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[AlexXIV]

Harid wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Third time I write that in this thread.

In. DA:O. You. Can. Play. A. Character. In. Whichever. Color. You. Choose.

Well not purple or pink unless you play on PC and use a mod. But you have a scale from white to ... brownish.

But then ultimately, you are the only black person or asian person or latino person in the game.  It doesn't fix the inhernet problem.  YOU are ultimately the 'token' in that situation.  And ignoring all of that. . .skin tones in DA:O were awful.  You looked more like some dude of the Jersey Shore than a Black person for one. . .I could not imagine how bad other skin tones looked.

I love how people claim they wouldn't care if there was a world with only black people in it, given the huge vocal outcry pre San Andreas.  And while I am not saying every person on these board complained when that game was announced, enough people complained to the effect that I am sure that a lot people would not buy a fantasy game where they were forced to be a visible minority, not doing visible minority things, i.e. CJ being a thug, random Asian guy not doing Kung-fu, etc.  Because if it wasn't a problem there would not be the issue where the vast majority of fantasy doesn't even have minorities in their lore with the exception of maybe Forgotten Realms and Elder Scrolls.  I also find it funny an asian dev can joke about race when there aren't even asians in Dragon Age to begin with.  I don't really care what excuse he has to make though, but I know if I was a black writer I would push for a black region in the universe,  given what fantasy tends to churn out, but that's just me (provided it did not cost me my job, I know how the industry is nowadays.)

I think this is something white people take for granted.  The ability to see yourself, make believe or no.  And while this isn't a big deal for some minorities, it is for others, it's a complex issue of seeing people like you in video games, television and the media.  It's something that is getting worse over time, and I find it laughable that people can make jokes over a serious problem.

I like to post this picture because it's a serious problem that the HD gen has created, one where  video game creators make their video game protaganists all look the same to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

i27.tinypic.com/2mfwzdz.jpg

No, the lowest common denominator isn't white people.  I would argue it is focus groups.  But the same thing happens in every medium, so I suppose it's ok.  (It isn't and it's something that needs to be brought up more.)  Why do gamers have largely no problem playing one minority (women) and yet, not another (black, asian, hispanic)?  That would be an interesting thing to find an answer to.

But this isn't really an issue I take to heart with Bioware though. . .they've done more than most every other dev out there in terms of racial diversity and black (or black for their lore) characters, from Dynahier to Valygar, which is more than I can say for a lot of other companies.  Only reason I'm posting is because this is a problem with video games in general.

Well I can only speak for myself. My Dalish looked black, black as Beyonce or Rihanna. Not black as the night of course, since that was never my intention anyway. If there is a problem with colors as they don't look good I'd agree. But that's not exactly the topic of this thread. The story plays in Ferelden, so yes, you'd be one among very few black people, because Fereldans generally ain't black. Even my Wardens all were a bit darker than the average Fereldan. Because super white people look a bit sickly for me, or as if they never leave the cellar much. Like the Couslands for example.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with playing a black character, since as I said, I even did in DA:O without it being forced on me. I don't know what exactly was wrong with the only black companion in ME2 though, Jacob, but I didn't like him. But I really don't think it was the skin color. Bioware is probably the most progressive gaming company when it is about racial and sexual equality.

[Reidbynature]

Zevais wrote...

This planet that is part of the roleplay of Dragon Age is not Earth. Humans may have evolved or were created differently. Genetics may be different. Certain physical traits of appearance may not have arisen as they have on Earth. Stop being so egocentric.

I'm egocentric because I would like to see people other than msyelf represented in a fantasy setting that I don't believe has any meaningful barriers for inclusion?

In a number of centuries most people will be the same skin color with similar features anyhow due to our ability to breed widespread over Earth instead of being restricted to certain environments were certain traits helped and/or encourage survival.

You've lost yourself here, but while we're here I hereby voice my resolve to help make that world happen.  Ladies, who's with me?

..... ladies?

If anything I think it would be more interesting to get non-human skin tones like blues and greens. I want to be as least human resembling as possible unless I am recreating myself or someone else I know.

I wouldn't say no.  It's fantasy.  Imagination is limitless (but your budget may not be).

Harid wrote...

Don't worry dude, it's what people do on the internet when race is brought up.  Don't worry.  if you made a post about women, people would be championing around you, as if they were your white knights.

Thanks man.  It doesn't worry me much.  It's a free forum I can't post and not have a thick skin about things.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:58 .

[upsettingshorts]

Harid wrote...

I love how people claim they wouldn't care if there was a world with only black people in it, given the huge vocal outcry pre San Andreas. 

I'm not responsible for the outrage of others.  I liked San Andreas.

Harid wrote...

I think this is something white people take for granted. 

Most definitely.

Harid wrote...

I like to post this picture because it's a serious problem that the HD gen has created, one where  video game creators make their video game protaganists all look the same to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Lowest common denominator implies "largest number of stupid people."  I think a better way of putting it would be "broadest potential appeal to customers" who are predominantly white men.  But that doesn't really alter your point much,

[AngelicMachinery]

Deviija wrote...

Honestly, if in DA skin colors would range from red to blue, would people call Bioware out for not having green skinned people in the game?

Are you seriously going to use such an absurd argument?  This has no logical basis in reality I can't really see people being miffed about it.  On the other hand using real human color differentian will push buttons.  I can only assume that certain people enjoy using avatars that are similiar to themselves.   I do understand that of course Dragon Age is in a setting where there is a distinct lack of people of color (Except um,  I'm not sure of the name...  the gypsy people that Isabella belongs to, and she just looks like a dark skinned itallian really.) I also understand that there is a reason for that as well.

Simply saying,  please don't jump down someone's throat because they suggest something that might make the game more pleasurable to them when it obviously wasn't meant to be inflamatory.  Bioware has proven to be progressive in the past and I expect that they will continue to be in the future.  I would not be so surprised if we started to see people of varying shades as different portions of the game world are explored.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 04 janvier 2011 - 10:03 .

[Stanley Woo]

As a lifelong Chinese-Canadian, I'm enthusiastic about shows that feature Asian actors and characters in prominent guest roles and recurring roles and make it a special thing. But do you know what I appreciate even more? When shows do that and it's not treated as a special thing, because that means race, "diversity" and "fairness" aren't seen as requiring attention and we can just live in harmony with each other as people.



Do I care that Dragon Age II probably won't have any Asian-themed characters? heck, no! It's an awesome game by an awesome company set in an awesome world, developed by awesome people.



Am i concerned that I won't be able to feel represented by my PC or the story/setting? Heck no! I am defined by more than just my race. i have my height, my roguish nature, my love of fantasy, wish fulfillment, and lifelong love of sword-and-sorcery. I also have a love of good story and the triumph of good over evil.You know what wouldn't have represented me? Jade Empire with non-Asian themed names. but that's just how far you'd have to get for me to not find something in a game that represents me.



Do I think a game/story/setting is racist for not including Asian characters or themes? Heck no, i would think the opposite. Not everything is about me. sometimes it's about the black guy over there or the Jewish girl over there or, and I know this is a radical concept, the white guys all around me.



I know people feel very strongly about them, but ultimately, It's. A. Game. And games have their own internal consistency and rules. I don't have to like all the rules in order to play the game, and in some games, i can even modify the rules, so I'll accept that. Some folks may wish to die on this particular hill, but there are far bigger and more important ones where I'll hang my hat. but again, that's just my opinion.



thanks for the great discussion, all.

[Reidbynature]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Just like to clarify, something that you misunderstood. I wasn't calling you a racist. I was saying your actions in catagorizing the fictional NPCs as you did seemed racist. (Just like saying all african americans are gangsters or the sterotypical cereal killer is a single white male is racist and sterotypical comment) Again I'm not to say you are racist. If that makes sense to you. 

That said, I just think your diving too deeply into what Bioware did there.  I think Bioware created that fictional situation to create morality choices and what have you. Not to specifically mirror any real life events.

You say what I did was racist, but I'm not a racist myself.  That sounds a bit like cake and eat it.  It stil feels like you're labelling me as one.  I mean you seriously didn't think that if someone applies slavery and a tribe like culture that's currently being persecuted by another culture to a specific race that people aren't going to immediately think about the most prominent examples in their own cultures history?  It's very simple concept that people can recognise because in the western world those things are taught in school from an early age.  And you call that racist?  Or are your posts simply meant as a wind up?

[soteria]

ciaweth wrote...

...The fact that historically, the Western fantasy genre has focused on Anglos does not validate or necessitate its continuing to do so now.

I don't know about that. I don't expect writers from other cultures or geographical regions to write my culture or race into their work. Or are you saying that only Western writers need to diversify because they're the majority?

[soteria]

You say what I did was racist, but I'm not a racist myself.

Is it possible to tell a lie, but not be a liar? Must a single action label a person?

[AlexXIV]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Deviija wrote...

Honestly, if in DA skin colors would range from red to blue, would people call Bioware out for not having green skinned people in the game?

Are you seriously going to use such an absurd argument?  This has no logical basis in reality I can't really see people being miffed about it.  On the other hand using real human color differentian will push buttons.  I can only assume that certain people enjoy using avatars that are similiar to themselves.   I do understand that of course Dragon Age is in a setting where there is a distinct lack of people of color (Except um,  I'm not sure of the name...  the gypsy people that Isabella belongs to, and she just looks like a dark skinned itallian really.) I also understand that there is a reason for that as well.

Simply saying,  please don't jump down someone's throat because they suggest something that might make the game more pleasurable to them when it obviously wasn't meant to be inflamatory.  Bioware has proven to be progressive in the past and I expect that they will continue to be in the future.  I would not be so surprised if we started to see people of varying shades as different portions of the game world are explored.

Well I guess you are talking to me since I was the one writing this and not the guy you quoted.

I jump down throats as I see fit. People argue it is a fantasy game so Ferelden could be multicultural, at the same time they claim Bioware are real life racists for not doing it. If that makes sense to you, fine. Doesn't to me. We either talk about real life or a fantasy game, but we don't switch back and forth just so it servers our purpose better.

[Harid]

soteria wrote...

ciaweth wrote...
...The fact that historically, the Western fantasy genre has focused on Anglos does not validate or necessitate its continuing to do so now.

I don't know about that. I don't expect writers from other cultures or geographical regions to write my culture or race into their work. Or are you saying that only Western writers need to diversify because they're the majority?

I would argue that writers from other cultures and backgrounds already do, so western (let's not mince words, white) writers need to do the same.

Even for example, black sitcoms (not written by Tyler Perry) tend to have more diversity that white ones.

And like I've stated before one of the best black shows ever written the Wire, was largely written by a white guy.  It can be done.

[AlexXIV]

soteria wrote...

You say what I did was racist, but I'm not a racist myself.

Is it possible to tell a lie, but not be a liar? Must a single action label a person?

Truth is probably that all people are liars to a certain extent, and probably also racists to a certain extent. It just depends how closely you look and how forgiving you are.

[AngelicMachinery]

I might not have read this thread over enough, but I seen no one suggest bioware was being racist. I saw a desire for a minority group to be represented. The one does not necessarily go hand in hand with the other.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 04 janvier 2011 - 10:20 .

[Harid]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I might not have read this thread over enough, but I seen no one suggest bioware ware was being racist. I saw a desire for a minority group to be represented. The one does not necessarily go hand in hand with the other.

it's a strawman that is always held up, then diverted down in these types of threads to get them inevitably locked.

[Reidbynature]

soteria wrote...

You say what I did was racist, but I'm not a racist myself.

Is it possible to tell a lie, but not be a liar? Must a single action label a person?

Doesn't matter if you lied once or you stole or used drugs people may feell they have the right to call you a lier, a thief or drug user.  Just because it's doesn't include all your are or was in the past it doesn't stop people from using that and labelling you with it.  So I'm not too keen to be labelled as one.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 04 janvier 2011 - 10:21 .

[Harid]

Reidbynature wrote...

soteria wrote...

You say what I did was racist, but I'm not a racist myself.

Is it possible to tell a lie, but not be a liar? Must a single action label a person?

 Doesn't matter if you lied once or you stole or used drugs people may feell they have the right to call you a thief or drug user.  Just because it's doesn't include all your are or was in the past it doesn't stop people from using that and labelling you with it.  So I'm not too keen to be labelled as one.

You are falling into the trap, dude.  Ignore strawman arguments and move on, lest they ruin the thread.

[Ninja Mage]

I don't think this should turn into a joke Topic. I'm Black/Native American/Irish and It's kinda stupid Isabela looks like a white person with really dark skin. I mean come on. She doesn't even look dark in the trailer. Why aren't there other races in this game??? It's called real life in video games, and yes I would like people who aren't white in the game.

[Reidbynature]

Harid wrote...

You are falling into the trap, dude.  Ignore strawman arguments and move on, lest they ruin the thread.

Thanks.  I needed that.  I did feel like my head was up against a few brick walls lately.

[AlexXIV]

Ninja Mage wrote...

I don't think this should turn into a joke Topic. I'm Black/Native American/Irish and It's kinda stupid Isabela looks like a white person with really dark skin. I mean come on. She doesn't even look dark in the trailer. Why aren't there other races in this game??? It's called real life in video games, and yes I would like people who aren't white in the game.

I'd agree on Isabella. I liked her old looks also because it looked 'exotic'. Now it looks 'british with a dark tan'. Especially though her new thin lips disturb me.

[upsettingshorts]

Ninja Mage wrote...

I don't think this should turn into a joke Topic. I'm Black/Native American/Irish and It's kinda stupid Isabela looks like a white person with really dark skin.

Why is it stupid if she's not supposed to be black?  Do "white people with really dark skin" as you put it not exist?  She comes from the same country as Duncan's mother. 

Silly, unrelated argument is silly. 

AlexXIV wrote...

I'd agree on Isabella. I liked her old looks also because it looked 'exotic'. Now it looks 'british with a dark tan'. Especially though her new thin lips disturb me.

...you know what, I'm not even going to bother. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 janvier 2011 - 10:24 .

[Russalka]

Strategically placed minorities in films, series and other entertainment does not seem very right to me. And trying to force a creative process to include more minorities can cause that.

[Harid]

Ninja Mage wrote...

I don't think this should turn into a joke Topic. I'm Black/Native American/Irish and It's kinda stupid Isabela looks like a white person with really dark skin. I mean come on. She doesn't even look dark in the trailer. Why aren't there other races in this game??? It's called real life in video games, and yes I would like people who aren't white in the game.

I don't particularly care if Isabela is representative of the darkest or lightest skin color Rivain has to offer, as there is a range for Black people, from Rihanna to Wesley Snipes, but if there is a range, I'd like to see it represented in game; the thing that a lot of game makers tend to do is lighten skin colors to the point of absurdity, in order to appeal to 'western beauty.'  Look at, say Vanessa Lewis in the Virtua Fighter series, with her Sammy Sosa vitiligo between VF4 and VF5.

It's wrong to say they aren't 'black enough', but conversely, they should not be the only representation in game either.  A lot of Devs don't seem to understand this point.

Modifié par Harid, 04 janvier 2011 - 10:27 .

[AlexXIV]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

I don't think this should turn into a joke Topic. I'm Black/Native American/Irish and It's kinda stupid Isabela looks like a white person with really dark skin.

Why is it stupid if she's not supposed to be black?  Do "white people with really dark skin" as you put it not exist?  She comes from the same country as Duncan's mother. 

Silly, unrelated argument is silly. 

AlexXIV wrote...

I'd agree on Isabella. I liked her old looks also because it looked 'exotic'. Now it looks 'british with a dark tan'. Especially though her new thin lips disturb me.

...you know what, I'm not even going to bother. 

It's a matter of taste. And I admit that I don't like if things get changed from something I liked to something I don't like. That's nothing surprising though. Or is it?

[AlanC9]

Reidbynature wrote...

I'm egocentric because I would like to see people other than msyelf represented in a fantasy setting that I don't believe has any meaningful barriers for inclusion?

I find the italicized part highly questionable. But that doesn't make you egocentric; merely wrong.

[Harid]

Russalka wrote...

Strategically placed minorities in films, series and other entertainment does not seem very right to me. And trying to force a creative process to include more minorities can cause that.

See, people say things like this, but then conversely, don't complain about say, Friends being set in New York, yet not even having Black, Asian, whatever extras until minorities complained about the fact that that isn't a real representation of New York.

So you mind tokenism, but conversely, don't mind whitewashing.

Not saying this about you, but that is how I always read this.

[Ninja Mage]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

[Why is it stupid if she's not supposed to be black?  Do "white people with really dark skin" as you put it not exist?  She comes from the same country as Duncan's mother. 

Silly, unrelated argument is silly. 

[

She does look like a british or spanish person with a tan. Absolutely. If she's suppose to be from Rivain, they failed. Might as well give Alistair a tan and say he's from Rivain too