8194 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
To play devil's advocate for a moment:
You're right that one elf doesn't make a pattern. Neither does 2. But what about 3? 4? Because if Fenris is bi I can name 4 gay/bisexual elves off the top of my head.: Cluracan from Sandman, Zander from Drawn Together (who is a gay elf from a fantasy game no less...), Zevran, and then Fenris.

Even 4 might not be a pattern but it could become a pattern. Effiminate elf is already a trope. It doesn't matter if Fenris is effeminate or a giant tattooed bucket of testosterone. If Gay Elf becomes a trope of its own the two will inevitably get linked.

No longer Devil's Advocate: But personally I just like scruff. Elves have no scruff. Not wanting an elf because you're not keen on hairless twinks is just as valid as not wanting a dwarf because you don't like short fuzzy guys.

Well...Zander (Xander?) is a parody. Of Link. The writers of that show used the non-existing "gay elf" trope. Like I said, it has more to do with the fact we perceive them as feminine. And we also perceive feminine men as gay. I wouldn't count a parody.

I really don't think this trope exists. Not yet, at least. People will complain no matter what. Anders is too flirty! Fenris is an elf! 

[Blue_Shayde]

Varric is a dwarf! Sebastien is dracula + DLC. xD

[Ryzaki]

I don't see two examples of the members of the same species with different personalities being something of a trope. Even with 3 elves I don't see it becoming a trope. Now if we had 3 elves and they were pretty feminine I'd see that as somewhat approaching trope dom but the elves have nothing in common except the fact that they're elves.

It's not like we know both Fenris and Zevran are bi LIs and the next bi LI is a male elf.


In that case we could say BW already has bisexual humans as a trope.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 07:56 .

[Saibh]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't see two examples of the members of the same species with different personalities being a trope.

It's not like we know both Fenris and Zevran are bi LIs and the next bi LI is a male elf.

In that case we could say BW already has bisexual humans as a trope.

What irritates me about this complaint is that there are two aspects of Fenris' personality that people call out out being stereotypical:

A) He's flamboyant and flirty
 He's an elf

Of those two, both are represented in our likely M/M candidates. Anders is flirty and a skirt-wearing mage. Fenris is an elf. But, of those two "stereotypes", which one is bigger?

Far and away, it's that gay men are all manwhorish and flamboyant. That's a no-brainer. It's an obnoxious stereotype, and it's a persistent one. So, despite Anders a lot more strongly representing the bigger stereotype, people still have an issue with Fenris because he's an elf.

[Ryzaki]

Saibh wrote...

What irritates me about this complaint is that there are two aspects of Fenris' personality that people call out out being stereotypical:

A) He's flamboyant and flirty
 He's an elf

Of those two, both are represented in our likely M/M candidates. Anders is flirty and a skirt-wearing mage. Fenris is an elf. But, of those two "stereotypes", which one is bigger?

Far and away, it's that gay men are all manwhorish and flamboyant. That's a no-brainer. It's an obnoxious stereotype, and it's a persistent one. So, despite Anders a lot more strongly representing the bigger stereotype, people still have an issue with Fenris because he's an elf.

I agree with you. And frankly the flamboyant sterotype irks me far more than just being another species.

It baffles me that people say Anders is less sterotypical than Fenris too. But /shrugs I can only hope that Fenris is the bi option. I can't deal with Anders. I already wanted to kick him in the face in Awakening. <_<


I'd rather the elves are bi become the trope rather than the flirty flamboyant male becomes the bi option trope.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 08:03 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Wow... Okay FitScot was right, you're both pretty much just ignoring everything being said to you.

[Saibh]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Wow... Okay FitScot was right, you're both pretty much just ignoring everything being said to you.

You're saying: It's almost a trope!

I'm saying: No, it's not. It could be, I suppose. But we haven't gotten there.

So, since it's not, what are you really objecting to? The fact that it isn't a trope but by making another bisexual elf it might thus become a trope even though there isn't enough to back it up yet?

[Ryzaki]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Wow... Okay FitScot was right, you're both pretty much just ignoring everything being said to you.

The fact that 2 cases makes something almost a trope?

No. I'm just saying he's overreacting.

It's like the slipperly slope of "accomdating s/s romances means they'll eventually accomadate for beastiality" It's a dude wait what? Situation for me.

And in this case why no complaining about the flirty flamboyant bisexual option potential trope? That's even more supported than the gay elf trope! 

Edit: Saibh said it better than I did.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 08:13 .

[Merci357]

Saibh wrote...

What irritates me about this complaint is that there are two aspects of Fenris' personality that people call out out being stereotypical:

A) He's flamboyant and flirty
 He's an elf

Of those two, both are represented in our likely M/M candidates. Anders is flirty and a skirt-wearing mage. Fenris is an elf. But, of those two "stereotypes", which one is bigger?

Far and away, it's that gay men are all manwhorish and flamboyant. That's a no-brainer. It's an obnoxious stereotype, and it's a persistent one. So, despite Anders a lot more strongly representing the bigger stereotype, people still have an issue with Fenris because he's an elf.

If you get that analytical, I'd guess it's fair to say that the vast majority of characters can easily be broken down into tropes. Everything has been done in a similiar (or familiar) fashion in earlier games/movies/books. However I don't think using the "flirty and flamboyant" stereotype is that bad - it's after all a no win situation, you'll get some flak if you use this easily recogniseable trope, and you get some flak if you don't use it and break with that pattern (which would be just a different trope, after all). Like you said, people still have issues, no way around this.
I'd say if it's done in a tasteful way, that's all I ask for. Even if it's a stereotype I'm somewhat tired to see. Not every man that is rather feminine is gay or even bi, I should know. But if it's a character that is portrayed in a feminime and emotional way, and this character happens to be the bi option, should I complain about that, or happy that the option is there at all? That's neither a given, nor a guarantee it's handled appropriate. And I value those two points far more then the chosen trope.
Oh, and I'm not arguing against your post, just wanted to trow in my 0,02€ - and took your quote as a hook.

Modifié par Merci357, 08 février 2011 - 08:16 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Saibh wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Wow... Okay FitScot was right, you're both pretty much just ignoring everything being said to you.

You're saying: It's almost a trope!

I'm saying: No, it's not. It could be, I suppose. But we haven't gotten there.

So, since it's not, what are you really objecting to? The fact that it isn't a trope but by making another bisexual elf it might thus become a trope even though there isn't enough to back it up yet?

Saibh, I respect you a lot but don't misquote me.
I bolded that line because THAT is exactly what I said. It could become a trope. In theory. If Fenris is bi then it gets one step closer to becoming a trope. I never said it IS a trope, I never even said Fenris would seal the deal. I said it could happen.

The Problem, as I explained but it was ignored, is that Effeminate Elf is already a trope. I gave you the link to prove that.
If Gay Elf becomes a trope then the two will be automatically connected. It won't matter if some of the gay elves aren't effeminate or if most of the effeminate elves are straight. It will be irrelivant. The two tropes would become one cliche.
If someone doesn't want another bi elf because they worry about that happening, they're entitled to that opinion.


More importantly... and I hate to get off topic but you don't get to tell other people what they can and can't be offended by. Or even what they should be more offended by. Nobody has that right.

And Ryzaki, I will ignore the fact that you emphazied a word I never said. Instead i will just point out,
since you seem to have missed it, that I provided 4 examples.  It's not much more but then I never said "almost" so it isn't all that important is it... and I didn't a terrible job of ignoring that emphasis...

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 08 février 2011 - 08:47 .

[Danni Rand]

 Personally, I sort of hope it isn't Anders for m/m simply because I'm afraid I'd have a hard time romancing anyone else. That was a problem I had with Zevran. Playing as a girl, I'd sometimes manage to romance Alistair, but I almost always picked Zevran in the end. I'd also usually just start flirting with Alistair because I'd get him so much earlier in the game. As a guy I always picked Zevran. I just preferred being friends with Morrigan, and Leliana sometimes rubbed me the wrong way (too preachy). In Awakening I was very taken with both Nathaniel and Anders and wished they could have been romance options, so I'm afraid that if Anders is the bi option I'll never explore the other options  Well, I probably would eventually, but it would be difficult.

[Saibh]

But, my point is that it just doesn't make sense to object to something on the grounds of a trope that hasn't happened. Objecting to the mere idea of something that could maybe happen in the future. Supporting Anders on the grounds that he is not an elf, and therefore does not abide by this non-existing trope seems counterintuitive, because he does abide by a trope that actually exists, and is far more prevalent: flirty man****s.



Effeminate Elf is a trope when elves are effeminate. The trope is not "All Elves Are Effeminate". It's just when they are. All elves, in Thedas, are not effeminate. Zevran was. Fenris isn't.



Anyone is entitled to their opinion. And I'm entitled to strongly disagree, because it's grounded in something that has never, and might never, happen.

[Blue_Shayde]

I still want Fenris. *kidnaps and runs off with said elf*

Varric: *grabs her by the collar* Hey, we still need him...
Me: puppy-doo doo. <_<

Modifié par Blue_Shayde, 08 février 2011 - 08:50 .

[Ryzaki]

Edit: 
Forget it.

Needless to say Saibh said it better than I could.


Fenris isn't effemininate. He's an elf but all elves in DA are not effemininate. Zev was, Fen wasn't.

All elves are not bisexual there are plenty of elven male PCs in origins that were heretosexual only.

So I'm sorry but I don't see where this "all elves will be bisexual." fear is coming from.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 08:58 .

[Blue_Shayde]

^ that just confused me. but i think my list of things to read has increased.

[Minxie]

Saibh wrote...
Effeminate Elf is a trope when elves are effeminate. The trope is not "All Elves Are Effeminate". It's just when they are. All elves, in Thedas, are not effeminate. Zevran was. Fenris isn't.
 

Well, I wouldn't say that. In all these combat videos a lot of us have noted how gracefully he moves. Not to mention he's slender, has very pretty hair... I'm just sayin'.

I kinda think that if Fenris does turn out to be m/m option it'll become like an unofficial, exclusive-to-Dragon-Age trope that the elf guy in your party is bi.

[Saibh]

Minxie18 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Effeminate Elf is a trope when elves are effeminate. The trope is not "All Elves Are Effeminate". It's just when they are. All elves, in Thedas, are not effeminate. Zevran was. Fenris isn't.
 

Well, I wouldn't say that. In all these combat videos a lot of us have noted how gracefully he moves. Not to mention he's slender, has very pretty hair... I'm just sayin'.

I kinda think that if Fenris does turn out to be m/m option it'll become like an unofficial, exclusive-to-Dragon-Age trope that the elf guy in your party is bi.

Well, yes. I suppose. But I'd say Anders, with his long hair, earring, and ski--robes is more effeminate. Besides that, I am talking mostly about personality, which, in my opinion, trumps appearance.

Also--Fenris seems to have the same moveset that two-hander Hawke does.

[Ryzaki]

Edit: That said I'd be vastly amused if Varric turned out to be the s/s option.

If only for the reason that they'd be no trope complaints.

Oh wait he's a rogue isn't he. *sighs* So close...so close. But that said Isabela's a rogue already so it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Edit:Wait...does that mean my 2hd Hawke is going to be swinging similar to Fenris? Huh. Oh well I'm playing a mage first anyways.

@Jimmy: I apologize if I offended you that wasn't my intention. I was just confused about the potentially a trope thing. Especially considering Anders is higher on the scale than Fenris would be.

That apology goes for FitScot too. I do think you were overreacting and overreaching but the way I went about it wasn't the best.

Frankly if Anders ends up being the s/s option I'd pretty much look for the blatantly flirty, smooth talking and flamboyant LI and go "Bi option." 

Plus I think we've all forgotten something in our fear of tropes. Tropes Are Not Bad
I rather continuously be surprised honestly.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 09:11 .

[Leoroc]

I know Gaider is just reading this thread and laughing at his computer about how far off all of us are from the truth =p

[Eudaemonium]

Leoroc wrote...

I know Gaider is just reading this thread and laughing at his computer about how far off all of us are from the truth =p

And then holding his breath when we come close, only to sigh with relief when we ignorantly move on to another theory.

[Jimmy Fury]

Saibh wrote...

Supporting Anders on the grounds that he is not an elf, and therefore does not abide by this non-existing trope seems counterintuitive, because he does abide by a trope that actually exists, and is far more prevalent: flirty man****s.

And that's why I agreed that you seem to be ignoring people...
I never mentioned Anders at all. I never said he was a better option on any grounds of tropeness. I never said Fenris was more of a stereotype than Anders. I never ever mentioned him. Yet twice you have accused me of just that...

Anyone is entitled to their opinion. And I'm entitled to strongly disagree, because it's grounded in something that has never, and might never, happen.

Of course you're entitled to disagree.
You are not, however, entitled to tell people what stereotypes they should be more bothered by. Period.

[Blue_Shayde]

Damn you Gaider! Tell me whether I should buy PC or Console! 

Anyway, does all this really matter? If Fenris is a trope, then I want a trope. 

Modifié par Blue_Shayde, 08 février 2011 - 09:18 .

[Ryzaki]

...But how are gay elves a stereotype?

Effeminate elves are somewhat but gay?

:/

Almost every famous work with elves in it I'm drawing a blank on gay elves.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 09:25 .

[Fenn_]

Trope or not a lot of people already called elves gay just because they tend to be somewhat slender and pretty boyish. Who cares if it's a trope or not people will think it anyway. As long as the character is interesting I don't really care.

Modifié par Fenn , 08 février 2011 - 09:25 .

[Saibh]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

And that's why I agreed that you seem to be ignoring people...
I never mentioned Anders at all. I never said he was a better option on any grounds of tropeness. I never said Fenris was more of a stereotype than Anders. I never ever mentioned him. Yet twice you have accused me of just that...

Of course you're entitled to disagree.
You are not, however, entitled to tell people what stereotypes they should be more bothered by. Period.

I am not arguing with you. I did not say "The fact you're supporting...". I'm arguing against that sort of thought process, and explaining why. Because you seem to be under the impression that I'm ignoring people, I felt the need to explain what I was saying and why I was saying it.

I've never accused you of saying that. Just as I have never said "Shut up, your opinion is invalid and you have no right to have it".

Modifié par Saibh, 08 février 2011 - 09:28 .