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Why Saving the Capital City on Watson is the Right Move for Paragons AND Renegades.


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#26
Xilizhra

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Fixers0 wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Paragons and Rengades may save the City, But logical people will save the space port.

How so? a spaceport can be rebuilt, lives can't.


And what about all that valuable military equipment what about all the  spaceships that are docked, what about all those Alliance Marines and Engineers stationed there Do they deserve to die?. these men and women are the ones who keep the world save.

No one deserves to die, but soldiers at least signed up for maybe doing so, and fewer people would be killed by blowing up the spaceport regardless.
Quite frankly, a colony in that location probably should be evacuated.

#27
Fixers0

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Xilizhra wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Paragons and Rengades may save the City, But logical people will save the space port.

How so? a spaceport can be rebuilt, lives can't.


And what about all that valuable military equipment what about all the  spaceships that are docked, what about all those Alliance Marines and Engineers stationed there Do they deserve to die?. these men and women are the ones who keep the world save.

No one deserves to die, but soldiers at least signed up for maybe doing so, and fewer people would be killed by blowing up the spaceport regardless.
Quite frankly, a colony in that location probably should be evacuated.


Still the equipment and the material loss would be dramatic for the military in their effort to keep the system safe.

Modifié par Fixers0, 06 janvier 2011 - 08:49 .


#28
General User

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If the Alliance military was truly dedicated to keeping the system safe they would absorb the loss and commit the resources to rebuild.



It was, after all, the Alliance military’s failure that made this necessary in the first place.

#29
LorDC

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I think OP is overthinking a really simple thing. In-game narrative clearly states that our choice is between enhancing economical/political strength of humanity versus saving lives of colonists. The choice is yours. But anything beyond that is pure speculation.

Discussing what is more important is normal(well, it's stupid too because answer depends on your personal ethics) but arguing that one choice or another is win/win is stupid. Most probably you are just trying to vindicate your own opinion. What's the point of choice is there is perfect solution? I don't think that Bioware put this situation in game just for the sake of being able to kill few thousands of innocent people.

#30
Praetor Knight

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From what I remember, the Batarians targeted that location for political motives to eventually kick humans back to Earth.

So my logic is that saving the Spaceport allows for the economy and existing infrastructure to recover faster than saving the residential area, where the displaced people would have to travel offworld as the colony is rebuilt if at all.

Either way I blame the Batarians and would not mind returning the favor (my main Shep has been a Colonial War Hero, so Shep has too much first hand experience on the matter).

#31
StarGateGod

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i always save the spaceport

#32
General User

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Praetor Shepard wrote...

From what I remember, the Batarians targeted that location for political motives to eventually kick humans back to Earth.
So my logic is that saving the Spaceport allows for the economy and existing infrastructure to recover faster than saving the residential area, where the displaced people would have to travel offworld as the colony is rebuilt if at all.
Either way I blame the Batarians and would not mind returning the favor (my main Shep has been a Colonial War Hero, so Shep has too much first hand experience on the matter).



How do you figure? 

I mean “the economy” is a construct and amalgam of the interactions between people. If the industrial heart of the colony is ripped out, the economy is severely depressed, if the people are killed, the economy ceases to exist.

Are we really at the point where life is so cheap it is easier to replace people than machines?  Maybe.  What a depressing thought...

And, oh, yeah.  The batarians have some serious payback headed their way.  I say we do to the Hegemony what Andrew Jacson did to the Spanish in Florida!

#33
Praetor Knight

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General User wrote...

How do you figure?

It would be a difference of a matter of years to decades for the planet to recover.

What I considered is that the planet has more people than simply the Residential District that was targeted. So with a number of cities on Watson, why destroy only one target with two missles? I figured it was the only site on the planet with a Spaceport.

So Saving the Spaceport would be to the benefit of rest of the planet, at the great expense of those people trapped in the Residential District.

Nonetheless, I could be wrong in my assessment.

#34
General User

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You are right, we have good reason to believe that there are multiple settlements on Watson, as the entry for the planet makes reference to multiple “cities”.
 
But, as others have pointed out, having only one spaceport on a whole planet doesn’t make a heck of a lot of sense either, especially in a universe where all a ship needs to take off and land is an open field.
 
I would argue that it is not the spaceport itself that must be valuable, but the facilities around it; warehouses and shipment facilities, various corporate HQs and research labs, manufacturing facilities and the like.
 
These are things which Cerberus can easily provide, making a Watson with a destroyed spaceport/industrial area ideal as a location for Cerberus cooption. While a Watson with a destroyed residential centre could recover on its own.
 Maybe the decisions should be reversed (hence the bugPosted Image!) maybe saving the city is the Renegade choice, and saving the spaceport the Paragon!

#35
Aimi

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General User wrote...

And, oh, yeah.  The batarians have some serious payback headed their way.  I say we do to the Hegemony what Andrew Jacson did to the Spanish in Florida!

I was encouraged to think that the next DLC will be teaming up with your Alliance buddy against the batarians by the recent CDN feature on human-turian military joint exercises, which had been initiated due to the recent issues with Khar'shan.  Wishful thinking?  Almost certainly!

#36
Dean_the_Young

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StarcloudSWG wrote...

Right, exactly. It's pretty much a "false dilemna" presented to give you the chance to earn more paragon or renegade points.

If you can evacuate the colony, you can at least put down temporary landing zones. If you can clear temporary landing zones, you can build permanent ones. If you can build permanent ones, then you can rebuild the industrial area.

Plus, it's an entire planet.  Destroying one small surface area does not, somehow, miraculously, wipe out the habitability of the *entire* planet...

It's not a false dilemma if you're simply ignorring what they say.

The problem was never that things couldn't be rebuilt. The problem was that they wouldn't be built because it wasn't worth doing so in terms of cost versus benefit. Things that are technically possible, versus things that economically feasible, are more often than not two different things. If they aren't going to make money off of something, patrons don't invest. A government could, but then a government would need enough reason to do so, whereas the Alliance is already stretched thin enough as it is by the time of ME2.



Spaceports are analogous to harbors, and there's a world of difference between a major harbor and a beach. You can land a ship at either, but the infrastructure makes all the difference. Space ports, and airports, are far more complex than simply landing strips.




The planet being uninhabitable was never the problem.

#37
Dean_the_Young

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daqs wrote...

General User wrote...

And, oh, yeah.  The batarians have some serious payback headed their way.  I say we do to the Hegemony what Andrew Jacson did to the Spanish in Florida!

I was encouraged to think that the next DLC will be teaming up with your Alliance buddy against the batarians by the recent CDN feature on human-turian military joint exercises, which had been initiated due to the recent issues with Khar'shan.  Wishful thinking?  Almost certainly!

Hang British people?

#38
Aimi

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I'd be up for that too ;)

Modifié par daqs, 07 janvier 2011 - 12:32 .


#39
Dean_the_Young

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General User wrote...

If the Alliance military was truly dedicated to keeping the system safe they would absorb the loss and commit the resources to rebuild.

It was, after all, the Alliance military’s failure that made this necessary in the first place.

'Throwing good money after bad' comes to mind, with the choice on Shepard's part determining whether the disaster is bad money or not.

When over-expansion leaves you open to a blow, and you receive it, there are two primary courses of actions in response. The first is to push back harder than ever. This is great when you have extra resources that you don't need elsewhere... like trying to find and stop colony abductions in the Terminus, or rebuilding your military power, or security your grip on galactic leadership.

The other course is to stop being over-expanded and withdraw to more realistic, defensible boundaries.

#40
Dean_the_Young

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General User wrote...

What they said. 
 
The port can be replaced w/ infinitely greater ease than the city (and its people) can. All you need is someone to pony up the credits.

Historically uncertain in mass-colonization movements. In colonial societies in which production is limited, in multiple respects re-population is easier than re-industrialization. More people can be shipped in far quicker and easier and cheaper than the means of production and economy.

You take away the economic base of a town and make it too expensive to replace, and the town dies on the vine. You take away its people, though, and more can be found. classic plight of back-region America.

#41
TexasToast712

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What mission is the OP talking about? I R Cunfuzzled. Posted Image

#42
Aimi

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TexasToast712 wrote...

What mission is the OP talking about? I R Cunfuzzled. Posted Image

N7: Javelin Missiles Launched, the last mission in the Blue Suns tree that starts with the Prothean dig site on Joab in the Rosetta Nebula.  A bunch of batarian terrorists capture a missile base near a human colony and use the missiles to blow up part of the colony.  Shep and the Dirty Dozen ride in to beat the clock and save either the colony spaceport or the capital city.

#43
TexasToast712

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daqs wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

What mission is the OP talking about? I R Cunfuzzled. Posted Image

N7: Javelin Missiles Launched, the last mission in the Blue Suns tree that starts with the Prothean dig site on Joab in the Rosetta Nebula.  A bunch of batarian terrorists capture a missile base near a human colony and use the missiles to blow up part of the colony.  Shep and the Dirty Dozen ride in to beat the clock and save either the colony spaceport or the capital city.

Sweet now Iam just gonna go start up my playthrough again..........*runs off to play Mass Effect 2 on Xbox*. Posted Image

#44
Dean_the_Young

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daqs wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

What mission is the OP talking about? I R Cunfuzzled. Posted Image

N7: Javelin Missiles Launched, the last mission in the Blue Suns tree that starts with the Prothean dig site on Joab in the Rosetta Nebula.  A bunch of batarian terrorists capture a missile base near a human colony and use the missiles to blow up part of the colony.  Shep and the Dirty Dozen ride in to beat the clock and save either the colony spaceport or the capital city.

To be a bit more explicit:

Two missiles were launched, but only one can be deactivated. One of them, of course, is the residential area, while the other is the Industrial Area (including the spaceport).

If the economic heart of the colony is killed, the colony is abandoned as unprofitable, and so is much of the region in space. If the population center is left to die, the Alliance retains its interests and can repopulate, but with a lot of dead people.

Poison the well, or poison the villagers. Same delimma.

#45
General User

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Throwing good money after bad' comes to mind, with the choice on Shepard's part determining whether the disaster is bad money or not.

When over-expansion leaves you open to a blow, and you receive it, there are two primary courses of actions in response. The first is to push back harder than ever. This is great when you have extra resources that you don't need elsewhere... like trying to find and stop colony abductions in the Terminus, or rebuilding your military power, or security your grip on galactic leadership.

The other course is to stop being over-expanded and withdraw to more realistic, defensible boundaries.


Why are the turians and Alliance training to hang Brits?  That worries me.Posted Image
 
 
Expenses be damned! The honor of the Alliance is at stake! (hyperbole, but only slight)
 
But yes, you and Xilizhra are probably right. The Alliance probably is over extending itself by making a commitment to Watson. And it probably is, in a rather narrow sense, in the Alliance best interests to withdraw.
 
But look at it from this angle: The Alliance did make the commitment to Watson, and it was their failure that lead to the current crisis. As such they must defend/rebuild Watson.  
 
If they force the colonists to evacuate or simply abandon them (not sure which would be worse), then EVERY human colony, even those in the Alliance proper, will start to doubt whether or not the Alliance will honor their commitment to THEM.  Or when Alliance Marines will force THEM from their homes because someone decided they were "no longer economically viable."

 But there is another solution. The Alliance could hand off patronage of the colony to another interested party, one with both the ability and interest in defending and developing the Skepsis. I contend that Cerberus, and its front companies, fit the bill nicely.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Historically uncertain in mass-colonization movements. In colonial societies in which production is limited, in multiple respects re-population is easier than re-industrialization. More people can be shipped in far quicker and easier and cheaper than the means of production and economy.

You take away the economic base of a town and make it too expensive to replace, and the town dies on the vine. You take away its people, though, and more can be found. classic plight of back-region America.



A sad truth, but a truth nonetheless. All the more need/reason for Cerberus to step up and start walking their talk. 

Modifié par General User, 07 janvier 2011 - 01:07 .


#46
Vaenier

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Why exactly do you need to abandon the colony? They cant grow food there? They cant purify water there? They cant produce enough energy there? What exactly is the reason they cant stay and naturally rebuild?

#47
Dean_the_Young

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[quote]General User wrote...
Why are the turians and Alliance training to hang Brits?  That worries me.Posted Image[/quote]When Andrew Jackson marched into Florida, the most remarkable thing he did wasn't to fight the Spanish (he didn't do much of that), but rather that he hung a small number of British citizens as spies, sparking a much graver diplomatic incident at the time.


 
 [quote]
Expenses be damned! The honor of the Alliance is at stake! (hyperbole, but only slight)
 
But yes, you and Xilizhra are probably right. The Alliance probably is over extending itself by making a commitment to Watson. And it probably is, in a rather narrow sense, in the Alliance best interests to withdraw.[/quote]A large aspect of Alliance colonization is that it isn't, as it turns out, centrally controlled. It's primarily commercially motivated: the Alliance offers aid, security, and incentives towards colonization efforts, but how much goes where is largely left to economics. In many respects, that puts more focus on the proven money sources: the effeciency of economics. In others, the Alliance is left dealing with where other people go, not where it would prefer them to be.

[quote]
But look at it from this angle: The Alliance did make the commitment to Watson, and it was their failure that lead to the current crisis. As such they must defend/rebuild Watson.  [/quote]Do remember we are talking about the Alliance who's primary colonial defense policy is 'we are the cavalry', not 'we will prevent the bad things from hurting you.' The Alliance has a much more... fatalistic approach to colony defense, in part because of the military limitations of ME warfare.
 [quote]
If they force the colonists to evacuate or simply abandon them (not sure which would be worse), then EVERY human colony, even those in the Alliance proper, will start to doubt whether or not the Alliance will honor their commitment to THEM.  Or when Alliance Marines will force THEM from their homes because someone decided they were "no longer economically viable."[/quote]The Marines don't have to force them from their homes. The lack of functional economy will do it for them. This isn't some 'the town seems the same, but we're forcing you to move because we're stingy,' this is 'you have no job, no real supplies, and no prospects on this place anymore.'


A crisis of confidence house of cards depends on an overall assumption that the colonies have overall faith in the Alliance. This really isn't applicable in this setting, because colonization, especially in the Traverse/Terminus, is recognized as unavoidably dangerous. Entire human colonies are disappearing now, others were overrun by the Geth just two years ago, and the entire Alliance defense policy is basically an admission of 'we can't stop the barbarians from reaching you, the best you can count from us is for us to arrive after they've already shown up.'


[quote]
 But there is another solution. The Alliance could hand off patronage of the colony to another interested party, one with both the ability and interest in defending and developing the Skepsis. I contend that Cerberus, and its front companies, fit the bill nicely.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Historically uncertain in mass-colonization movements. In colonial societies in which production is limited, in multiple respects re-population is easier than re-industrialization. More people can be shipped in far quicker and easier and cheaper than the means of production and economy.

You take away the economic base of a town and make it too expensive to replace, and the town dies on the vine. You take away its people, though, and more can be found. classic plight of back-region America.[/quote]

[quote]
A sad truth, but a truth nonetheless. All the more need/reason for Cerberus to step up and start walking their talk. [/quote]They did. They made you, who could in part save the colony, and do much more besides.

Of course, doing that largely bankrupted them for a time, and then they put even more resources still into facing larger threats, like the Geth and Collectors. ME2 saw a rich man turn modest, and Ascension soon after could see that man turn meager. It isn't an organization of infinite wealth.

#48
Dean_the_Young

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Vaenier wrote...

Why exactly do you need to abandon the colony? They cant grow food there? They cant purify water there? They cant produce enough energy there? What exactly is the reason they cant stay and naturally rebuild?

They have no means of production and infrastructure anymore. It just got blown up.

#49
Inquisitor Recon

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Didn't the information on the planet say that each base had six fighter squadrons? That is probably well over 100 fighters. That plus any other assets are why I always save the industrial/starport district.

#50
General User

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

When Andrew Jackson marched into Florida, the most remarkable thing he did wasn't to fight the Spanish (he didn't do much of that), but rather that he hung a small number of British citizens as spies, sparking a much graver diplomatic incident at the time.



Oh, good.  But that's all in the past.  So I can put my musket away?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A large aspect of Alliance colonization is that it isn't, as it turns out, centrally controlled. It's primarily commercially motivated: the Alliance offers aid, security, and incentives towards colonization efforts, but how much goes where is largely left to economics. In many respects, that puts more focus on the proven money sources: the effeciency of economics. In others, the Alliance is left dealing with where other people go, not where it would prefer them to be.



Exactly!  As you say, providing security is a key obligation of the Alliance, if they fail (as they did in Skepsis) and don’t make good, that will be noted.  By their own citizens and by others.

Freakonomics taught me that everything is controlled by economics at some level.  And that economics is the study of incentives and how people respond to them.  Many organizations, the Alliance and Cerberus chief among them, have compelling incentives in Skepsis.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Do remember we are talking about the Alliance who's primary colonial defense policy is 'we are the cavalry', not 'we will prevent the bad things from hurting you.' The Alliance has a much more... fatalistic approach to colony defense, in part because of the military limitations of ME warfare.


Do you think Alliance citizens get that message?  I mean, “your military does not exist to protect you from foreign threats” seems like a hard sell.  

Right up there with: “if we do screw up and you get hit, we’re just gonna leave you holding the bag.”  Or even “if we do screw up and you get hit, the ride home is on us."

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Marines don't have to force them from their homes. The lack of functional economy will do it for them. This isn't some 'the town seems the same, but we're forcing you to move because we're stingy,' this is 'you have no job, no real supplies, and no prospects on this place anymore.'


A crisis of confidence house of cards depends on an overall assumption that the colonies have overall faith in the Alliance. This really isn't applicable in this setting, because colonization, especially in the Traverse/Terminus, is recognized as unavoidably dangerous. Entire human colonies are disappearing now, others were overrun by the Geth just two years ago, and the entire Alliance defense policy is basically an admission of 'we can't stop the barbarians from reaching you, the best you can count from us is for us to arrive after they've already shown up.'


Yeah, the Marines wouldn't have to force the Watsons from their homes.  Of course the lack of a functional economy will do that!  On other colonies the story will be different, fears of such, however irrational (as is often the way of fear of the governement), will take root. 


Watson is a bit different from typical colonies.  The Alliance bases responsible for the colony's defense were literally in orbit around Watson.  You can’t tell me that the Alliances blatant unwillingness and or inability to defend a colony in that scenario won’t cause colonists (and the batarians ftm) to question the Alliances’ motives and/or ability.
 
The truth is, if the Alliance isn’t going to defend the colonies or isn't capable of doing so, then what good is it?


Now, I’m not saying that, if the Alliance pulls out of Watson, other colonies will instantly rise in revolt. What I’m saying is that, if the Alliance pulls out of Watson, when it DOES come time for various colonies to declare their independence from the Alliance, “abandoned us to the predations of our enemies” will be item 1, and the separation will be far less amicable than it could be.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They did. They made you, who could in part save the colony, and do much more besides.

Of course, doing that largely bankrupted them for a time, and then they put even more resources still into facing larger threats, like the Geth and Collectors. ME2 saw a rich man turn modest, and Ascension soon after could see that man turn meager. It isn't an organization of infinite wealth.



Oh, puh-leez! Cerberus found plenty of cash for zombie armies and mind-control rays! 
 
According to EDI, even Lazarus represented (at the very most) two years of Cerberus’ gross.


And what about Cerberus’ contributors? They aren’t just sitting on piles of money back on Earth and writing a check to TIM once a year. They are wealthy people, with diverse interests active in the Alliance business community. At TIMs urging, they could easily be convinced to accept a temporary loss and sponsor a reconstruction effort on Watson.

Given that we’re talking about developing an entire star system here, I find it hard to believe at even substantial investment will result in anything but a long term pay out.  Especially given Cerberus' "interests" in the region.

Modifié par General User, 07 janvier 2011 - 12:27 .