448 réponses à ce sujet

[drahelvete]

This thread has really derailed.
Let's just agree that Everything Is Racist and call it a day.

[Ninja Mage]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So Duncan doesn't count as a good portrayal as a black character because he passes as white to you?

Come on dave, Duncan and Isabela don't look Black. Let's bring it back to Sheva Alomar in Resident Evil 5

Black Hair:No
Dark Skin:Yes
Dark Features: Yes

Why is Sheva Alomar acceptable and Duncan and Isabela aren't? Because she looks Black, and isn't in the ambiguously grey area, despite having light colored skin.

Modifié par Ninja Mage, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:55 .

[wwwwowwww]

Why do you feel the need to have someone, of any specific race, singled out as good and or bad?

This is about as pathetic ploy at getting attention as I've seen.

[In Exile]

Wicked 702 wrote...
Except that Harid isn't white. And your statement is totally bigoted.

I am aware. And you might not be reading closely. What I said was that there is an ingrained notion, historically, that if someone came from a mixed-race background they couldn't not be white and belong to the other race. This is in itself a racist notion. That was what I wanted to point out.

So I have no idea what you're talking about.

Harid wrote...

Well in the US, bigoted or no, the One Drop
Rule still persists, so I wouldn't expect a company full of (largely)
white writers to make a character who could pass for white as a shining
example of the goodness of dark skinned protagionists.  They aren't
stupid.  Which I suppose, was my point about using Duncan as such.

I don't disagree. I was just pointing out that racism is a complicated issue. I have done some academic research in intergroup relations (i.e. stereotyping) and one finding is that mixed-race backgrounds experience more and unique discrimiantion compared to single race groups. For example, for AA programs in the US, biracial individuals are dramatically excluded despite the fact that they face similar social pressures to their minority parent. This is a major issue that gets no attention.

Lots of issues are really often swept to the side in race debates, and undercuts the tremendous social problem that is the coherent response to racism.

So, for example, saying that Obama isn't the right example of majority wheras Isabella/Duncan are the wrong example of minority just plays into this one particular narrative of race relations.

Once you start talking about the right way to something (like one poster was talking about what it really means to look black) you start excluding people. And that's dangerous.

[AngelicMachinery]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Duncan:

there is something extremely eerie about this image.

[In Exile]

Ninja Mage wrote..
Come on dave, Duncan and Isabela don't look Black. Let's bring it back to Sheva Alomar in Resident Evil 5

Black Hair:No
Dark Skin:Yes
Dark Features: Yes

Why is Sheva Alomar acceptable and Duncan and Isabela aren't? Because she looks Black, and isn't in the amiguously grey area, despite having light colored skin.

I haven't played RE5, but a google search (using this image): 

She looks latino to me.

Modifié par In Exile, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:54 .

[Face of Evil]

See, this is why we should just make everyone blue and be done with it.

[Wicked 702]

Ziggeh wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

Except that Harid isn't white. And your statement is totally bigoted.

Erm, neither of those sentences relate to anything he said.

How not so? In Exile is claiming that Harid's statement of not using Obama as a "white" example stems from a white majority bias. I felt that implied he was a part of that bias, hence the first sentence.

And the statement is clearly bigoted. Claiming that a "majority" of such and such feel a certain way, without scientific evidence, is idiotic. (And yes, I'm not changing that word. It's IDIOTIC.) How dare he perpetuate the falsehood that the "majority of white people have a bias." What a crock!

[upsettingshorts]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

there is something extremely eerie about this image.

Someone should make a demotivator out of it with the caption "MASTER THE TAINT."

[AlexXIV]

In Exile wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote..
Come on dave, Duncan and Isabela don't look Black. Let's bring it back to Sheva Alomar in Resident Evil 5

Black Hair:No
Dark Skin:Yes
Dark Features: Yes

Why is Sheva Alomar acceptable and Duncan and Isabela aren't? Because she looks Black, and isn't in the amiguously grey area, despite having light colored skin.

I haven't played RE5, but a google search (using this image): 

She looks latino to me.

Looks hot to me.

[TJPags]

Harid wrote...

According to you?  It's great you hold that opinion, as people can think whatever they like, but clearly it's an issue to some people, and acting like your opinion is paramount is a selfish way of thinking.  if you are going to contine to add nothing new to the thread though, you are just arguing in circles, and if that's the case I am done with you.

I think this quote pretty much sums up everyone in this thread.

[Stanley Woo]

RohanD wrote...

Stanley, it's thought processes like these that help maintain the status quo in the media. You can say, "it's just a game" then say "it's just a tv show" then say "it's just a movie" and sooner or later, you're really just saying "You know what, I don't care if every single form of media represents an outdated, world view which was born out of and continues to represent the shadows of imperialism. In fact, I'm totally cool with that and will not stand up against it in any way, shape or form". That's pretty weak in my opinion. The same goes for the representation of women in games, where I think Bioware has done a little better.

Oh, RohanD, please tell me you didn't stop just short of calling me a racist sympathizer after everything I've already posted to this thread.

I'm not asking "why didn't?" I am asking "why couldn't?". Why couldn't there have been at least one positive character with dark skin?

Why does there need to be?

What was stopping you? It's fantasy right, so you can make it any way you like.

So we did. Why do we need to make it the way you like?

What was the reason for this decision, or was it that simply there was no thought put into breaking the stereotypes which have existed in fantasy since Tolkien's time?

I'm pretty sure we aren't obligated to justify our creative process to each person who disagrees with us. Suffice it to say that we created a luxury entertainment product the way we wanted, and it was received very well and received many awards. We would consider that some measure of success in a history of such successes. That's about it.

I can tell you, though, that at no time was there ever a meeting, email, conversation, or workflow which consisted of "do we include black people (y/n)?" "No."

The world has changed, its media needs to change with it.

It may, at that, but it's not going to do so through a handful of people making unreasonable demands and accusations to a single content creator... especially not due to an internet disagreement. You want real change? Join an advocacy group or related non-profit organization and get involved with like-minded people who are actively working to effect change. Telling a random BioWarian that they're wrong ultimately accomplishes nothing towards your goal.

[Xewaka]

Harid wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
They'd call themselves "The Roman Empire" or "The Crusaders" (Depending on which time you want to set it), and they would be the main antagonists.

Given how much white people like to throw around the term "White Guilt" nowadays, I guarantee you that no one would have the stones to make a game where you played minorities and white people were the villains.  Such a game wouldn't be funded and would bomb if made.  The closest thing to ever come to this was Suikoden 3, and the Japanese aren't good enough writers nor have the history to explore this subject properly.

Well that's a pity. I'm a white spaniard and I'd love to play a game like that. Then again, white guilt is something that happens to saxons, not spaniards.

[Morroian]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

So Duncan doesn't count as a good portrayal as a black character because he passes as white to you?

Come on dave, Duncan and Isabela don't look Black.

Don't look caucasian either.

[AlexXIV]

I don't think he calls you a sypathizer but rather a tolerater. I'd even agree that one shouldn't tolerate everything, but since it is DA2 we are talking about it is a bit out of place.

[Ziggeh]

Harid wrote...

This is FANTASY.  Any race could be doing anything, but most fantasy excludes minorites altogether.

Ah, well, it's traditional fantasy, rather than merely fantastical, which is derived from tolkien which is derived from european mythology. So the problem is rather built into the genre.

[AlexXIV]

Morroian wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

So Duncan doesn't count as a good portrayal as a black character because he passes as white to you?

Come on dave, Duncan and Isabela don't look Black.

Don't look caucasian either.

Define caucasian. If arabic people are caucasians, then yes, they look caucasian.

[henkez3]

Stanley Woo wrote...

RohanD wrote...

Stanley, it's thought processes like these that help maintain the status quo in the media. You can say, "it's just a game" then say "it's just a tv show" then say "it's just a movie" and sooner or later, you're really just saying "You know what, I don't care if every single form of media represents an outdated, world view which was born out of and continues to represent the shadows of imperialism. In fact, I'm totally cool with that and will not stand up against it in any way, shape or form". That's pretty weak in my opinion. The same goes for the representation of women in games, where I think Bioware has done a little better.

Oh, RohanD, please tell me you didn't stop just short of calling me a racist sympathizer after everything I've already posted to this thread.

I'm not asking "why didn't?" I am asking "why couldn't?". Why couldn't there have been at least one positive character with dark skin?

Why does there need to be?

What was stopping you? It's fantasy right, so you can make it any way you like.

So we did. Why do we need to make it the way you like?

What was the reason for this decision, or was it that simply there was no thought put into breaking the stereotypes which have existed in fantasy since Tolkien's time?

I'm pretty sure we aren't obligated to justify our creative process to each person who disagrees with us. Suffice it to say that we created a luxury entertainment product the way we wanted, and it was received very well and received many awards. We would consider that some measure of success in a history of such successes. That's about it.

I can tell you, though, that at no time was there ever a meeting, email, conversation, or workflow which consisted of "do we include black people (y/n)?" "No."

The world has changed, its media needs to change with it.

It may, at that, but it's not going to do so through a handful of people making unreasonable demands and accusations to a single content creator... especially not due to an internet disagreement. You want real change? Join an advocacy group or related non-profit organization and get involved with like-minded people who are actively working to effect change. Telling a random BioWarian that they're wrong ultimately accomplishes nothing towards your goal.

Words of wisdom my friends.

[sagmann20]

[quote]Harid wrote...

[quote]sagmann20 wrote...

I think this is an example of black people overplaying the race card. And before you jump down my throat I am black...very black and very keen on issues of race in various different forms. I however think it would be weird to have a game obviously themed somewhere in old Europe, in which there are dark skinned peoples, and or even brown skinned peoples walking around the regular population all with English/French/anythingbutethnic accents. Maybe its because we werent wandering around old England...with the blights and the plagues and the famines and the drakspawn and the evil magics and such...We were far away on a beach... or enjoying the shade of a baobob tree...maybe building some pyramids. Its just a game.[/quote]

I don't care what race you are, but throwing out the supposed "race card" doesn't help discourse, or well, anything, so shove it up your ass and get out of the thread if you don't have a cogent point to make here.

This is FANTASY.  Any race could be doing anything, but most fantasy excludes minorites altogether.  It's not pulling the race card to expose a truth, or asking for it to be changed.  That's just a diversionary tactic used to simplify an argument and it has no place here.


So if i decided to write a fantasy story/game based on Asian mythology you would expect it to look like new york city or something? a rainbow of colors everyone with chinese accents? You're basically angry at a bunch of white guys for making a game based on what they know...other white guys? This discussion is a waste of time, i'll save my ire for real racism...

[In Exile]

Wicked 702 wrote..
How not so? In Exile is claiming that Harid's statement of not using Obama as a "white" example stems from a white majority bias. I felt that implied he was a part of that bias, hence the first sentence.

I didn't, so you're wrong.

And the statement is clearly bigoted. Claiming that a "majority" of such and such feel a certain way, without scientific evidence, is idiotic. (And yes, I'm not changing that word. It's IDIOTIC.) How dare he perpetuate the falsehood that the "majority of white people have a bias." What a crock!

I didn't claim a majority of people feel or felt this way.

For reference, the One Drop Rule:

The one-drop rule is a historical colloquial term in the United States for the
social classification as black of individuals with any African ancestry; it is an example of hypodescent,
the automatic assignment of children of a mixed union between different
socioeconomic or ethnic groups to the group with the lower status.[1]

Similarly in the United States, people of partial Native American descent
were usually classified as Native American.

The concept of the one-drop rule has been chiefly applied to those of
sub-Saharan black African ancestry. The poet Langston Hughes wrote in his 1940 memoir:

You see, unfortunately, I am not black. There are lots of different
kinds of blood in our family. But here in the United States, the word
'******' is used to mean anyone who has any ****** blood at all in his
veins. In Africa, the word is more pure. It means all ******, therefore
black. I am brown.[3]

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia....i/One-drop_rule

There are other gems, like the Racial Integrity Act:

On March 20, 1924 the Virginia General Assembly (United
States) passed two laws that had arisen out of contemporary
concerns about eugenics and race:
SB 219, entitled "The Racial Integrity Act[1]"
and SB 281, "An ACT to provide for the sexual sterilization of
inmates of State institutions in certain cases", henceforth referred
to as "The Sterilization Act".
The Racial Integrity Act required that a racial description of every
person be recorded at birth and divided society into only two
classifications: white and colored (all other, essentially, which
included numerous American Indians). It
defined race by the "one-drop
rule", defining as colored persons with any African or Indian
ancestry. It also expanded the scope of Virginia's ban on interracial
marriage (anti-miscegenation
law) by criminalizing all marriages between white persons and
non-white persons. In 1967 the law was overturned by the United States
Supreme Court in its ruling on Loving v. Virginia.

I'm sorry, but the white majority in the United States did absolutely abhorent things to maintain "racial purity". This is not a matter of debate but historical fact.

[Wicked 702]

In Exile wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...
Except that Harid isn't white. And your statement is totally bigoted.

I am aware. And you might not be reading closely. What I said was that there is an ingrained notion, historically, that if someone came from a mixed-race background they couldn't not be white and belong to the other race. This is in itself a racist notion. That was what I wanted to point out.

So I have no idea what you're talking about.

At no point in the original sentence did you use the term "historical." You referred simply to a "majority white bias." Are you implying that such a bias still exists today or are you speaking strictly from the historical perspective?

If it's #1, we've got a serious disagreement.
If it's #2, what a difference a properly placed word makes.

[IRMcGhee]

In Exile wrote...
I haven't played RE5, but a google search (using this image): 

She looks latino to me.

She's supposed to be mixed race, part European and part African with a Brit accent. Think Thandie Newton.

Modifié par IRMcGhee, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:04 .

[AngelicMachinery]

AlexXIV wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

So Duncan doesn't count as a good portrayal as a black character because he passes as white to you?

Come on dave, Duncan and Isabela don't look Black.

Don't look caucasian either.

Define caucasian. If arabic people are caucasians, then yes, they look caucasian.

Arabic=Caucasian  my mind is blown.

[Stanley Woo]

I hate to do this, as it may look like I'm trying to get the last word in, but the last few pages have indicated that it's past time to close this thread as it's gotten way too heated. RohanD, or anyone, really, if you wish to respond to my post, please send it to me via private message. thank you, everyone.



End of line.