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[Saibh]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes exactly. But the fact that you find them period, and that they're willing to stick with you and fall in love with you to begin with is already unlikely. And what's to stop 4 of them from being bisexual?  4 people that you meet out of the dozens?

As I said, for every companion that you meet that's special, there are a dozen more who are just as unique. If not more so. I can't compare the liklihood of meeting lyrium-infused Tevinter slave elves because they don't exist in the real world. Bisexuality does.

As I expressed earlier, it is egregiously noticable. Do these people finding you attractive strike me as unlikely, and an odd coincidence? Sure. But it's not so noticable as of all these people, they just so happen to be bisexual, too.

And yeah the people you have with you do not have to be as unique and special as the NPCs are in DA2 to be useful. You could just as easily have skilled combatants without any special powers and they could still be useful to Hawke's cause. Or Hawke can just ally himself with NPCs (and non-companions) that are special and unique. (And Hawke probably will).

They could be, that's true. But Fenris can phase, Anders has Vengeance, Merrill has blood magic, and Isabela honed her dueling skills for years, and it is unique to her. They are unique, and someone very skilled with a 2H, or with magic, or with DW still wouldn't have the unique abilities of your companions. For instance, your siblings are normal people. There's nothing really terribly special about them--and they don't have their own talent tree. They are with you because they are your siblings.

See while DAO's companions were unique it wasn't to such a degree as DA2's companions. Yeah Leliana and Zev were assassins (and bards) but those are common where they come from. There is nothing at all common about any of Da2's companions.

True. That happened to be necessity. DAO was driven by the need to end the Blight. You couldn't be picky. You just picked up people who offered themselves. Hawke doesn't need his companions. There's no ancient evil to defeat. Just you rising to power.

Modifié par Saibh, 04 mars 2011 - 05:23 .

[Mack Besmirch]

kthim wrote...

My Avatar is a Lizard wrote...

And in DA1 we only met 2 Openly Bi sexual characters out of a cast of 100's it seemed to me most people in Origns were straight.

Most were straight yes, but we didn't just meet 2 that were bisexuals. There's Zevran, Leliana, Dairren, Iona and Isabela.

Not to mention Wade and Herren that are a couple.

and branka and hespith!

[Fidget6]

Ryzaki wrote...
And what's to stop 4 of them from being bisexual?  4 people that you meet out of the dozens? 

I have more than four bisexual friends, and I don't go out actively seeking bisexuals. 

[Ryzaki]

Saibh wrote...

As I said, for every companion that you meet that's special, there are a dozen more who are just as unique. If not more so. I can't compare the liklihood of meeting lyrium-infused Tevinter slave elves because they don't exist in the real world. Bisexuality does.

I see. I don't agree with it but I kind of see where you're coming from

As I expressed earlier, it is egregiously noticable. Do these people finding you attractive strike me as unlikely, and an odd coincidence? Sure. But it's not so noticable as of all these people, they just so happen to be bisexual. Bisexuals are even less likely than gays or lesbians.

To me it's only 4 people. Four bisexual people finding you attractive isn't egregious by any stretch to me. Especially not out of the dozens of NPCs in DA2. 

And maybe they are. But this is also in socieities that marganilize if not outright opress gays/lesbians. So I don't think it would be comparable to a society that merely finds them strange but otherwise doesn't care. 

They could be, that's true. But Fenris can phase, Anders has Vengeance, Merrill has blood magic, and Isabela honed her dueling skills for years, and it is unique to her. They are unique, and someone very skilled with a 2H, or with magic, or with DW still wouldn't have the unique abilities of your companions. For instance, your siblings are normal people. There's nothing really terribly special about them--and they don't have their own talent tree. They are with you because they are your siblings.

And Flemeth is an ancient whatever the hell she is, Meredith has secrets of her own, Orsino is a master encahnted (with undoubtly great power/secrets) we will meet more unique and powerful people who happen not to necessarily be on our side. And how does that stop any of them at all from being bisexual though? 

True. That happened to be necessity. DAO was driven by the need to end the Blight. You couldn't be picky. You just picked up people who offered themselves. Hawke doesn't need his companions.

Actually we don't know that Saibh. We need Anders maps for on thing. So it's quite possible for Hawke to need some of his companions. Just like you needed Alistair in DAO. You didn't need him for long but you needed him. 

And yet how does that preclude any of them from being bisexual? The fact that there are far more unique people than them that are straight means they're not overly common. And the fact that they've had such lives makes it more likely they wouldn't be part of the norm of people. Sexuality or otherwise. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 mars 2011 - 05:30 .

[kthim]

Mack Besmirch wrote...

kthim wrote...

My Avatar is a Lizard wrote...

And in DA1 we only met 2 Openly Bi sexual characters out of a cast of 100's it seemed to me most people in Origns were straight.

Most were straight yes, but we didn't just meet 2 that were bisexuals. There's Zevran, Leliana, Dairren, Iona and Isabela.

Not to mention Wade and Herren that are a couple.

and branka and hespith!

Right, I knew I was forgetting someone.  Just couldn't put my finger on who.

[obnoxiousgas]

Haha, I spent way too long in this post and it's only somewhat coherent.

I work on the basis that if I'm willing to suspend my belief that any 3 out of 4 of the Origins LIs will go into a romance with my Warden regardless of their appearance, personality and actions outside of their conversations with the LI in question, it's rather arbitrary to claim that gender is the thing that's going to ruin immersion forever.

I also don't get how it compromises their character. In Origins, two of the LIs were straight and two were bisexual. This was a part of their character. In DA2, all four LIs are bisexual, and this is also a part of their character. It does not, however, dictate their character. Obviously our past experiences affect our development as people, but Thedas (or at the very least, the parts of Thedas we've come into much contact with) has a fairly open approach towards homosexuality. This means that it is difficult to apply how much or little this would shape the characters' development - a large part of the impact of being LGBT is due to society's response to gay relationships and general non-heteronormativity, and when this is removed or minimised from the setting much of this impact is lost. As such, I'm less inclined to believe that being homosexual or bi shapes the character, and frankly I'd much rather sexuality be coincidental to the character than part of their defining characteristics.

In regards to the likelihood of all four LIs being bisexual, I admit this is not realistic. On the other hand, nor is it realistic that Hawke can (assumedly) only form a relationship with four (five if you download DLC ) people in an entire city. Were we not limited by game mechanics and Bioware had an infinite budget and created tons and tons of fleshed out characters that could be romanced, it could certainly be argued that it makes sense to apply real world demographics to them in regards to gender, ethnicity (at least the Thedas equivalent) and sexual orientation. As it is, I'm fine with a bit of hand-waving to justify that all of the four, attractive people Hawke can have a relationship with are bi and people that play gay characters have just as much choice as those that play straight characters. And hey, if it makes you feel better, imagine that literally everyone else in Kirkwall is straight - and lo, these four happen to make up that n% of gay/bi people found in the real world. And they're potential love interests? What a fortuitous happenstance!

[Ninja Mage]

I love it when Fenris and Hawke decide to Fawke...whoops ~covers mouth~ lol

[jlb524]

What's more odd than the bisexual thing is that you can create the ugliest PC ever with facial proportions that would make Jesus weep and all the appropriate LIs will still want to get in your pants.

[KnightOfTwo]

Ninja Mage wrote...

I love it when Fenris and Hawke decide to Fawke...whoops ~covers mouth~ lol

*giggles*

[catabuca]

Fidget6 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And what's to stop 4 of them from being bisexual?  4 people that you meet out of the dozens? 

I have more than four bisexual friends, and I don't go out actively seeking bisexuals. 

Exactly. Heck, I have 2 trans friends, and I live in a backwards-ass small city and again, like you, didn't go out actively seeking trans people. I didn't meet them on any 'scene', just through normal daily interactions. It happens.

Meh, but I don't like this debate anyway. I don't think there's much point in having it, so I'll let everyone get on with it.

[Russalka]

Finding it realistic or odd is subjective.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

What's more odd than the bisexual thing is that you can create the ugliest PC ever with facial proportions that would make Jesus weep and all the appropriate LIs will still want to get in your pants.

Heh case in point 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 mars 2011 - 05:36 .

[LukaCrosszeria]

KnightOfTwo wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

I love it when Fenris and Hawke decide to Fawke...whoops ~covers mouth~ lol

*giggles*

I've created a monster...

[catabuca]

obnoxiousgas wrote...

Haha, I spent way too long in this post and it's only somewhat coherent.

I work on the basis that if I'm willing to suspend my belief that any 3 out of 4 of the Origins LIs will go into a romance with my Warden regardless of their appearance, personality and actions outside of their conversations with the LI in question, it's rather arbitrary to claim that gender is the thing that's going to ruin immersion forever.

I also don't get how it compromises their character. In Origins, two of the LIs were straight and two were bisexual. This was a part of their character. In DA2, all four LIs are bisexual, and this is also a part of their character. It does not, however, dictate their character. Obviously our past experiences affect our development as people, but Thedas (or at the very least, the parts of Thedas we've come into much contact with) has a fairly open approach towards homosexuality. This means that it is difficult to apply how much or little this would shape the characters' development - a large part of the impact of being LGBT is due to society's response to gay relationships and general non-heteronormativity, and when this is removed or minimised from the setting much of this impact is lost. As such, I'm less inclined to believe that being homosexual or bi shapes the character, and frankly I'd much rather sexuality be coincidental to the character than part of their defining characteristics.

In regards to the likelihood of all four LIs being bisexual, I admit this is not realistic. On the other hand, nor is it realistic that Hawke can (assumedly) only form a relationship with four (five if you download DLC ) people in an entire city. Were we not limited by game mechanics and Bioware had an infinite budget and created tons and tons of fleshed out characters that could be romanced, it could certainly be argued that it makes sense to apply real world demographics to them in regards to gender, ethnicity (at least the Thedas equivalent) and sexual orientation. As it is, I'm fine with a bit of hand-waving to justify that all of the four, attractive people Hawke can have a relationship with are bi and people that play gay characters have just as much choice as those that play straight characters. And hey, if it makes you feel better, imagine that literally everyone else in Kirkwall is straight - and lo, these four happen to make up that n% of gay/bi people found in the real world. And they're potential love interests? What a fortuitous happenstance!

This could be the best post I've ever seen on this subject. Thank you for writing it.

[Minxie]

catabuca wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

My concern with the all-bi LIs has always been that it will reduce the quality of romances across the board. If they do it right, which is make the difference more than a pronoun swap and a slightly different cutscene, that's quite a bit of effort for something only a fraction of the audience would see (which has been a driving sentiment in BW's development of DA2). I would much rather have deeper, distinctive romances with fewer choices than having all romances watered down to allow for more choices.

That's not to say that this will happen. Maybe they went all out with relationships in DA2. But it is a concern I have and a valid one to have based on some reviews and dev comments about the cost (in money and time) when it comes to romantic content.

Companion relationships in general seem to be a major focus of this game. That, coupled with the new rivalry/friendship dynamic, suggests that in fact they have spent a lot of time and energy in making sure those relationships are well-realised, whether they are romantic, familial, or platonic.

If BW believed they wouldn't be able to have all bi LIs without sacrificing the content of all romances, then I am sure they wouldn't have done it.

I have the same concerns as SurelyForth, but I'm tentatively hopeful over the reasons Catabuca listed. It's also nice to see that Anders responds with different dialogue to M!Hawke flirting with him than he does with FemHawke. Hopefully there are also different hetero and same sex animations for the way the characters interact romantically. If those f/f Merrill screenshots were real, then it's possible the animations are exactly the same, just switched between the two Hawke genders (). But then again, I can't imagine that Isabela jumps on and wraps her legs around FemHawke the way she does to M!Hawke. 

I still can't help but be worried that the romances will be watered down because 4 bi romances could have spread resources very thinly. And there's the fact that DA2 has far fewer recorded conversation lines than DAO...

But I'm trying to be optimistic, catabuca! 

[Saibh]

Ryzaki wrote...

To me it's only 4 people. Four bisexual people finding you attractive isn't egergioionous by any stretch to me. Especially not out of the dozens of NPCs in DA2.

And maybe they are. But this is also in socieities that marganilize if not outright opress gays/lesbians. So I don't think it would be comparable to a society that merely finds them strange but otherwise doesn't care.

Comparisons can be made. If people aren't open with their sexuality, I doubt that encourages other people to be open with theirs.

Regardless, I feel I can compare it to real life. Not with perfect parallels, but there is a threshold that I feel can be a limit.

And Flemeth is an ancient whatever the hell she is, Meredith has secrets of her own, Orsino is a master encahnted (with undoubtly great power/secrets) we will meet more unique and powerful people who happen not to necessarily be on our side. And how does that stop any of them at all from being bisexual though?

It...doesn't? That was never a point I made? You said that it was incredibly unlikely for you to meet people like that to begin with, and I pointed out that you meet people like that all the time, and you take them with you because of how special and unique they are. So it's not really comparable to the unbelievability of all of your LIs being bisexual.

Actually we don't know that Saibh. We need Anders maps for on thing. So it's quite possible for Hawke to need some of his companions. Just like you needed Alistair in DAO. You didn't need him for long but you needed him.

That's how you go about meeting them, yes, which furthers my point it's not comparable to being as unlikely as them all being bi. But there's no evil for you to defeat.

And yet how does that preclude any of them from being bisexual? The fact that there are far more unique people than them that are straight means they're not overly common. And the fact that they've had such lives makes it more likely they wouldn't be part of the norm of people. Sexuality or otherwise.

It doesn't mean "none of them can be bisexual" it means that "it's extremely unlikely for you to meet five people who are attracted to you and bisexual of your eight person party, one of whom is your sibling and one of whom is a widow".

I don't think "it's so unlikely for you to meet people like Fenris or Anders", because you meet people like that all the time, and you specifically take them with you because they're so unique, or you specifically seek them out. But you didn't select these people because of their sexuality.

I'm not sure where you got the "I don't think unique people should be bi" from.

[Finis Valorum]

Wow, I've been gone for just a short while and this thread just keeps exploding in length.
I guess congratulations are in order, so to Catabuca and others, I was wrong and you were right, all the main Li's are all bi after all.
That said, I myself am both quite happy and slighty disappointed at the same time.
First of all I'm very happy with the DA teams dedication to expanding our options and choices when it comes to in-game romance and sexuality (In light of this I almost cannot believe that ME is produced by same company).
But I'm also disappointed with who those choices actually are for MHawke, I didn't like Anders all that much in Awakenings to begin with, but more than that I never got the impression that he was anything but straight (I mean between a sexy and single MCousland and the irresistible Nate I'd have expected him to show at least some indication that he was interested in guys at all). Also the whole possessed, psychopathic cannibal thingy is a huge turn-off for me.
As for Fenris if he didn't look like a teenager from a Japanese manga comic and wore shoes, he might have been worth a shot, but as it is I just cannot see myself flirting with him without feeling very dirty (and not in a good way).

And lastly it seems the devs have decided to torment me further by making the only attractive man who still seemed like he might be a possibility the biggest ****-tease in the game, or as they call it a "chaste" Li.
I wonder what chaste is supposed to mean in this context anyway, will it be a classical Disney romance, where any action is only vaguely alluded and is then implied to happen off screen only or a "romance" where there is never any action at all implied or otherwise. The first would be slightly dissatisfying in a game that has largely done away with the cut to black romances for all the other Li's, while the latter seems utterly pointless and not like a real romance at all to me.

Ah, well at least femHawke gets to have some fun with Isabela, twice. As for MHawke he'll just have to hope Kirkwall has something like the Pearl or some random flings with cute NPC's or else it's celibacy and the joys of being turned down by our dear Dwarf for him.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

What's more odd than the bisexual thing is that you can create the ugliest PC ever with facial proportions that would make Jesus weep and all the appropriate LIs will still want to get in your pants.

Heh case in point 

I'm sure Alistair was all over her. 

[KnightOfTwo]

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

What's more odd than the bisexual thing is that you can create the ugliest PC ever with facial proportions that would make Jesus weep and all the appropriate LIs will still want to get in your pants.

Heh case in point 

Which is all the more funny due to the "you look radiant" comment. Were I in that situation I would have said "you look radioactive".

[Redgren]

Yeah, as for the bisexual argument goes; Gaider has stated in the past (was linked in this thread earlier when debating same-sex marriages), there isn't any real LGBT community as we understand it. At the same time, I know I certainly tend to have friends with fluid sexualities and genders--it was part of my growing up.

If your Hawke is gay, lesbian, or bi, it's not hard to imagine that zie would find people of a like mind. If you aren't, it's hard to imagine (as has been discussed) that it ever becomes a point of discussion in any major way.

Otherwise, I also tend to be open to the idea that sexuality is fluid for some people (which is why Sky from Jade Empire intrigues me).

I too am somewhat worried that they might not be fully fleshed out--but from the spoilers we've been given surrounding Anders, and from what Gaider has said both here and in the GayGamer thread, I have a little faith that they wouldn't be doing this unless they felt they were doing it justice.

[Ryzaki]

Saibh wrote...
Comparisons can be made. If people aren't open with their sexuality, I doubt that encourages other people to be open with theirs.

Regardless, I feel I can compare it to real life. Not with perfect parallels, but there is a threshold that I feel can be a limit.

Okay. 

It...doesn't? That was never a point I made? You said that it was incredibly unlikely for you to meet people like that to begin with, and I pointed out that you meet people like that all the time, and you take them with you because of how special and unique they are. So it's not really comparable to the unbelievability of all of your LIs being bisexual.

Your LIs being only 4 people out of dozens you meet i what I mean. And you're right we meet people like that all the time and all the time they're heterosexual. Is it so strange that you meet a group that happens to be bisexual? 

That's how you go about meeting them, yes, which furthers my point it's not comparable to being as unlikely as them all being bi. But there's no evil for you to defeat. 

True there is no evil to defeat. But you do run into them incidently. 

It doesn't mean "none of them can be bisexual" it means that "it's extremely unlikely for you to meet five people who are attracted to you and bisexual of your eight person party, one of whom is your sibling and one of whom is a widow".   I don't think "it's so unlikely for you to meet people like Fenris or Anders", because you meet people like that all the time, and you specifically take them with you because they're so unique, or you specifically seek them out. But you didn't select these people because of their sexuality.I'm not sure where you got the "I don't think unique people should be bi" from.

Ah. I see. We're not going to agree on that because for me it was just as unlikely for Leliana and Morrigan to be attracted to the same Warden and be reduced to catfights over them. 

As for the last bit I never said that and not sure where you got that from. I simply said I felt their lifestyles would lead to be them outside the norm in sexuality as well as deeds. Isabela and Fenris flaunt their differences from everyone else, Merrill's never fallen in love before and Anders was raised in the circle which had different views on sex than the rest of Fereldan. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 mars 2011 - 05:49 .

[Ninja Mage]

The maker has willed it!

[Ryzaki]

KnightOfTwo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

What's more odd than the bisexual thing is that you can create the ugliest PC ever with facial proportions that would make Jesus weep and all the appropriate LIs will still want to get in your pants.

Heh case in point 

Which is all the more funny due to the "you look radiant" comment. Were I in that situation I would have said "you look radioactive".

LOL yeah I find that funny. Everyone always acts like your PC is hot even if you made him/her the oldest ugliest person you could've. 

[ipgd]

Maybe Hawke's sex is in a constant quantum flux and the raw power of his/her sex appeal is magnetically attracting every bisexual in Thedas. Hawke disappears in the end because the rest of them all just arrived.

This is what I will believe.

[plumededragop]

Hi everyone! <3

So! What's up since this morning? I've been in the Chatzy chat with a few of you (MB, Ish....) any more news? Are we still good with what was found out earlier? (I know I should read the past pages, but you guys talk so much Not that i mind really. )