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[AlexXIV]

Reidbynature wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Whoopsie.

 
Oh dingbats!

The internet watches back... er I mean that website wrote

This is what we like to call a ‘community challenge’. Here is a player who raises some points, albeit in an aggressive, chip-on-the-shoulder way.

I didn't mean to seem like I had a chip on my shoulder.  That was not my frame of mind at the time.

Social challange?  Honestly I was just asking a question.

Aside from the fact that players do in fact derive value from role-playing avatars that suit their idealized self-image, which in fact may not be white, anglo-saxon Protestants

Note to self.  Unplug webcam and change census answers to 'Desmond Tutu' and 'Jedi'.

Personally I think this thread and that blog is all a bit 'storm in a teacup'.  I never said it had to be mandatory, just that it was weird considering some of the previous games content made the lack of diversity seem out of place and that maybe it wouldn't matter to let players play as whichever colour they chose.

Third time I write that in this thread.

In. DA:O. You. Can. Play. A. Character. In. Whichever. Color. You. Choose.

Well not purple or pink unless you play on PC and use a mod. But you have a scale from white to ... brownish.

[Deviija]

I don't find it a negative or ridiculous to want more representation of someone that is more like 'you' in the hobby/genre/games you enjoy. Especially in an industry where minorities are rarely portrayed -- or portrayed positively. Hiding behind the excuse that the 'world is just created that way' is just an excuse to me. Creators have the power to make their theme, game, and world inclusive.

[ENolan]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

Personally I think this thread and that blog is all a bit 'storm in a teacup'.  I never said it had to be mandatory, just that it was weird considering some of the previous games content made the lack of diversity seem out of place and that maybe it wouldn't matter to let players play as whichever colour they chose.

And i'm saying sure, but we don't hafta, and occasionally getting a little sarcastic. See, it all works out and we're still friends. dunno why people have to blow it all out of proportion on the internet.

It's the internet: it gives people strength in anonymity... But all in all, racial discussions get people fired up, even in stranger contexts.

[Khayness]

Shameless self quote from the 100 commendments of a BW fan thread

BioWare is racist, sexist and embraces offending stereotypes, because their games don't feature characters with all the real world equivalent of skintones, sexes, religions, occupations, freetime activities and a left handed version of them all!

Modifié par Khayness, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:17 .

[Reidbynature]

Aermas wrote...

African Americans were not the only slaves. Think of the Jews. They have been ostracized since they existed. Not to mention the countless Europeans that were inslaved to Rome. Slavery isn't limited to one race.

Also Duncan & Isabela are not caucasian, & the story takes place in an England/United Kingdom fantasy parallel, not in Asia or Africa, or America. Why not ask for native americans & Indians (from India) to be in Japanese fantasy parallels?

My point wasn't really about who were and were not slaves at some point in history.  My mind just goes to black slavery because that's the first example that comes to mind.  As is the case for most people because in the western world we learn about it at school.  It's what most people know.  As for native Americans and Inidans I didn't want to specify and I thought I pretty much covered them with the word asian.  I didn't think I'd have to specify which kind of asian.   People call Inians asians and considering there are countries like Pakistan and such next to them with people of a similar ethniciy (and not many Pakistans appreciate being labelled Indian) it's just easier to say asian.  So I'm probably a little bit ignorant in which word I use but I was just trying to encompass them all.

Stanley Woo wrote...

This would also be a good time to remind everyone to please be excellent to each other.

This.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:23 .

[AlexXIV]

Deviija wrote...

I don't find it a negative or ridiculous to want more representation of someone that is more like 'you' in the hobby/genre/games you enjoy. Especially in an industry where minorities are rarely portrayed -- or portrayed positively. Hiding behind the excuse that the 'world is just created that way' is just an excuse to me. Creators have the power to make their theme, game, and world inclusive.

And more like you means skin color? Because all black people are alike and all white people are alike? And there I thought we are all humans under our skin. Sorry but this is exactly my problem I have with this whole issue. Why do certain personality traits have to be linked to skin color? Especially in a fantasy world where people could as well be red and blue instead black and white.

Honestly, if in DA skin colors would range from red to blue, would people call Bioware out for not having green skinned people in the game?

Edit: My problem with black people in Thedas is that I wouldn't know where they come from. To have black skin their ancestors need to have lived in a warm land where they wore next to no clothes and they were exposed to sunlight alot. There is no other explaination for black skin.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:23 .

[Reidbynature]

AlexXIV wrote...

Third time I write that in this thread.

In. DA:O. You. Can. Play. A. Character. In. Whichever. Color. You. Choose.

Well not purple or pink unless you play on PC and use a mod. But you have a scale from white to ... brownish.

You have to settle for something that doesn't look convincing.  It's more of a ruddy complexion.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:27 .

[Zevais]

This planet that is part of the roleplay of Dragon Age is not Earth. Humans may have evolved or were created differently. Genetics may be different. Certain physical traits of appearance may not have arisen as they have on Earth. Stop being so egocentric.

In a number of centuries most people will be the same skin color with similar features anyhow due to our ability to breed widespread over Earth instead of being restricted to certain environments were certain traits helped and/or encourage survival.

If anything I think it would be more interesting to get non-human skin tones like blues and greens. I want to be as least human resembling as possible unless I am recreating myself or someone else I know.

Modifié par Zevais, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:29 .

[jpdipity]

AlexXIV wrote...

Third time I write that in this thread.

In. DA:O. You. Can. Play. A. Character. In. Whichever. Color. You. Choose.

Well not purple or pink unless you play on PC and use a mod. But you have a scale from white to ... brownish.

Have you ever made a character with the darker skin tones?  The color is awful which I think the OP notes.

The lack of diverse ethnic races in the game is understandable because it is a fantasy setting. 

However, I was very disappointed in how the game renders darker skin tones - they simply look bad and uneven.  Mods do not correct this issue.  It would have been nice to be able to create a darker skin tone character without them looking like a blackface caricature which certainly was not intentional by the designers in any way.  I am hopeful DAII corrects this.

Priestly is right - I would never avoid a fantasy game because of the lack of diverse real world ethnic backgrounds.

Modifié par jpdipity, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:29 .

[AlexXIV]

jpdipity wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Third time I write that in this thread.

In. DA:O. You. Can. Play. A. Character. In. Whichever. Color. You. Choose.

Well not purple or pink unless you play on PC and use a mod. But you have a scale from white to ... brownish.

Have you ever made a character with the darker skin tones?  The color is awful which I think the OP notes.

The lack of diverse ethnic races in the game is understandable because it is a fantasy setting. 

However, I was very disappointed in how the game renders darker skin tones - they simply look bad and uneven.  Mods do not correct this issue.  It would have been nice to be able to create a darker skin tone character without them looking like a blackface caricature which certainly was not intentional by the designers in any way.

Priestly is right - I would never avoid a fantasy game because of the lack of diverse real world ethnic backgrounds.

Well actually my female Dalish is white haired with the 2nd darkest color available. I didn't see the problem there. Maybe a picture helps where words fail? If I can see what you mean I might understand better.

[Tietj]

AlexXIV wrote...

And more like you means skin color? Because all black people are alike and all white people are alike? And there I thought we are all humans under our skin. Sorry but this is exactly my problem I have with this whole issue. Why do certain personality traits have to be linked to skin color? Especially in a fantasy world where people could as well be red and blue instead black and white.

Honestly, if in DA skin colors would range from red to blue, would people call Bioware out for not having green skinned people in the game?

Edit: My problem with black people in Thedas is that I wouldn't know where they come from. To have black skin their ancestors need to have lived in a warm land where they wore next to no clothes and they were exposed to sunlight alot. There is no other explaination for black skin.

Ok, but where do the Qunari come from?  We only see a very small area of the entire world in Dragon Age; it stands to reason that there are lands out there with warmer climates, and people do tend to migrate.  And I'm pretty sure that nobody is suggesting that black people are all alike or that white people are.  It's no different than males tending to play as males and females as females (with many, many exceptions, myself included occasionally).  People want to play as someone they relate to, given the option, so they choose their own gender.  It's not suggesting that all men are alike, or women. 

[Dave of Canada]

ciaweth wrote...

Whoopsie.

I facepalmed.

Three times when reading the original post, five times when reading the comments.

[Harid]

AlexXIV wrote...

Third time I write that in this thread.

In. DA:O. You. Can. Play. A. Character. In. Whichever. Color. You. Choose.

Well not purple or pink unless you play on PC and use a mod. But you have a scale from white to ... brownish.

But then ultimately, you are the only black person or asian person or latino person in the game.  It doesn't fix the inhernet problem.  YOU are ultimately the 'token' in that situation.  And ignoring all of that. . .skin tones in DA:O were awful.  You looked more like some dude of the Jersey Shore than a Black person for one. . .I could not imagine how bad other skin tones looked.

I love how people claim they wouldn't care if there was a world with only black people in it, given the huge vocal outcry pre San Andreas.  And while I am not saying every person on these board complained when that game was announced, enough people complained to the effect that I am sure that a lot people would not buy a fantasy game where they were forced to be a visible minority, not doing visible minority things, i.e. CJ being a thug, random Asian guy not doing Kung-fu, etc.  Because if it wasn't a problem there would not be the issue where the vast majority of fantasy doesn't even have minorities in their lore with the exception of maybe Forgotten Realms and Elder Scrolls.  I also find it funny an asian dev can joke about race when there aren't even asians in Dragon Age to begin with.  I don't really care what excuse he has to make though, but I know if I was a black writer I would push for a black region in the universe,  given what fantasy tends to churn out, but that's just me (provided it did not cost me my job, I know how the industry is nowadays.)

I think this is something white people take for granted.  The ability to see yourself, make believe or no.  And while this isn't a big deal for some minorities, it is for others, it's a complex issue of seeing people like you in video games, television and the media.  It's something that is getting worse over time, and I find it laughable that people can make jokes over a serious problem.

I like to post this picture because it's a serious problem that the HD gen has created, one where  video game creators make their video game protaganists all look the same to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

i27.tinypic.com/2mfwzdz.jpg

No, the lowest common denominator isn't white people.  I would argue it is focus groups.  But the same thing happens in every medium, so I suppose it's ok.  (It isn't and it's something that needs to be brought up more.)  Why do gamers have largely no problem playing one minority (women) and yet, not another (black, asian, hispanic)?  That would be an interesting thing to find an answer to.

But this isn't really an issue I take to heart with Bioware though. . .they've done more than most every other dev out there in terms of racial diversity and black (or black for their lore) characters, from Dynahier to Valygar, which is more than I can say for a lot of other companies.  Only reason I'm posting is because this is a problem with video games in general.

Modifié par Harid, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:40 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I love that Stan's the guy carrying the banner for sense and reason in this thread. Stan's a Chinese guy living in an incredibly white part of the world, so he (presumably) knows what it's like to stand out and be different and arguably even be marginalised and left out by virtue of that difference.

[Reidbynature]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

Do we know if DA2 will have a better range of racial diversity?  I was dissapointed that Dragon Age, a game that seem to use elves as an allegory for black slavery and the treatment of native Americans lacks any black or asian people.  That and it's a fictional fantasy world that's not based on anywhere specific so it just seems thoughtless to the point of discriminaton to not include other ethnicities.  Not to mention that the character creator doesn't really let you make a black or asian character with its messed up colour settings.

Will this be changed for DA2?

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I think you really look to hard for racial undertones in things. Should this really be a issue? It is a fictional game that should have no similarites to the real world, really. ANd in my personal opinion it is racist in and of it's self to go out of your way to catagorize things as you just did.

No fair enough.  You're being honest.  I strongly disgree with you calling me a racist.  I felt something was out of place and thought I'd voice my opinion.

I wasn't looking to be honest.  I just posted my thoughts on the game on a forum like every other poster here.  To me the elves slavery and the Dalish elves trying so hard rediscover/keep what elven lore they had just seemed as though they were meant to mirror things in our own past (not personal past, duh, but culturally speaking).  Those are amongst the most prominent and those were my cursory thoughts on the subject.  If I had thought about it much then I expect I may have come to the conclusion that others here have and that it could stand for other races, religion etc.

[Harid]

Reidbynature wrote...

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

Do we know if DA2 will have a better range of racial diversity?  I was dissapointed that Dragon Age, a game that seem to use elves as an allegory for black slavery and the treatment of native Americans lacks any black or asian people.  That and it's a fictional fantasy world that's not based on anywhere specific so it just seems thoughtless to the point of discriminaton to not include other ethnicities.  Not to mention that the character creator doesn't really let you make a black or asian character with its messed up colour settings.

Will this be changed for DA2?

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I think you really look to hard for racial undertones in things. Should this really be a issue? It is a fictional game that should have no similarites to the real world, really. ANd in my personal opinion it is racist in and of it's self to go out of your way to catagorize things as you just did.

No fair enough.  You're being honest.  I strongly disgree with you calling me a racist.  I felt something was out of place and thought I'd voice my opinion.

I wasn't looking to be honest.  I just posted my thoughts on the game on a forum like every other poster here.  To me the elves slavery and the Dalish elves trying so hard rediscover/keep what elven lore they had just seemed as though they were meant to mirror things in our own past (not personal past, duh, but culturally speaking).  Those are amongst the most prominent and those were my cursory thoughts on the subject.  If I had thought about it much then I expect I may have come to the conclusion that others here have and that it could stand for other races, religion etc.

Don't worry dude, it's what people do on the internet when race is brought up.  Don't worry.  if you made a post about women, people would be championing around you, as if they were your white knights.

[Maconbar]

I would say that if Thedas were a planet and not just a continent then the lack of diversity in the setting would bother me. My impression has been that Thedas isn't a terribly large continent and I wonder whether the inhabitants have a sense as to what other continents are out there. We haven't heard of any significant human migration in this setting, which would also in my mind weigh against significant diversity. If, however they created a future DA that was set in a tropical climate or on another continent and they all looked the same and exhibited the same set of cultures that we have observed on Thedas, I think that would be a failing on BWs part.

[ciaweth]

jpdipity wrote...
The lack of diverse ethnic races in the game is understandable because it is a fantasy setting. 

This explanation doesn't make sense to me.  Fantasy settings can have whatever you want in them, including diversity. 

I believe the devs have, both in this thread and previously, explained that there are lots of different kinds of humans in Thedas, and that DA1 looked homogeneous because Ferelden isn't that diverse.  If we'd zeroed in on a different region, the makeup of the population would have looked different.  That is an acceptable explanation for me, but the implication that "fantasy settings" necessarily only have pale skinned people is not.  The fact that historically, the Western fantasy genre has focused on Anglos does not validate or necessitate its continuing to do so now.

However, I was very disappointed in how the game renders darker skin tones - they simply look bad and uneven.  Mods do not correct this issue.  It would have been nice to be able to create a darker skin tone character without them looking like a blackface caricature which certainly was not intentional by the designers in any way.  I am hopeful DAII corrects this.

Agreed.  I opted for a dark-skinned Warden and it looked like she'd ordered the wrong color foundation makeup from Mary Kay.  It looked derpy. 

Priestly is right - I would never avoid a fantasy game because of the lack of diverse real world ethnic backgrounds.

Eh.  I wouldn't avoid it, but I certainly notice it.  And if a company consistently churns out content that appears to purposely ignore things that I find important, I become less enthusiastic about their games.  It's an erosion effect rather than a binary on-off switch for me.  (FWIW, I suffer the same kind of erosion of enthusiasm if blatant tokenism is present.)

Modifié par ciaweth, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:43 .

[Harid]

I'd really like to know where all of this blatant tokenism comes up in video games, like. . .with real world examples; because people always tend to bring it up but then cannot back it up in these types of threads.

Modifié par Harid, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:47 .

[DaringMoosejaw]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

BioWare is getting it wrong. They should totally release a Dragon Age: White Edition and a Dragon Age: Straight Edition for those who feel intimidated by non-white ethnicity and homosexuality, respectively.
I'm so smart sometimes, I scare myself.

Better idea: Make a toggle.

Put it under Gameplay with a box, check 'No Blacks' and 'No Gays'!

[AlanC9]

Harid wrote...
.
  I don't really care what excuse he has to make though, but I know if I was a black writer I would push for a black region in the universe,  given what fantasy tends to churn out, but that's just me.

You think there isn't a black region somewhere on the DA planet? On what evidence?

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:54 .

[Andferne]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I love that Stan's the guy carrying the banner for sense and reason in this thread.

Co-signed.

[Harid]

AlanC9 wrote...

Harid wrote...
.
  I don't really care what excuse he has to make though, but I know if I was a black writer I would push for a black region in the universe,  given what fantasy tends to churn out, but that's just me.

You think there isn't a black region somewhere in Thedas? On what evidence?

No, I don't think there's an asian region.  Which there isn't, at least known to the gaming public.  Whoosh to that point over your head.  I know there is a black region, it's Rivain.

Modifié par Harid, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:55 .