8194 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Fenn wrote...

Trope or not a lot of people already called elves gay just because they tend to be somewhat slender and pretty boyish. Who cares if it's a trope or not people will think it anyway. As long as the character is interesting I don't really care.

Gah. Those lot of people tend to be pubescent teenage males who think if something's not dripping testorone it's "gay" Apparently Kaidan's gay because he doesn't want to have a threesome, doesn't posture and doesn't have a deep gravely voice and beard. I take their stance about as seriously as I would take a dancing pig.

I understand the latter bit (and agree with it somewhat).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 09:32 .

[harktag]

A bunch of people have expressed that they would rather the M/M option not be Anders since he'd be the same "flirty type" as Zevran. He definitely seems that way towards women, but consider this:



So in Awakening, Anders has admitted to being attracted to women, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the thought of being with another man hasn't crossed his mind either. Perhaps it doesn't actually cross his mind until later on - conveniently during DA2. This is not unusual, for I have many friends who only recently have realized that they too were attracted to men (or at least were curious about it). With him being flirty with LadyHawke, it would be interesting to see a far different experience with Anders if you were a MaleHawke. If MaleHawke started insinuating interest in him, perhaps this would cause Anders to begin to question how he himself feels about the advances. I picture Anders being a bit nervous/unsure about it - far less "confident" in himself about dealing with the situation than he would with a woman - to the point where I think it would be rather cute and adorable. Maybe he becomes a little scared by these feelings he's having, and MaleHawke can be the one to support him through?



Now realistically, I doubt that the game would focus that much time/effort on a "my companion is discovering himself" experience. Still, it's how I picture things would play out if Anders were to actually be bixsexual. I can dream, can I?

[Blue_Shayde]

Ryzaki wrote...

Fenn wrote...

Trope or not a lot of people already called elves gay just because they tend to be somewhat slender and pretty boyish. Who cares if it's a trope or not people will think it anyway. As long as the character is interesting I don't really care.

Gah. Those lot of people tend to be pubescent teenage males who think if something's not dripping testorone it's "gay" Apparently Kaidan's gay because he doesn't want to have a threesome, doesn't posture and doesn't have a deep gravely voice and beard. I take their stance about as seriously as I would take a dancing pig.

I understand the latter bit (and agree with it somewhat).

If only those pubescent teen boys were right...I'd be happy if Kaiden was gay.

[dgcatanisiri]

I do worry about stereotypes (tropes are not bad, which is a trope itself), not to mention I know that many people like to put messages where they don't exist, which is why I have said that I would prefer a human, so that a message of 'because we don't have a human gay option, we're considered less than' couldn't be pulled out of things (not how I feel, of course, but something that would be inferred by those who want dramatics).

But ultimately, it does come down to personality in a character. It's why if I hadn't already known that Zevran was the only option for my gay Warden, I would have spent the whole game, banging my head against the wall that is Alistair, because I preferred Alistair's personality.

[Blue_Shayde]

*sigh* you can say that again. my head still hurts...



honestly, of all the (very small info given on) stories out there, Fenris interests me the most. Second would be Varric. Then Sebastien and Anders.

[Ryzaki]

I admit I'm bias. I didn't like Anders in DAA unless he got a personality transplant I don't think I'm gonna like him in DA2.

[Jimmy Fury]

Saibh wrote...
I am not arguing with you. I did not say "The fact you're supporting...". I'm arguing against that sort of thought process, and explaining why. Because you seem to be under the impression that I'm ignoring people, I felt the need to explain what I was saying and why I was saying it.
I've never accused you of saying that. Just as I have never said "Shut up, your opinion is invalid and you have no right to have it".

Yes... that's my point. You're arguing against a thought process that was never expressed. FitScot never said Anders was less stereotypical either. Yet you keep trying to argue that anyone who doesn't want an elf is wrong because Anders is more offensive.
-edit for clarification- my point being that there might be more to it than that.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 08 février 2011 - 09:54 .

[MorningBird]

Blue_Shayde wrote...
Anyway, does all this really matter? If Fenris is a trope, then I want a trope. 

Pretty much my thoughts on this entire trope topic. xD

Once again, I hope we get all bi LI's in the future.  I think you'd cut out a nice portion of worriers (on both sides of this debate) if there were simply CHOICES like there are for the F/M romances.

I agree with Jimmy in that if you don't want to contribute/support a certain romance (regardless as to your reasoning) you shouldn't have to, but the players who are only interested in a S/S romance only get that ONE choice, there is no alternative.

As we've all got very different tastes and expectations, I feel like some, if not most (definitely not all) of the inevitable 'LI disappointment' could be avoided if people who say... don't want to romance Fenris (for whatever reason) could instead got for Anders or Varric.

For example, the female players of DA:O who didn't like Alistair had the option of Zevran, or no one at all.  Male players who don't like Leliana have the option of Morrigan, or no one at all.

the M/M and F/F romances are a bit of a big deal because we only get ONE choice, or no one at all, and while the romances don't make up the core of the game, I, personally like a little romance in story, and would rather not play the game than play it without.

Granted, people will complain no matter what BW does, but at least it would end some of this in-fighting we've got going on. xD

Either way, I trust BW to write strong S/S romances.

Modifié par MorningBird, 08 février 2011 - 09:53 .

[Blue_Shayde]

only one problem with all bi LI's. we wouldn't have anything to argue about. D8



*stiffles her laughter* I saw a few clips on youtube with Anders. He's such an Alistair clone...except with a cat obsession. The one where he find Mr Pounce-a-lot looks more likes he's talking to the player's crotch. >_>' And now I love Justice. Anders: But what do they want from mages? Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I? Silence!



Now I demand Justice in the game if Anders is going to be. (still don't want anders for bi li, though. xD)

[MorningBird]

Blue_Shayde wrote...

only one problem with all bi LI's. we wouldn't have anything to argue about. D8

No no, you see, then we'd get fighting about it being 'unrealistic' to have 4 bi party members (despite the fact that 2 would be men, 2 would be women, we usually get somewhere between 7 and 8 party members, plus a gazillion NPCs, from all different corners of Thedas and walks of life, etc...)

You can never end the fight, but you can pick your battles. ;D

[Saibh]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Saibh wrote...
I am not arguing with you. I did not say "The fact you're supporting...". I'm arguing against that sort of thought process, and explaining why. Because you seem to be under the impression that I'm ignoring people, I felt the need to explain what I was saying and why I was saying it.
I've never accused you of saying that. Just as I have never said "Shut up, your opinion is invalid and you have no right to have it".

Yes... that's my point. You're arguing against a thought process that was never expressed. FitScot never said Anders was less stereotypical either. Yet you keep trying to argue that anyone who doesn't want an elf is wrong because Anders is more offensive.
-edit for clarification- my point being that there might be more to it than that.

Perhaps not. He did say he preferred Anders, and I made the connection myself, because he's objecting to Fenris on the grounds of him possibly becoming a stereotype. So, my response is, "Well, isn't Anders an even bigger stereotype?"

[Minxie]

Saibh wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Saibh wrote...
I am not arguing with you. I did not say "The fact you're supporting...". I'm arguing against that sort of thought process, and explaining why. Because you seem to be under the impression that I'm ignoring people, I felt the need to explain what I was saying and why I was saying it.
I've never accused you of saying that. Just as I have never said "Shut up, your opinion is invalid and you have no right to have it".

Yes... that's my point. You're arguing against a thought process that was never expressed. FitScot never said Anders was less stereotypical either. Yet you keep trying to argue that anyone who doesn't want an elf is wrong because Anders is more offensive.
-edit for clarification- my point being that there might be more to it than that.

Perhaps not. He did say he preferred Anders, and I made the connection myself, because he's objecting to Fenris on the grounds of him possibly becoming a stereotype. So, my response is, "Well, isn't Anders an even bigger stereotype?"

Maybe a little, yes. Anders is the flirty, flamboyant type, but then again, he still came across as straight in Awakening. If he is the m/m option, it would most likely mean that he goes bi just for Hawke. To me that would be something new. So, I think he'd only be slightly stereotypical.
(Unless of course they've retconned him to say he's always been interested in both men and women and he just never had cause to mention it in Awakening)

[Ryzaki]

It wouldn't be new though *points to sig* Sky is the exact same way flirty towards females (especially when you play a female PC and if male he exhibits this towards Dawn Star) yet willing to be with a male PC.

And if he was interested in males and females all along he just chooses never to hit on the attractive males in the party? (The Warden who is attactive by default no matter how you make him/her and Nate?) Despite being somewhat flirtaous towards a female PC? Odd.
BW has done that before And apparently if BW does something twice it becomes in danger of becoming a trope.

Joking, Joking.

*at the post below* That would encourage me to stab. Fleshy Anders shield!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 10:22 .

[Blue_Shayde]

MorningBird wrote...

Blue_Shayde wrote...

only one problem with all bi LI's. we wouldn't have anything to argue about. D8

No no, you see, then we'd get fighting about it being 'unrealistic' to have 4 bi party members (despite the fact that 2 would be men, 2 would be women, we usually get somewhere between 7 and 8 party members, plus a gazillion NPCs, from all different corners of Thedas and walks of life, etc...)

You can never end the fight, but you can pick your battles. ;D

Its funny when that's brought up. Its a game. A fantasy world. why not? No one makes those complaints with the sims games where everyone can be gay, lesbian, or straight. No one complains with games that have only one guy (the mc) and then nothing but female party members. (well, i do...but beside the point) Realism doesn't stop some fighting games out there from having female fighters wear nothing but thongs and high heels.

We're in a fantasy world where there's elves, dwarves, dragons, creepy crawlies, magic, and mabari hounds that will lick your body clean of blood. Why would it hurt to have all LI's be bi. Doesn't mean all the party members are, just the ones that are LI. If you don't like the idea of your LI possibly swinging for the other team, you don't have to ever play that side of the story and can as easily deny its existance as I can deny Alistair doesn't have some feelings for my mage that would be nurtured after the game ends.

But now I'll probably get yelled at for my comments. *Prepares her enchanted dagger and uses Anders for a shield.*

Modifié par Blue_Shayde, 08 février 2011 - 10:19 .

[UltraBoy360]

I find the stereotype discussions/accustations to be vaguely depressing and I certainly did during the early days of DA:O when Bioware were basically being accused of homophobia because Zevran was perceived as stereotypical/flamboyant.



I personally don't belive that having a Italian/Spanish accent makes one camp, and I didn't find Zevran to be camp in the slightest. I'd never even heard of rouge/gay elf tropes until they came up on these boards and was shocked at the anger directed at the writers back then. I found the vitriol directed at Zevran's perceived flamboyance (from all sexualities) to be pretty homophobic - some LBGT people are camp and flamboyant, some aren't. Those that are may not be to your personal taste, but it is not the writers or Bioware's job to make butch, human warrior LIs to please you or to address a western media imbalance in the portrayal of LBGT people. Besides - if you want a hunky, mans man warrior in DA2 - you have Hawke if you so chose. If the writers feel that Fenris or Anders or Varric is the most appropriate character for m/m LI based on their personality and history - I'm OK with that. Of course I have a preference (Anders!) but I'm not going to rage and make accusations.



As Saibh and Gaider have said, Bioware are absolutely damned whatever they do, as the last 5 pages of this thread have demonstrated.

[Jimmy Fury]

Saibh wrote...
Perhaps not. He did say he preferred Anders, and I made the connection myself, because he's objecting to Fenris on the grounds of him possibly becoming a stereotype. So, my response is, "Well, isn't Anders an even bigger stereotype?"

And my response remains that nobody has the right to tell anyone what they should and shouldn't be offended by.
-edited for deeerp-

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 08 février 2011 - 10:29 .

[Saibh]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Perhaps not. He did say he preferred Anders, and I made the connection myself, because he's objecting to Fenris on the grounds of him possibly becoming a stereotype. So, my response is, "Well, isn't Anders an even bigger stereotype?"

And my response remains that nobody has the right to tell anyone what they should and shouldn't be offended by.
-edited for deeerp-

And I have not. I'm not saying he can't be offended, and that he's wrong to. Or that his opinion is invalid because it isn't mine. I'm saying that I disagree with his reasoning. I am trying to convince him of my side. It might come off as me saying "You have the wrong opinion", but that's not what I'm trying to do.

[Jimmy Fury]

Saibh wrote...
And I have not. I'm not saying he can't be offended, and that he's wrong to. Or that his opinion is invalid because it isn't mine. I'm saying that I disagree with his reasoning. I am trying to convince him of my side. It might come off as me saying "You have the wrong opinion", but that's not what I'm trying to do.

eh. I stopped caring about this debate.

I still don't want Fenris or any other elf for the simple fact that I find hairless twinks uninspiring. Any other reasoning is someone else's battle to wage.
-edited because repulsive is a much stronger statement than I intended-

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 08 février 2011 - 10:53 .

[Blue_Shayde]

UltraBoy360 wrote...

I find the stereotype discussions/accustations to be vaguely depressing and I certainly did during the early days of DA:O when Bioware were basically being accused of homophobia because Zevran was perceived as stereotypical/flamboyant.

As Saibh and Gaider have said, Bioware are absolutely damned whatever they do, as the last 5 pages of this thread have demonstrated.

I'm in agreement with you. xD I honestly never heard that the 'gay elf' was a trope and a stereotype until i got on this forum discussion. I've heard a few teenage boys call something gay, but they tend to do that a lot these days for everything. So I never put much thought in it. I'm still surprised to see so much prejudice against the elf race. (its like I'm playing Dragon Age in real life!! =D) They're doomed no matter what, but I can say that this time around...whoever they choose, I won't be to displeased with. All the choices are fine in appearance and again, if the story is great, my heart can always be swayed. (though personally, i will be having my Fenris art and fanfics. xD)

When i heard Zev for the first time...my first thought was this... "Hey! It's Puss-in-boots! :O"

Modifié par Blue_Shayde, 08 février 2011 - 10:40 .

[Ryzaki]

Blue_Shayde wrote...
When i heard Zev for the first time...my first thought was this... "Hey! It's Puss-in-boots! :O"

Yes! I wasn't the only one who thought this! *does a jig* 

[Minxie]

Ryzaki wrote...

It wouldn't be new though *points to sig* Sky is the exact same way flirty towards females (especially when you play a female PC and if male he exhibits this towards Dawn Star) yet willing to be with a male PC.

And if he was interested in males and females all along he just chooses never to hit on the attractive males in the party? (The Warden who is attactive by default no matter how you make him/her and Nate?) Despite being somewhat flirtaous towards a female PC? Odd.
BW has done that before And apparently if BW does something twice it becomes in danger of becoming a trope.

Joking, Joking.

*at the post below* That would encourage me to stab. Fleshy Anders shield!

Oh I'd forgotten about Sky. (I hate that I can't remember Jade Empire very well - I mean I loved that game and it's just all fuzzy now, and there's no time to replay it sadly.)
Anyhoo, my feeling is that the Sky-ish ,'only-gay-for-the-PC' type wouldn't seem as repetitive as the flamboyant, flirty, 'will-sleep-with-anyone' type. The former is still pretty rare in media compared to the latter I would think...

On another note, I hope you aren't predisposed to hate Anders even before meeting him again in DA 2 even if he wasn't to your tastes in Awakening, Ryzaki! How do you know you won't really like him now that he's apparently changed and Justice-y and all that? His hypothetical romance could be amazing and nothing like you'd expect.
(Right now I wish I could play Stewie's line in this Family Guy scene: "How can you say you didn't like it if you never even gave it a ch-chance?" )

[Ryzaki]

Minxie18 wrote...

Oh I'd forgotten about Sky. (I hate that I can't remember Jade Empire very well - I mean I loved that game and it's just all fuzzy now, and there's no time to replay it sadly.)
Anyhoo, my feeling is that the Sky-ish ,'only-gay-for-the-PC' type wouldn't seem as repetitive as the flamboyant, flirty, 'will-sleep-with-anyone' type. The former is still pretty rare in media compared to the latter I would think...

On another note, I hope you aren't predisposed to hate Anders even before meeting him again in DA 2 even if he wasn't to your tastes in Awakening, Ryzaki! How do you know you won't really like him now that he's apparently changed and Justice-y and all that? His hypothetical romance could be amazing and nothing like you'd expect.
(Right now I wish I could play Stewie's line in this Family Guy scene: "How can you say you didn't like it if you never even gave it a ch-chance?" )

Jade Empire is awesome.

It is but like I said if BW does something twice it's in danger of becoming a sterotype.

I am.He irritated the hell out of me. I liked Justice but if Anders has a personality transplant he won't be Anders to me anymore and almost everything that made him "him" irked me.

lulz. I did give him a chance in Awakening.

[Minxie]

Ooh, ooh, did you see the new information about Anders on his official character page?

"It is the Maker who creates mages. The Chantry was built by men, and it can be brought down by them."



Anders, the light-hearted rebel mage from Dragon Age: Origins, Awakening, has changed. Urged by his friend Justice to fight the Circle of Magi more actively, Anders agreed to become Justice's human host… only to find that his anger at the Circle warped Justice into the demonic spirit of Vengeance. Now Anders must struggle mentally and physically to maintain his control over the demon within... at least long enough to see the Circle of Magi overturned forever.

I wonder if this makes him less likely to be a romance, period. It can't be easy undergoing a daily struggle to control Vengeance-Justice and that might mean he doesn't have the time or inclination for flirting and romance.

[Ryzaki]

NOOOOOOOO

*weeps* Justice is one of the two characters I liked from Awakenings.

WHY?!?

*cries harder*

Damn you Gaider!

*nearly drowns in tears* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 11:00 .

[Blue_Shayde]

Ryzaki wrote...

Blue_Shayde wrote...
When i heard Zev for the first time...my first thought was this... "Hey! It's Puss-in-boots! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]"

Yes! I wasn't the only one who thought this! *does a jig* 

Shrek has ruined us forever. I was waiting for him and Alistair to break out into song. 'She's in to superstition. Black cats and voodoo dolls-'

Ryzaki wrote...
Jade Empire is awesome.
It is but like I said if BW does something twice it's in danger of becoming a sterotype.

I am.He irritated the hell out of me. I liked Justice but if Anders has a personality transplant he won't be Anders to me anymore and almost everything that made him "him" irked me.
lulz. I did give him a chance in Awakening.

The video clips I see tell me...that Anders would annoy me. On one ground. He's to much an Alistair copy-cat. They knew they wouldn't have Alistair there to break with the witty banter, so they made a clone...gave him the opposing class (mage), and to make it so he wasn't to similiar...made him obsessed with ****-er-cats. kitties. <_< The more scenes I watch, the more that annoys me. Even his voice is almost like Alistair's when Alistair would use that whiny tone. And that belongs to Alstair only, darnit! ( >.< )^  

*raises Anders shield once more*

Minxie18 wrote...

Ooh, ooh, did you see the new information about Anders on his official character page?

"It is the Maker who creates mages. The Chantry was built by men, and it can be brought down by them."

Anders,
the light-hearted rebel mage from Dragon Age: Origins, Awakening, has
changed. Urged by his friend Justice to fight the Circle of Magi more
actively, Anders agreed to become Justice's human host… only to find
that his anger at the Circle warped Justice into the demonic spirit of
Vengeance. Now Anders must struggle mentally and physically to maintain
his control over the demon within... at least long enough to see the
Circle of Magi overturned forever.

I wonder if this makes
him less likely to be a romance, period. It can't be easy undergoing a
daily struggle to control Vengeance-Justice and that might mean he
doesn't have the time or inclination for flirting and romance.

Err...talk about a 360. But doesn't that make him more Justice then Anders. OOOoooh...what if you can help Justice to destroy the remnants of Anders soul, thus giving Justice full control!?  Wait...now I'm getting a Jade Empire vibe hear... (anyone else remember a similar sitatuion in JE? xD) Talk about butchery two characters and mixing the pieces...they might as well made a new original character.

Modifié par Blue_Shayde, 08 février 2011 - 11:02 .