8194 réponses à ce sujet

[dgcatanisiri]

Marjolaine had a major effect on Leliana, to the point where we actually meet her. As an Orleisian bard, Leliana admits to having used her feminine wiles on occasion. But she doesn't brag about her 'conquests.' Zevran brings up several past partners, and how many of them does he name? The only one I can think that he does is that girl from the Crows, Rinna. If he only brought her up, I wouldn't have a problem - her death clearly affected him, so it's a part of his character for her to be important to him. It's the various other women he brings up that dig under my skin.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Well, you're right to a degree, I suppose, but a bi man and a bi woman are treated and viewed completely differently. Very often, the woman becomes a slag, and the man is just gay. Or maybe that's just London? I don't know, this place is a little gritty and hard to get sometimes.

[London]

I'd agree there. I think people are generally more willing to actually believe that a woman can be bisexual moreso than a man. Usually if its a bisexual male, people assumed that he was totally gay and just trying to fit in more or something.



The only bisexual guy I knew who dated a woman for a long time (5 years) was witha woman who was also bisexual and understood where he was coming from.

[Blue_Shayde]

but in most cases, don't we the player bug him to tell us about his adventures? I mean...we innitiate many of those conversations. And as a crow assassin, his life consists of seduction and murder. Not like he'll sit and tell us about his boring trip to the spot where he'd ambush us. (*hides behind Anders shield*)

That's like asking me how my day =was and not expecting 'video games' to be mentioned somewhere down the
line in the conversation.

Plus, being raised in a ****house, discussing your sexual adventures wouldn't be uncommon. His required
open-mindedness in the Crows, as well, would all lead to a character who's never encountered a situation in which talking about his experiences is considered a no-no. So Zevran has probably never known a time where talking about that sort of thing isn't normal...and maybe even be a bit taboo. After all, Zevran is unwilling at first and hit-harder by the concept of true love.

Modifié par Blue_Shayde, 19 février 2011 - 03:30 .

[Eveangaline]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Marjolaine had a major effect on Leliana, to the point where we actually meet her. As an Orleisian bard, Leliana admits to having used her feminine wiles on occasion. But she doesn't brag about her 'conquests.' Zevran brings up several past partners, and how many of them does he name? The only one I can think that he does is that girl from the Crows, Rinna. If he only brought her up, I wouldn't have a problem - her death clearly affected him, so it's a part of his character for her to be important to him. It's the various other women he brings up that dig under my skin.

I wish he'd talked about talysean. That dude who attacked us in the city. I'm pretty sure a writer confirmed they were once lovers, and betraying him for the warden clearly had a big effect on Zevran....but they never really talked about it then.

[dgcatanisiri]

Blue_Shayde wrote...

but in most cases, don't we the player bug him to tell us about his adventures? I mean...we innitiate many of those conversations. And as a crow assassin, his life consists of seduction and murder. Not like he'll sit and tell us about his boring trip to the spot where he'd ambush us. (*hides behind Anders shield*)

I only do so because it's the only way to get his character opening up. If the character doesn't talk, I don't see the character development. Which again, I see as a flaw in Zevran's character, that he is at first only a lecherous assassin. Again, this doesn't encourage me the person to dig deeper, and I only do because I know that he's the only gay option in the game, and the celebate hero doesn't really work for me - I like the idea of the hero giving his love a passionate kiss as a promise to make it out alive as he goes to storm the castle. It's my inner romantic at work.

As for the misconceptions people have towards bisexuality, yeah, that happens all over the place. With Zevran, though, his repeated tales of wooing women come across as the 'Have I Mentioned I'm Heterosexual Today?' trope in effect, as if he's somehow trying not to come across as being attracted to men... while at the same time he also makes a few attempts at flirtation. Mixed signals, much?

[Blue_Shayde]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

As for the misconceptions people have towards bisexuality, yeah, that happens all over the place. With Zevran, though, his repeated tales of wooing women come across as the 'Have I Mentioned I'm Heterosexual Today?' trope in effect, as if he's somehow trying not to come across as being attracted to men... while at the same time he also makes a few attempts at flirtation. Mixed signals, much?

^ Funny thing is, I always suspect those trope characters the most. The good ol "if they have to rub the fact they're not gay in your face, they're probably definitely in the closet" sense of logic. xD *gets attacked but hides behind the Anders shield, letting him take the arrows*

Modifié par Blue_Shayde, 19 février 2011 - 03:49 .

[SnowHeart1]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Yes, well, I don't see a lot of guys complaining about that, and that really annoys me, actually. Why are so many more people fine with lesbians than gay men?! >_<

'Cause I hated Leliana?  I hate lesbians?  But some of my best friends are lesbians!  Actually, I think I just hated Leliana and never cared about anything she had to say.  (Actually, it's a good question, but I'm not sure it actually has to do with relative comfort of lesbians versus gay men. I just think it's an M/M thread so the focus is on and comparisons are being made to Zevran. But... I could be wrong, and frequently am.) 

[KawaiiKatie]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

As for the misconceptions people have towards bisexuality, yeah, that happens all over the place. With Zevran, though, his repeated tales of wooing women come across as the 'Have I Mentioned I'm Heterosexual Today?' trope in effect, as if he's somehow trying not to come across as being attracted to men... while at the same time he also makes a few attempts at flirtation. Mixed signals, much?

Really? Zevran always smacked me as a Have I Mentioned I'm Gay? kind of guy, in that we hear over and over about his female conquests, only to have it briefly followed up with "But I also like men. Let's not forget that. I can't talk about my male conquests, but I've had them. Trust me."

Though, to be fair, maybe Zevran should have his own trope called "HAVE I MENTIONED THAT I LIKE SEX?"

ANYway, with this in mind, I'd like to repeat my hopes that we'll see a bisexual man in DA2 who prefers men. It would be.... so awesome. I would have major respect for Bioware if that happened.

[Trophonius]

Eveangaline wrote...

I wish he'd talked about talysean. That dude who attacked us in the city. I'm pretty sure a writer confirmed they were once lovers, and betraying him for the warden clearly had a big effect on Zevran....but they never really talked about it then.

That's the one thing that irked me about having my male Wardens pursue a romantic path with Zevran. The implied sexual relationship between Taliesen and Zevran was, at best, negligible in comparison to his constant mentioning of previous female conquests. He seems like he's ALWAYS bringing up random women into the conversation and you even have the option to ask, "Did you have sex with her?" It feels unsatisfying because it's more like he's heterosexual who is only incidentally homosexual when bisexual people are supposed to express interest in both equally (at least).

KawaiiKatie wrote...

ANYway, with this in mind, I'd like to repeat my hopes that we'll see a bisexual man in DA2 who prefers men. It would be.... so awesome. I would have major respect for Bioware if that happened.

Same here. Though with Anders' blatant interest in women and Fenris leering at a cleavaged woman, I'm not so sure.

Modifié par Trophonius, 19 février 2011 - 04:45 .

[highcastle]

Trophonius wrote...

 It feels unsatisfying because it's more like he's heterosexual who is only incidentally homosexual when bisexual people are supposed to express interest in both equally (at least).

Bisexuality isn't universal. Not everyone prefers each sex equally. In fact, in my personal experience, you generally have a preference, at least superficiailly. This is by no way speaking for all bisexuals everywhere. /disclaimer

That being said, I agree Zevran's constant throwing it in the PC's face was a bit like overkill. But what bugged me the most was that you don't even find out about his relationship with Talisin unless you aren't romancing him. One of the most important people in his old life, and that detail is completely glossed over when he's in love. I don't really get it. He can talk about meaningless sex, but not someone he had feelings for?

Ah, well. I liked Zevran for what he was. I found him an interesting character with a strong romance arc. But I'm definitely looking forward to something different. I keep peeking over at the official romance thread, and there seems to be a fair amount of belief that all companions will be bi. If this is true...I'll actually be a pretty happy camper. I've been pretty adament in my preference for Anders, but it would be nice to actually have options this time around.

[MorningBird]

highcastle wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

 It feels unsatisfying because it's more like he's heterosexual who is only incidentally homosexual when bisexual people are supposed to express interest in both equally (at least).

He can talk about meaningless sex, but not someone he had feelings for?

To be honest, I think that was kind of the point.  Relationships he didn't care about?  That were a part of the job?  He'll talk about them freely because they meant little to nothing to him.  He doesn't care that the Warden knows.  Relationships like his one with Rinna or Taliesin?  More of a struggle to get out because Zevran is actually a very guarded person, and these were two people he considered to be 'friends, and more'.  Emotions are a weakness, in his line of work, after all.

As for him not mentioning that line of dialog to a romanced Warden, I chalk it up to him not wanting to discuss a dead past lover to a new one right after the kill.  I think it would have come out eventually, if the game didn't end after slaying the Archdemon.

...  Wait, why all this talk about Zevran, anyway? xD  THIS THREAD NEEDS DA: 2 RELEVENCE!

Erm... I've gotten over Anders possibly eating people while possessed.  He is cool in my books again, yo.

[darkrose]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
[quote]darkrose wrote...
[/quote]
And then there's Leliana, who only mentioned one previous lover: Marjolaine.
[/quote]
Which made sense seeing the mess Marjolaine put her through. 
[/quote]
Sure, but she doesn't go on about how she really prefers men. The one former lover she talks about is female. I got the distinct impression that she was > 3 on the Kinsey Scale. 

The bi woman can lean more towards other women, but the bi man has to make sure it's clear that he's really mostly het, because he can't be too gay.

And you know, I'm glad that we got at least that much, especially given how much fuss there was about Zev. But it would be nice for my male characters not to feel like they're a second choice--or a last resort.

Modifié par darkrose, 19 février 2011 - 05:55 .

[Nefarious Asparagus]

highcastle wrote...

I keep peeking over at the official romance thread, and there seems to be a fair amount of belief that all companions will be bi. If this is true...I'll actually be a pretty happy camper. I've been pretty adament in my preference for Anders, but it would be nice to actually have options this time around.

I highly doubt it. Gaider has already said that while such options would be nice, they aren't cost-effective. Ironically, though I'd prefer the only bi LI option to not be another elf, if all LIs are bi this time around I'll probably go for Fenris anyway, as I found Anders pretty obnoxious. Unless Sebastian is included, in which case all bets are off.

Modifié par Nefarious Asparagus, 19 février 2011 - 07:22 .

[MorningBird]

Nefarious Asparagus wrote...

I highly doubt it. Gaider has already said that while such options would be nice, they aren't cost-effective. Ironically, though I'd prefer the only bi LI option to not be another elf, if all LIs are bi this time around I'll probably go for Fenris anyway, as I found Anders pretty obnoxious. Unless Sebastian is included, in which case all bets are off.

Did he say that about having all bi romances?  I only recall that being mentioned about having gay-exclusive LI's.

Serious question, btw. xD  Seems like you can't go a day without missing something that was said.

[Elysium-Fic]

highcastle wrote...

I keep peeking over at the official romance thread, and there seems to be a fair amount of belief that all companions will be bi. If this is true...I'll actually be a pretty happy camper. I've been pretty adament in my preference for Anders, but it would be nice to actually have options this time around.

This is why everyone is assuming the LIs are all bi:

http://social.biowar...6067/61#6073394

Modifié par Elysium-Fic, 19 février 2011 - 07:28 .

[Nefarious Asparagus]

MorningBird wrote...

Nefarious Asparagus wrote...

I highly doubt it. Gaider has already said that while such options would be nice, they aren't cost-effective. Ironically, though I'd prefer the only bi LI option to not be another elf, if all LIs are bi this time around I'll probably go for Fenris anyway, as I found Anders pretty obnoxious. Unless Sebastian is included, in which case all bets are off.

Did he say that about having all bi romances?  I only recall that being mentioned about having gay-exclusive LI's.

Serious question, btw. xD  Seems like you can't go a day without missing something that was said.

I don't remember exactly where I saw it (though I could probably find it if I tried) but I believe he said that all-bi LIs would also not be cost-effective because you'd have to create different gender-specific dialogues for all the characters, which would mean more voice work and more romance-specific data, and as their budget is of course finite other things just tend to get priority. I suppose he could have been smokescreening, but I would not get my hopes up.

Modifié par Nefarious Asparagus, 19 février 2011 - 07:34 .

[Maugrim]

MorningBird wrote...

Nefarious Asparagus wrote...

I highly doubt it. Gaider has already said that while such options would be nice, they aren't cost-effective. Ironically, though I'd prefer the only bi LI option to not be another elf, if all LIs are bi this time around I'll probably go for Fenris anyway, as I found Anders pretty obnoxious. Unless Sebastian is included, in which case all bets are off.

Did he say that about having all bi romances?  I only recall that being mentioned about having gay-exclusive LI's.

Serious question, btw. xD  Seems like you can't go a day without missing something that was said.

I think this is the post you are speaking of.  Possibly relevant portion quoted.  If not it's still pretty relevant.  The bit about having a gay only romance can be reasonably extrapolted to suggest that including more bisexual romance would cost more zots, though they would get a better return on those zots.

David Gaider wrote...

The only issue with exclusively gay romances ia that an individual romance is a lot of content-- content that is a tad too expensive to justify making it exclusive to a minority of players. So we get some of the romances to do double duty in order to reduce the expense.

It's not a political statement, simply economic reality

David's post in that thread are worth a good read and it heartening to see someone genuienly interested and engaged on the issue.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 19 février 2011 - 07:46 .

[Maugrim]

Wrong thread

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 19 février 2011 - 08:17 .

[Wynne]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I'm Jimmy here. What sort of person tells someone they're interested in that they prefer the opposite gender? "Hey, you're hot, but if I saw a chick, damn, she'd be hotter". Especially with someone as salacious as Zevran.

I don't hate him for it, but it was unnecessary. It's like one of those things writers feel they have to add without realizing we really don't mind if he never tells us. Like...Carth Syndrome. Really. Don't mind if my LI has never had a wife before. I don't mind if he's dated, either, but never gotten married.

I don't hate Zevran. I quite like him as a companion I just don't like romancing him.

But then maybe the RL experience ruins it for me. I broke up with a real guy over the same thing so I'm really not going to bother with a fictional one.

Yeah, I get that. Some people may be bi, but lean more one direction or the other. If they're still feeling like they want the one gender more, then holding onto them when you're the other sex is not likely to happen. If you were the one for them, they'd probably not be saying "I like this other thing that you're not a little more" because even if it's true, the fact that they're thinking in that mode (settling for you) probably doesn't mean anything good for the relationship's future success. So that being a turnoff only makes sense. Sure, it was a character detail, but an unfortunate one for anybody playing a male character. He was the only M/M option, after all, so when even he says "I prefer women a little bit"... well, yeah. That's not so nice to hear.

I don't think his writer meant anything bad by it, not for a moment, but if you step back and look at Zevran critically as an option, it's hard to see him as positively as you'd want to. Especially considering at any moment during the night you might get a knife between the ribs if gets cold feet and decides he wants to finish the job and go back to the Crows. Sure, he doesn't kill you, but you don't know he won't, not for sure. He was okay for the first game, but I have other hopes for the bi option(s) in DA2. Sure, Anders and Fenris have their dangers, but they never semi-willingly murdered for a living as far as we know and probably weren't "encouraged" to have a certain sexuality. I guess what I'm saying is that I just hope the DA2 M/M options like men simply because they like men, without any trauma or murders attached to their sexual preference.

Modifié par Wynne, 19 février 2011 - 01:30 .

[Finis Valorum]

Saibh wrote...

have other hopes for the bi option(s) in DA2. Sure, Anders and Fenris have their dangers, but they never semi-willingly murdered for a living as far as we know and probably weren't "encouraged" to have a certain sexuality. I guess what I'm saying is that I just hope the DA2 M/M options like men simply because they like men, without any trauma or murders attached to their sexual preference.

Since Anders has willingly let the spirit/demon in and has in effect made his vendetta against the Circle/Chantry his life's purpose I'd say we could glean from his short story that not only has he at least semi-willingly murdered people in cold blood to fulfill his goals but he's also gone much, much further than that.

As for past sexual trauma, I agree, with Anders that does sound pretty unlikely but who knows what the Tevinters did to Fenris.
In any case If I really must play therapist (which for any love interest is a serious turn off for me) I'd rather attempt someone with some sort sexual trauma than a possessed lunatic who very likely has a penchant for cannibalism.

[Threeparts]

Finis Valorum wrote...

In any case If I really must play therapist (which for any love interest is a serious turn off for me) I'd rather attempt someone with some sort sexual trauma than a possessed lunatic who very likely has a penchant for cannibalism.

Ahem.


'And you had a famous ancestor, I believe, who was a cannibal?'
Here it comes, thought Young Anders. 'Yes, Sparklefingers Anders,' he said, as levelly as possible. 'I've always thought that was a bit unfair, though. It was only one body. It wasn't as if it was a hobby.'


Apologies to Ser Pratchett.

[Greenishio]

I'm kinda surprised to hear so many people like the idea of every LI is bi. I remember reading through a previous thread about the idea and getting mostly negative reaction from (what I think are) gay/gay-friendly folks. Maybe I just remember it wrong?

[Russalka]

Is it not implied Zevran and Taliesen were involved as well?

[RabidWHM]

All I wish to say Is that I do support M/M or F/F romances. I have no problem with them in V.G or Real life. I would like to see a third romance option for both genders that could possibly be BI for those who wish to go down that route. I'm a female and my male Elf (Vergil) was madly in love with a accent spewing rouge companion named Zevhran. Honestly, to me after trying all romantic possibilities with both genders of grey wardens I have to say Vergil/Zevhran was my favorite. Then came Alistair (but we all knows what happens there...UGH) Maybe my Hakwe will find someone special but I do not know because I'm a little disappointed with the romance possibilities for the male Hawke. As for female Hawke, I'm very excited!

Modifié par RabidWHM, 19 février 2011 - 02:48 .