8194 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I get what you're saying... but was there a particular example of a happy, positive straight relationship in DAO?

Bryce and Eleanor.  Right up until the part where they were brutally murdered!

[AngelicMachinery]

slimgrin wrote...

I thought the desire demon in the mage's tower embodied what real relationships are all about.

If it wasn't for the whole soul consumption,  It would be pretty much perfect wouldn't it?  Both party's get exactly what they want...  just one is dying a little inside.

[jlb524]

David Gaider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
They don't have to say that, but there are other ways to make it more explicit and the in game stuff was still lost on many people.

I get what you're saying... but was there a particular example of a happy, positive straight relationship in DAO?

Maybe it's just me, but it seemed like our tragedy was more or less equal-opportunity?

I think there were.  I just finished Lothering up and I would say the straight elf couple shown there was positive, even though they had come upon some hard times with the bandits.  They were still shown as being a normal well-adjusted couple, as far as the relationship itself is concerned (outside of environmental influences).

Tragedy was applied to all couples in the game whether gay or straight.  I guess I just wanted to see more gay couples that didn't end in with one going bonkers and ruining the relationship to balance that out, just as there were more positive straight couples to balance out the bad.

[Saibh]

jlb524 wrote...

I think there were.  I just finished Lothering up and I would say the straight elf couple shown there was positive, even though they had come upon some hard times with the bandits.  They were still shown as being a normal well-adjusted couple, as far as the relationship itself is concerned (outside of environmental influences).

Tragedy was applied to all couples in the game whether gay or straight.  I guess I just wanted to see more gay couples that didn't end in with one going bonkers and ruining the relationship to balance that out, just as there were more positive straight couples to balance out the bad.

Wait, utterly unnamed and unimportant characters count?

Anyhow, they're about to be brutally murdered by darkspawn. None of them make it out of Lothering.

Anyhow, there are two gay couples. One ends badly. One is going strong and happy. Desire Demon thing is non-canon, and was mostly there (I believe) to add variety to the darkspawn horde in DSC.

Modifié par Saibh, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:47 .

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Bryce and Eleanor.  Right up until the part where they were brutally murdered!

I suppose my problem is I don't believe in happy endings when it comes to love. Anyone who's played in one of my tabletop campaigns would probably wholeheartedly agree with that.

I'm not sure what that says about me.

I don't know that I would deliberately put in a positive gay relationship just to counter-balance what might be seen as a negative one. I just don't think of things in such a deliberately political way-- that strikes me as pretty banal. I don't think I'm afraid of it, however. Personally I'd point to Julian and Nicolas in the Calling as an example, since that's what I would call the most positive relationship in either of my books... you know, until they died horribly and all.

Maybe that doesn't "count" since it wasn't in the game itself. I'll have to keep it in mind. Like I've said before, that refridgerator is supposed to be reserved for the gals. Can't go breaking the rules, after all.

Modifié par David Gaider, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:39 .

[jlb524]

Saibh wrote...

Wait, utterly unnamed and unimportant characters count?

Yes, it all counts!

[Andferne]

David Gaider wrote...

I suppose my problem is I don't believe in happy endings when it comes to love. Anyone who's played in one of my tabletop campaigns would probably wholeheartedly agree with that.

The fun and excitment is all about the chase anyways, lol

[Sanguinerin]

I loved Herren and Wade, although I will say that my best friend and I have the exact same (outward) relationship. We're both males and we bicker back and forth, maybe even going a little furthur than Herren and Wade with a lot of casual insults tossed back at each other that make most observers go, "What did they just say to each other?"

With all of that, he and I are absolutely not together. My situation is a little more unique than most peoples' friendships, but at first glance I looked at both of them less like a couple just because of my own experience. I can definitely see their relationship better after reading actual confirmation from David Gaider, but I didn't quite pick up on it at first just because of how my friend and I react to each other. I would say there was definitely a spark of "I wonder if they're..." though. It was subtle and well implemented.

For the most part, I love the Dragon Age same-sex romance subplots. Branka and Hespith, I've heard about some wardens from The Calling (I got the book, as well as The Stolen Throne, for Christmas and should have them read soon), Martine and her warden friend from Journeys, etc. were all written well.

I enjoy the romance with Leliana much more with a woman than with a man. The way she felt about Marjolaine, everything just appears more meaningful in her romance plot with a woman. As for straight romances, I loved Alistair and Morrigan's plots.

Honestly, the Zevran romance is the only one I didn't want to pursue. I did get his achievement and I tried romancing him as a female, but his story just isn't my favorite. He's funny, but not what I wanted with my male or female wardens. I don't think that the writers would simply write the same character, so even if Fenris is the male-male romance option I'm much more intrigued by his character. He seems much more the strong and silent type, he's the two-handed warrior and so far there's a feeling that he can hold his own just fine. I would never say that just because he's an elf he would be like Zevran, just the same way that I don't believe Isabela and Leliana would be the same despite both being bisexual human rogues. As I've heard David Gaider say about races (to some degree) and characters, it's the personality that is much more important than the race.

I realize all that is a bit off-track from the main topic but follows some of the recent discussion. As for the topic, I'll post about that too so that I'm somewhat on-track. I, like most people, like the idea of a strong male-male romance. Fenris seems perfect so far going by what we know, but we'll see. I also like the idea of a nerdy or quirky (perhaps in a David Tennant as the Doctor kind of way) mage character. My total man-crush on David Tennant aside... Hm. I think those are it.
I'm always least interested in rogues (except for the ME-equivalent of engineers thanks to Tali!)

I like the idea of a mage being the option much more than than a brave, strong warrior. I suppose if Fenris is the option he can pair up with my male mage Hawke. I already know that I want a warrior female Hawke, so I like that Isabela isn't a warrior. I like my strong female warrior to have a softer-sided companion, such as Leliana. Although she seems more rough around the edges than Leliana. It should prove interesting, because even though she's not a warrior she draws a lot more "power" from that whole independent, sea-faring part of her in my opinion. I know... I get off-topic easily.

I should probably quit there while I don't know what else to add. Anyway, I'm up for playing through and seeing all of the romance subplots because I'm sure BioWare will deliver interesting enough characters to see them all!

EDIT: Julian and Nicolas! (Thanks for that last post, Mr. Gaider!) Those were the names I couldn't remember. They sounded like interesting characters. I can't wait to start reading these books.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:45 .

[jlb524]

David Gaider wrote...

I suppose my problem is I don't believe in happy endings when it comes to love. Anyone who's played in one of my tabletop campaigns would probably wholeheartedly agree with that.

I'm not sure what that says about me.

Well, didn't you write Viconia's BG2 romance? 

David Gaider wrote...

I don't know that I would deliberately put in a positive gay relationship just to counter-balance what might be seen as a negative one. I just don't think of things in such a deliberately political way-- that strikes me as pretty banal. I don't think I'm afraid of it, however. Personally I'd point to Julian and Nicolas in the Calling as an example, since that's what I would call the most positive relationship in either of my books... you know, until they died horribly and all.

I guess my deal is that most gay relationships are never shown in positive ways in media.  And, yes there are tons of bad straight relationships around but also plenty of good ones, but rarely any positive gay ones shown along with them.  So, I get touchy with these issues, personally.   I'm probably out of line in expecting Dragon Age to show them (actually, I am) as you are not responsible for other media.  But gal can hope.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:44 .

[dgcatanisiri]

Okay, if Fenris does turn out to have significant Tenth-Doctor-y traits, I will gladly eat my words about not wanting him as a M/M LI.

[Nightwriter]

David Gaider wrote...

I suppose my problem is I don't believe in happy endings when it comes to love. Anyone who's played in one of my tabletop campaigns would probably wholeheartedly agree with that.

I'm not sure what that says about me.

I don't know that I would deliberately put in a positive gay relationship just to counter-balance what might be seen as a negative one. I just don't think of things in such a deliberately political way-- that strikes me as pretty banal. I don't think I'm afraid of it, however. Personally I'd point to Julian and Nicolas in the Calling as an example, since that's what I would call the most positive relationship in either of my books... you know, until they died horribly and all.

Maybe that doesn't "count" since it wasn't in the game itself. I'll have to keep it in mind. Like I've said before, that refridgerator is supposed to be reserved for the gals. Can't go breaking the rules, after all.

Omg. Are you saying that, like, writing should be a totally creative process which evolves naturally and for its own sake without being affected/tainted by the easily-offended masses and their loaded politics?

How dare you.

[Sanguinerin]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Okay, if Fenris does turn out to have significant Tenth-Doctor-y traits, I will gladly eat my words about not wanting him as a M/M LI.

I just just have to say that I support this whole-heartedly.
Note: I'm only using that emoticon because it's the closest one to a thumbs-up figure.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

Omg. Are you saying that, like, writing should be a totally creative process which evolves naturally and for its own sake without being affected/tainted by the easily-offended masses and their loaded politics?

How dare you.

<_<

It's okay to be offended.  I'm offended by your blase attitude towards offended-ness!

[AngelicMachinery]

jlb524 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I suppose my problem is I don't believe in happy endings when it comes to love. Anyone who's played in one of my tabletop campaigns would probably wholeheartedly agree with that.

I'm not sure what that says about me.

Well, didn't you write Viconia's BG2 romance? 

David Gaider wrote...

I don't know that I would deliberately put in a positive gay relationship just to counter-balance what might be seen as a negative one. I just don't think of things in such a deliberately political way-- that strikes me as pretty banal. I don't think I'm afraid of it, however. Personally I'd point to Julian and Nicolas in the Calling as an example, since that's what I would call the most positive relationship in either of my books... you know, until they died horribly and all.

I guess my deal is that most gay relationships are never shown in positive ways in media.  And, yes there are tons of bad straight relationships around but also plenty of good ones, but rarely any positive gay ones shown along with them.  So, I get touchy with these issues, personally.   I'm probably out of line in expecting Dragon Age to show them (actually, I am) as you are not responsible for other media.  But gal can hope.

Truthfully,  you are probably only noticing more negative gay relationships simply because it is something close your heart.  I have a similiar issue that automatically presses my buttons,  and gets my emotions flaring...  it just requires one to step back sometimes and take deep breath and think.  

In Dragon Age it seems like a good deal of relationships are...  iffy,  and a lot of them just simply end in tragedy.  Almost all of Leilana's stories that involve love end horribly, usually with a suicide involved.  It's just a part of the setting,  and I think it simply makes the succesful relationships shine more.   Like our bickering black smith lovers.

Will they have epic tales told about them when they pass on?  Nope,  but,  will they live relatively happy lives?  I Sure hope so...  because wade was awesome.

[jlb524]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Truthfully,  you are probably only noticing more negative gay relationships simply because it is something close your heart.  I have a similiar issue that automatically presses my buttons,  and gets my emotions flaring...  it just requires one to step back sometimes and take deep breath and think.  

Yes, but my original point was that it should be okay to express the thing that offend you or press your buttons as long as it's done civily and with respect (i.e., no pointless name calling).

Like, if I'm offended by the lack of DW warriors in the game, I should be able to express it (in a civil manner) without people telling me I'm crazy for feeling this.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Omg. Are you saying that, like, writing should be a totally creative process which evolves naturally and for its own sake without being affected/tainted by the easily-offended masses and their loaded politics?

How dare you.

<_<

It's okay to be offended.  I'm offended by your blase attitude towards offended-ness!

Terribly sorry. I thought for sure you had safely excluded yourself from "the easily offended masses" when you said you weren't part of them, you were just standing silent vigil like the great Night Watch of Westeros.

Here, have an apology taco.

[David Gaider]

jlb524 wrote...
Yes, but my original point was that it should be okay to express the thing that offend you or press your buttons as long as it's done civily and with respect (i.e., no pointless name calling).

I agree. I joke about the refridgerator, but it's a trope that needed to be called out in order to make writers think about what they're doing-- because sometimes a lot of what we do we do without actively thinking about it. Just because we dredge it up from our subconscious, however, doesn't mean it's automatically gold. I may not like the idea of politicizing what we write, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider what we're putting out there, especially when it comes to issues of privilege. It can always be better.

[jlb524]

David Gaider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Yes, but my original point was that it should be okay to express the thing that offend you or press your buttons as long as it's done civily and with respect (i.e., no pointless name calling).

I agree. I joke about the refridgerator, but it's a trope that needed to be called out in order to make writers think about what they're doing-- because sometimes a lot of what we do we do without actively thinking about it. Just because we dredge it up from our subconscious, however, doesn't mean it's automatically gold. I may not like the idea of politicizing what we write, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider what we're putting out there, especially when it comes to issues of privilege. It can always be better.

Exactly.  That was my point and I'm glad you agree with it.  I don't expect you to do anything or demand it, but throwing ideas out for consideration is hardly a bad thing.

[hexaligned]

David Gaider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Yes, but my original point was that it should be okay to express the thing that offend you or press your buttons as long as it's done civily and with respect (i.e., no pointless name calling).

I agree. I joke about the refridgerator, but it's a trope that needed to be called out in order to make writers think about what they're doing-- because sometimes a lot of what we do we do without actively thinking about it. Just because we dredge it up from our subconscious, however, doesn't mean it's automatically gold. I may not like the idea of politicizing what we write, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider what we're putting out there, especially when it comes to issues of privilege. It can always be better.

I don't see that technique as being wrong.  Whether modern women appreicate it or not, it's ingrained in men to be protective of them.  There really isn't any better or more effective way to get men emotionaly interested or invested in something than a damsel in distress.  I mean you must take advantage of little physcological hooks like that all the time, if you just do it uncoinciously, then hats off I guess.

[ScorpSt]

David Gaider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Yes, but my original point was that it should be okay to express the thing that offend you or press your buttons as long as it's done civily and with respect (i.e., no pointless name calling).

I agree. I joke about the refridgerator, but it's a trope that needed to be called out in order to make writers think about what they're doing-- because sometimes a lot of what we do we do without actively thinking about it. Just because we dredge it up from our subconscious, however, doesn't mean it's automatically gold. I may not like the idea of politicizing what we write, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider what we're putting out there, especially when it comes to issues of privilege. It can always be better.

I just want to thank you for linking to Wikipedia and not TV Tropes. I'm up late enough as it is.

[David Gaider]

relhart wrote...
I don't see that technique as being wrong.  Whether modern women appreicate it or not, it's ingrained in men to be protective of them.  There really isn't any better or more effective way to get men emotionaly interested or invested in something than a damsel in distress.  I mean you must take advantage of little physcological hooks like that all the time, if you just do it uncoinciously, then hats off I guess.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the problem isn't doing it-- the problem is doing it without considering the possibility that you might be over-doing it or what you might be unintentionally saying by going to that same well over and over. There are, after all, different ways to get men emotionally involved than having terrible things happen to their wimmen-folk.

Again, you wouldn't want to do the opposite either and resort to tokenism, but that doesn't mean you should disregard issues brought up by those who might be sensitive to your portrayals. They may just be reading more into what you created than you intended, sure, but would it kill you to think about it? Privilege would tell us we should create whatever we want to because it's ours, and why bring unrelated issues into it? But there is also responsibility, and that applies to many more issues than simply sexuality or, say, race.

[Nightwriter]

relhart wrote...

I don't see that technique as being wrong.  Whether modern women appreicate it or not, it's ingrained in men to be protective of them.  There really isn't any better or more effective way to get men emotionaly interested or invested in something than a damsel in distress.  I mean you must take advantage of little physcological hooks like that all the time, if you just do it uncoinciously, then hats off I guess.

I don't think it's the concept of a woman being in distress that's so motivating, but of a lover being in distress. I'd expect a female heroine to be just as moved if a male lover was "injured, killed, or depowered". I suspect this wouldn't be an issue if we found a few more boyfriends in refrigerators rather than girlfriends. Unfortunately, most comic superheroes (and heroes in general) are male.

[MerinTB]

David Gaider wrote...
I suppose my problem is I don't believe in happy endings when it comes to love. Anyone who's played in one of my tabletop campaigns would probably wholeheartedly agree with that.

I'm not sure what that says about me.

...

Yeah, that's something to think on.  Don't want people to start calling you Chris Avellone, right?

[Celtic Latino]

I would definitely like to see a non-companion romance that is M/M. A cool idea would be a male ruler or prince of an island or tiny nation, sort of akin to Anora in that he's headstrong and loves to take charge but has a somewhat softer touch. He would be an exclusive M/M option and react better to male characters than female.



Personally I'm hoping Fenris will be an M/M option simply because I like him (from what I've seen so far...) too. I would just like to see an M/M option that isn't amoral/loose moral flexibility (like Sky and Zevran), somewhat more like Alistair/Carth/Kaiden in that he fights clearly for the side of good and has strong convictions towards fighting for that side of good (only please...no Carthitude). Or at least perhaps two different romantic paths, say he's an amoral character, perhaps a rivalry romance in which you try to guide him down a better path, ultimately he becomes more gentle and loving and the romantic scene is more passionate, or go down a friendship romance in which he is more aggressive (or vice versa if he is a good aligned character).



Looks wise, as long as he's cute I don't mind. In Dragon Age I'd prefer a Rivani (since they are akin to Moorish Spain in terms of features and looks, I prefer darker featured guys), maybe perhaps even feature a foreign, non-Thedas nation similar to Africa or the Americas with nice dark straight or curly hair and dark skin. Even like a male version of Cassandra Pentaghast would be hot (except the blonde hair would be spiky), aggressive dark paladin/templar look needed. ; )

[Ryzaki]

Hm...a human male templar would be intriguing. Especially for a Mage Hawke.