treated as a special thing, because that means race, "diversity" and "fairness" aren't seen as requiring attention and we can just live in harmony with each other as people.

Do I care that Dragon Age II probably won't have any Asian-themed characters? heck, no! It's an awesome game by an awesome company set in an awesome world, developed by awesome people.

Am i concerned that I won't be able to feel represented by my PC or the story/setting? Heck no! I am defined by more than just my race. i have my height, my roguish nature, my love of fantasy, wish fulfillment, and lifelong love of sword-and-sorcery. I also have a love of good story and the triumph of good over evil.You know what wouldn't have represented me? Jade Empire with non-Asian themed names. but that's just how far you'd have to get for me to not find something in a game that represents me.

Do I think a game/story/setting is racist for not including Asian characters or themes? Heck no, i would think the opposite. Not everything is about me. sometimes it's about the black guy over there or the Jewish girl over there or, and I know this is a radical concept, the white guys all around me.

I know people feel very strongly about them, but ultimately, It's. A. Game. And games have their own internal consistency and rules. I don't have to like all the rules in order to play the game, and in some games, i can even modify the rules, so I'll accept that. Some folks may wish to die on this particular hill, but there are far bigger and more important ones where I'll hang my hat. but again, that's just my opinion. :)

thanks for the great discussion, all.


Stanley, it's thought processes like these that help maintain the status quo in the media. You can say, "it's just a game" then say "it's just a tv show" then say "it's just a movie" and sooner or later, you're really just saying "You know what, I don't care if every single form of media represents an outdated, world view which was born out of and continues to represent the shadows of imperialism. In fact, I'm totally cool with that and will not stand up against it in any way, shape or form". That's pretty weak in my opinion. The same goes for the representation of women in games, where I think Bioware has done a little better. 

I'm not asking "why didn't?" I am asking "why couldn't?". Why couldn't there have been at least one positive character with dark skin? What was stopping you? It's fantasy right, so you can make it any way you like. What was the reason for this decision, or was it that simply there was no thought put into breaking the stereotypes which have existed in fantasy since Tolkien's time? The world has changed, its media needs to change with it. 

#385
Bryy_Miller

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Ninja Mage wrote...

And how Stanley Woo can defend the game the way it is being a developer is just baffling


Do you intend on turning this thread into the old M/M thread?

#386
Harid

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Harid wrote...

But they haven't and they won't, so. . .yeah because apparently minorities don't belong in fantasy, according to some people here.  It's balderdash.


I've had tunnelvision when it comes to this thread, so could you point out people who actually said that? 


I was being hyperbolic, based on arguments I've had on this subject in the past.

#387
upsettingshorts

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RohanD wrote...

Why couldn't there have been at least one positive character with dark skin?


Duncan, despite his murdering of Jory, is portrayed in an extremely positive light.  He's also one of the first characters the protagonist meets in every Origin, and he's always introduced with the greatest of respect by other characters.

At least the Origins I can remember, anyway.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:29 .


#388
Dave of Canada

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Ziggeh wrote...

Wait, what? A minute ago you were saying that you weren't calling them racists, only that it could be read that way if one wanted, and now you're saying that Mr Woo see's it that way?


I do believe he only intends to argue for the sake of arguing, changing his points as he sees fit to cause more arguments.

#389
Harid

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RohanD wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

As a lifelong Chinese-Canadian, I'm enthusiastic about shows that feature Asian actors and characters in prominent guest roles and recurring roles and make it a special thing. But do you know what I appreciate even more? When shows do that and it's not treated as a special thing, because that means race, "diversity" and "fairness" aren't seen as requiring attention and we can just live in harmony with each other as people.

Do I care that Dragon Age II probably won't have any Asian-themed characters? heck, no! It's an awesome game by an awesome company set in an awesome world, developed by awesome people.

Am i concerned that I won't be able to feel represented by my PC or the story/setting? Heck no! I am defined by more than just my race. i have my height, my roguish nature, my love of fantasy, wish fulfillment, and lifelong love of sword-and-sorcery. I also have a love of good story and the triumph of good over evil.You know what wouldn't have represented me? Jade Empire with non-Asian themed names. but that's just how far you'd have to get for me to not find something in a game that represents me.

Do I think a game/story/setting is racist for not including Asian characters or themes? Heck no, i would think the opposite. Not everything is about me. sometimes it's about the black guy over there or the Jewish girl over there or, and I know this is a radical concept, the white guys all around me.

I know people feel very strongly about them, but ultimately, It's. A. Game. And games have their own internal consistency and rules. I don't have to like all the rules in order to play the game, and in some games, i can even modify the rules, so I'll accept that. Some folks may wish to die on this particular hill, but there are far bigger and more important ones where I'll hang my hat. but again, that's just my opinion. :)

thanks for the great discussion, all.


Stanley, it's thought processes like these that help maintain the status quo in the media. You can say, "it's just a game" then say "it's just a tv show" then say "it's just a movie" and sooner or later, you're really just saying "You know what, I don't care if every single form of media represents an outdated, world view which was born out of and continues to represent the shadows of imperialism. In fact, I'm totally cool with that and will not stand up against it in any way, shape or form". That's pretty weak in my opinion. The same goes for the representation of women in games, where I think Bioware has done a little better. 

I'm not asking "why didn't?" I am asking "why couldn't?". Why couldn't there have been at least one positive character with dark skin? What was stopping you? It's fantasy right, so you can make it any way you like. What was the reason for this decision, or was it that simply there was no thought put into breaking the stereotypes which have existed in fantasy since Tolkien's time? The world has changed, its media needs to change with it. 


Pretty much this. . .it helps to maintain the status quo. . .it fixes nothing.

#390
Mecha Tengu

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LOTR was rascist



a story that took place in ancient continental europe had white people and arabs but no black africans



BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWww

#391
Dave of Canada

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Duncan, despite his murdering of Jory, is portrayed in an extremely positive light.  He's also one of the first characters the protagonist meets in every Origin, and he's always introduced with the greatest of respect by other characters.


And his murdering of Jory wasn't really anything that "bad", everybody else in his position would've had to do it.

#392
upsettingshorts

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Dave of Canada wrote...

And his murdering of Jory wasn't really anything that "bad", everybody else in his position would've had to do it.


That's a debate for another thread.  Point is he's portrayed sympathetically. 

#393
Harid

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

RohanD wrote...

Why couldn't there have been at least one positive character with dark skin?


Duncan, despite his murdering of Jory, is portrayed in an extremely positive light.  He's also one of the first characters the protagonist meets in every Origin, and he's always introduced with the greatest of respect by other characters.

At least the Origins I can remember, anyway.


Most people wouldn't argue that Duncan was darkskinned. . .he looked like a typical fereldan.  Do you have toolset pictures of him to see if it was lighting issues?

#394
Dave of Canada

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's a debate for another thread.


Right.

My bad...

*goes into the batmobile and drives off*

#395
Atakuma

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RohanD wrote...

Stanley, it's thought processes like these that help maintain the status quo in the media. You can say, "it's just a game" then say "it's just a tv show" then say "it's just a movie" and sooner or later, you're really just saying "You know what, I don't care if every single form of media represents an outdated, world view which was born out of and continues to represent the shadows of imperialism. In fact, I'm totally cool with that and will not stand up against it in any way, shape or form". That's pretty weak in my opinion. The same goes for the representation of women in games, where I think Bioware has done a little better. 


That was a lovely strawman argument there sir. Not every person of ethnicity needs to see the world as some sort of shadowy conspiracy perpetrated by the white man.

#396
henkez3

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Harid wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RohanD wrote...

Why couldn't there have been at least one positive character with dark skin?


Duncan, despite his murdering of Jory, is portrayed in an extremely positive light.  He's also one of the first characters the protagonist meets in every Origin, and he's always introduced with the greatest of respect by other characters.

At least the Origins I can remember, anyway.


Most people wouldn't argue that Duncan was darkskinned. . .he looked like a typical fereldan.  Do you have toolset pictures of him to see if it was lighting issues?



Duncan was half Rivaini/half Fereldan.

#397
AlexXIV

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Harid wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RohanD wrote...

Why couldn't there have been at least one positive character with dark skin?


Duncan, despite his murdering of Jory, is portrayed in an extremely positive light.  He's also one of the first characters the protagonist meets in every Origin, and he's always introduced with the greatest of respect by other characters.

At least the Origins I can remember, anyway.


Most people wouldn't argue that Duncan was darkskinned. . .he looked like a typical fereldan.  Do you have toolset pictures of him to see if it was lighting issues?


Naw he wasn't typical ferelden. He seemed rather arabic to me. I was always wondering why he had a celtic name.

#398
Harid

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henkez3 wrote...

Harid wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RohanD wrote...

Why couldn't there have been at least one positive character with dark skin?


Duncan, despite his murdering of Jory, is portrayed in an extremely positive light.  He's also one of the first characters the protagonist meets in every Origin, and he's always introduced with the greatest of respect by other characters.

At least the Origins I can remember, anyway.


Most people wouldn't argue that Duncan was darkskinned. . .he looked like a typical fereldan.  Do you have toolset pictures of him to see if it was lighting issues?



Duncan was half Rivaini/half Fereldan.


I know this.  Barack Obama is half white.  I would not use him as an example as to what white people look like.

Modifié par Harid, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:35 .


#399
Dave of Canada

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Duncan:

Image IPB

#400
drahelvete

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Mecha Tengu wrote...

LOTR was rascist

a story that took place in ancient continental europe had white people and arabs but no black africans

BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWww


What do you call the men of Far Harad?