132 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

@kelsjet

How on earth are dual layer enemies going to be your base for how many defenses enemies have when they clearly spawn at a FAR lower rate than your single defense enemy types? That makes no sense whatsoever.

You argument about ammo makes no sense whatsoever either. What you are failing to account for is that via both passive and AR the soldier puts out far more damage per shot than an adept is going to. Hence the ammo discrepancy between adepts and soldiers.

How you failed to account for that is beyond me.

Your description of what I'm actually arguing is also wrong. The main thrust is that weapons, and nearly everything else in the game, do more damage to defenses than they do to health. When you combine that with the fact that enemies tend to have close to a 1:1 health/defense ratio (which leans towards health which HELPS my argument) it proves that enemies suddenly dropping like flies to gun fire once you strip them of defenses is exactly what I satated it was. A MYTH.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 janvier 2011 - 04:53 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

kelsjet wrote...

Funnily enough, what your video shows is that Health to Defenses is in fact, not a 1:1 ratio.


Defenses, at least in my interpretation of what it is on Insanity, is shields and armor (especially w.r.t. adepts, who, essentially, need a "defenseless" target).

If it took 3-4 hits to take out shields and it takes 3-4 hits to take out health, the only way health:defenses will be 1:1 is if armor takes 0-1 hit, which, I think most will agree, is not the case.

Yet again, it seems like the OP is arguing from a point of 'semantics'. I.e. by defining the assertion in a non-standard way (as far as I know, "defenses" have always been defined as shields + armor).

This is probably what is leading to most people considering "taking down Health" being a "much faster" process compared to "stripping and enemy of defenses". Since, at best, killing a defenseless target will take half the time.


That being said, that still does not, in any way, bring you any closer to establishing the OP's initial premise, that being, that it is harder to take out a defenseless enemy with guns than it is with biotics, hence, making biotics non-pointless. This is probably the most significant portion of my post, but one, I'm sure, will be drowned out by the countless "ZOMG LOOK A MOOVIE" posts.

From what I have read of a few of the responses here, people find it just as easily, if not more-so, to just kill an enemy with guns when they are defenseless, compared to a biotic attack.

The last point the OP brings up, imho, is a misnomer. Ammo has never been an issue for me during my countless playthroughs of the game, and there is a pretty straightforward reason for it.

The game doesn't change the amount of ammo that drops depending on class, i.e. a soldier's playthrough wont have more ammo drop.
Due to this, if a class can get through the game using just guns (soldier), then all classes can (especially in ng+ situations, where the weapon disparity is nullified). In short, there is enough ammo in the game to allow you to get through the whole game using just guns. The reason this is so, is since there exists a class that does just that.

Defenses just means it has one type of the 3 different protections. Be that shields, barrier, or armor. That does not mean an enemy with 2 protection layers. Secondly of course taking out the health on the dual layer opponent will be faster than taking out its defenses. That statement just seems like a non point. However the simple fact of the matter is that it is faster to take out an enemy rag dolled by biotics, whether that be with guns or with the throw, or warp powers. An enemy that is rag dolled will die in one hit of throw or warp. If you choose warp then the resulting explosion can pulverize nearby enemy defense setting up for even more biotics. There is also the simple solution of shooting a rag dolled enemy since they take more weapon damage in that state.

The point of this thread is two fold. One is to show that single layer defense targets have more health than they do defense layer. That has been proven pretty handily. The other off shoot of that point is to prove that Adepts are not useless. It is pretty easy to tell they are not. This is the only real part of my post that is my direct opinion. I believe that Adepts are merely different because you don't always need to go for your guns. They are more often than not a tool to help you strip defenses to set up for biotic combos and kills.

I have no idea if this will satisfy anyone but I did my best.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 05 janvier 2011 - 05:11 .

[Whereto]

In the case of biotic's, it seems that peoples perception of their usefulness changes as they move up difficulties. I would say that close to 90% of the regular forum posters would play Mass Effect 2 above Normal difficulty, as average units start to take on extra protection at this time; there is the problem of stripping an enemy before killing them bioticly.



As an example, if you play on insanity(I'm sure many have at least tried) you will know that coming out of cover for to long really depletes your shields. So if your a solider you deplete their shield and maybe another enemies shield if their close, then pop up again to finish them off(with incinerator ammo is easy). The problem with a adept is they have to strip the enemies shields, pop down if they took damage and then they have to come out into the open for a couple seconds to launch an attack that may not kill the enemy.



Health being easier to take down really stems from the idea we are have way there and may as well kill them with guns, not duck into cover and recharge our shields to kill them with biotic's. With that being said I my self on harder difficulties never equip shield stripping ammo as i find the shields drop off quick and that ammo doesn't do much health damage

[kstarler]

kelsjet wrote...

Funnily enough, what your video shows is that Health to Defenses is in fact, not a 1:1 ratio.


Defenses, at least in my interpretation of what it is on Insanity, is shields and armor (especially w.r.t. adepts, who, essentially, need a "defenseless" target).

If it took 3-4 hits to take out shields and it takes 3-4 hits to take out health, the only way health:defenses will be 1:1 is if armor takes 0-1 hit, which, I think most will agree, is not the case.

Yet again, it seems like the OP is arguing from a point of 'semantics'. I.e. by defining the assertion in a non-standard way (as far as I know, "defenses" have always been defined as shields + armor).

This is probably what is leading to most people considering "taking down Health" being a "much faster" process compared to "stripping and enemy of defenses". Since, at best, killing a defenseless target will take half the time.


That being said, that still does not, in any way, bring you any closer to establishing the OP's initial premise, that being, that it is harder to take out a defenseless enemy with guns than it is with biotics, hence, making biotics non-pointless. This is probably the most significant portion of my post, but one, I'm sure, will be drowned out by the countless "ZOMG LOOK A MOOVIE" posts.

From what I have read of a few of the responses here, people find it just as easily, if not more-so, to just kill an enemy with guns when they are defenseless, compared to a biotic attack.

The last point the OP brings up, imho, is a misnomer. Ammo has never been an issue for me during my countless playthroughs of the game, and there is a pretty straightforward reason for it.

The game doesn't change the amount of ammo that drops depending on class, i.e. a soldier's playthrough wont have more ammo drop.
Due to this, if a class can get through the game using just guns (soldier), then all classes can (especially in ng+ situations, where the weapon disparity is nullified). In short, there is enough ammo in the game to allow you to get through the whole game using just guns. The reason this is so, is since there exists a class that does just that.

The assertions about defenses and ammunition in this post lead me to disbelieve that you have played the game at any difficulty level above Veteran. On Insanity, only elite and boss enemies have more than a single layer of defenses, so the test and assertion that defense to health is 1:1 in the vast majority of cases is only made incorrect by the fact that his test proves the ratio is more likely 1.25:1 health:defense, or a greater ratio of health to defenses than originally surmised. The amount of enemies with a single defense layer are easily 3 to 1, and the only reason I wouldn't say they are 4 to 1 or greater is because of a certain recurring enemy that could be considered a spoiler if spoken of in greater detail.

Sinosleep already addressed the assertions about the initial premise and about ammunition, so there's no reason to address them again.

One other thing; I am no drooling moron that sees a video and immediately begins to slobber all over myself because of the shinies flashing before my eyes, and neither are the others here that you are directly attacking because you refuse to accept the facts that Sinosleep and others have put forth. It only makes you look foolish and factless to engage in that kind of discourse, regardless of how prevalent it may or may not be on these forums.

Modifié par kstarler, 05 janvier 2011 - 05:22 .

[sinosleep]

I'm uploading a full run of Tali's loyalty mission with my shotgun wielding warp exploding adept so that we can all count together to see how many 2 layer defense mobs spawn.

[Ahglock]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I think the issue is twofold.

One people don't micro manage squadies enough so a lot of wrong weapons for the job are happening, and they end up seeing health deplete just as fast from their fire.

Two extra damage to dudes who have been CCd. You throw the pull and the guy dies almost instantly. People see the instant death part and connect it to the health part, when it is really the CCd part.

I don't even think it's common knowledge that ragdolled enemies receive 100% weapon damage.

I've tested this on merc troopers with a Widow soldier on NG+ with no upgrades and no powers, and my observations match sinosleep's test: one shot in the chest vs pure shields (Widow as no shield dmg bonus) and one shot in the chest on pure health, both bars drop exactly the same amount. 1:1 ratio.

I did not know it for a while.  Heck I complained about something related, it was more about health getting chewed to pieces before I could pull off the biotic combos though.  End fo the day I guess dead is dead, but I wanted throws and explosions not my squadies killing everything I pulled.  Still you leanr more and then you look at things differently.  This is one area I think they fell down, and I beleive they acknowledged it to some degree.  There really isn't enough in game info letting you know how stuff works.  In game under pull etc, it should say, targets effected by your biotics take extra damage from incoming fire.  You should not have to come to the forums to find this crap out. 

[HBC Dresden]

This whole issues exposes the fact ME2's combat is more strategic and thought-involved and dare I say, more RPG-ish as a result. I recently dived back into ME1 and the combat is horribly simple and shooter-like. The powers in ME2, although fewer and require less "bars" to level up, is actually more strategic and has specific uses. Engineers excel at stripping defenses, Adepts excel at making enemies vulnerable when down to health, and Soldiers excel at finishing the job. It's just a matter of how you combine them all, hence why squaddies have less number of powers.

[sinosleep]

Ahglock wrote..

I did not know it for a while.  Heck I complained about something related, it was more about health getting chewed to pieces before I could pull off the biotic combos though.  End fo the day I guess dead is dead, but I wanted throws and explosions not my squadies killing everything I pulled.  Still you leanr more and then you look at things differently.  This is one area I think they fell down, and I beleive they acknowledged it to some degree.  There really isn't enough in game info letting you know how stuff works.  In game under pull etc, it should say, targets effected by your biotics take extra damage from incoming fire.  You should not have to come to the forums to find this crap out. 

Even that aspect of it isn't as pronounced as some people would have you believe. I recognize that it happens, and that it's irritating, but take a look at this sentinal warp bomb vid of mine. I managed to warp bomb practically everything on the level without my squad killing them before I got the chance to do it.

Granted, I knew I would be going warp bomb happy and so I was always quick to cast it, but I think it still proves my point that in my experience the squad stealing kills from me on pulled enemies doesn't happen all that often.

[edit here] Just went over the vid, they manage to kill off one target I was trying to go for, and only manage that becuase the warp I originally threw at it hit the high cover that was next to the low cover I was using.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:05 .

[Ahglock]

@ Dresden

I'm not sure I'd say that. Adding rock, paper, scissors doesn't really up the strategy in my opinion. It is like saying making toast in a toaster oven is more complex than in a toaster. Sure maybe on a technical level it is, but not in any appreciable way.

What they mainly did was make the shooter elements work, even integrating them into the power use more.

Modifié par Ahglock, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:06 .

[Ahglock]

sinosleep wrote...

Ahglock wrote..

I did not know it for a while.  Heck I complained about something related, it was more about health getting chewed to pieces before I could pull off the biotic combos though.  End fo the day I guess dead is dead, but I wanted throws and explosions not my squadies killing everything I pulled.  Still you leanr more and then you look at things differently.  This is one area I think they fell down, and I beleive they acknowledged it to some degree.  There really isn't enough in game info letting you know how stuff works.  In game under pull etc, it should say, targets effected by your biotics take extra damage from incoming fire.  You should not have to come to the forums to find this crap out. 

Even that aspect of it isn't as pronounced as some people would have you believe. I recognize that it happens, and that it's irritating, but take a look at this sentinal warp bomb vid of mine. I managed to warp bomb practically everything on the level without my squad killing them before I got the chance to do it.

Granted, I knew I would be going warp bomb happy and so I was always quick to cast it, but I think it still proves my point that in my experience the squad stealing kills from me on pulled enemies doesn't happen all that often.

Yeah it felt pronounced when I complained about it a year ago.  I also sucked hard at this game a year ago.  I had to hide behind cover a lot more then than I do now.  Now adays it happens but not nealry as often.

Edit to add.  I also think a lot of people were having the same combo issue I was.  They wanted shepard to do it all.  Pull, warp all on your own.  When you use squadies to cover 1/2 the equation you get more combos by a long shot.  So the complaint wasn't I can't get a combo when  I pull, but when I pull before my cooldown is up from theat pull+flight time of warp I can't get a combo when shepard did it all.  Given it is a squad based game, not a really valid complaint.  But back then I was not nealry as good as I am now at using the squad effectively.  So it never felt like I could rely on them for this. 

Modifié par Ahglock, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:10 .

[kstarler]

Ahglock wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

Ahglock wrote..

I did not know it for a while.  Heck I complained about something related, it was more about health getting chewed to pieces before I could pull off the biotic combos though.  End fo the day I guess dead is dead, but I wanted throws and explosions not my squadies killing everything I pulled.  Still you leanr more and then you look at things differently.  This is one area I think they fell down, and I beleive they acknowledged it to some degree.  There really isn't enough in game info letting you know how stuff works.  In game under pull etc, it should say, targets effected by your biotics take extra damage from incoming fire.  You should not have to come to the forums to find this crap out. 

Even that aspect of it isn't as pronounced as some people would have you believe. I recognize that it happens, and that it's irritating, but take a look at this sentinal warp bomb vid of mine. I managed to warp bomb practically everything on the level without my squad killing them before I got the chance to do it.

Granted, I knew I would be going warp bomb happy and so I was always quick to cast it, but I think it still proves my point that in my experience the squad stealing kills from me on pulled enemies doesn't happen all that often.

Yeah it felt pronounced when I complained about it a year ago.  I also sucked hard at this game a year ago.  I had to hide behind cover a lot more then than I do now.  Now adays it happens but not nealry as often.

Edit to add.  I also think a lot of people were having the same combo issue I was.  They wanted shepard to do it all.  Pull, warp all on your own.  When you use squadies to cover 1/2 the equation you get more combos by a long shot.  So the complaint wasn't I can't get a combo when  I pull, but when I pull before my cooldown is up from theat pull+flight time of warp I can't get a combo when shepard did it all.  Given it is a squad based game, not a really valid complaint.  But back then I was not nealry as good as I am now at using the squad effectively.  So it never felt like I could rely on them for this. 

Sorry to take the thread a bit more off topic, but I think the complaint is a lot more valid on Normal difficulty than at higher difficulties (based on the fact that BioWare has stated they balance the game around Normal). I started my first Adept on Normal because I'd read all over how difficult they were to play, and by the end of the game I'd bumped up the difficulty to Insanity because the combo targets were dying too fast, even with a squad mate doing the pulling or warping. I should also point out that I, too, had the idea in the beginning that I should be the one doing both parts of the combo. Luckily, a youtube video (I believe by Average Gatsby) straightened me out.

To bring it around to the thread topic, I actually found that even on Hardcore and Insanity on my first Adept, my squad mates did enough damage to shields from weapon fire to let me singularity a target, drop it's shield with a shot or two, and follow up with a warp bomb the second they were floating, which would usually strip all the defenses on the other enemies nearby as a result. So my own personal experience validates this topic once more for me.

Modifié par kstarler, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:24 .

[kelsjet]

sinosleep wrote...
When you combine that with the fact that enemies tend to have close to a 1:1 health/defense ratio (which leans towards health which HELPS my argument) it proves that enemies suddenly dropping like flies to gun fire once you strip them of defenses is exactly what I satated it was. A MYTH.

Here you go. I bolded it for you this time since you still can't seem to grasp what people are going on about.

This following is the critical point you are missing, ready for it?

A 1:1 ratio (or any other for that matter) has nothing to do with the argument you are making. Your basic premise states that it is easier to kill a defenseless enemy with a biotic attack than it is to kill a defenseless enemy with guns, hence making biotics non-pointless. Whatever the ratio of health to defense is at this point is irrelevant (which is what I actually have been stating for a few posts now), since we are looking at guns vs. biotics on a defenseless target.

This tirade that you have gone on can at best be described as a very poorly thinned straw man, and at worst, as the sh!t fit thrown by a child who is not getting his way and is unable to articulate exactly why he is in sh!t fit mode.



My entire issue with your argument in the OP is that not only are the facts questionable and the definitions arbitrary, but that the entire core logic you are applying is a non-sequitor. e.g. hp/def ratios have nothing to do with a guns vs. biotics on defenseless enemies. The number of enemies with dual layer of defenses is meaningless to whether it is easier to kill an enemy with guns or to finish him off with biotics.

What it seems you are consistently failing to realize, is that no matter how many videos you make, the core logic of your statements will still be flawed.

You could make an entire full length feature film about every void zone in your psyche, but that still won't change the fact that, by design, most biotics only work on defenseless enemies, and that the ratio of defense to health has nothing to do with whether it is easier to kill a defenseless enemy with guns or biotics.


It is almost as if you are getting confused by your own statements and then, when you have realized that you are confused, your pick some random statement from the air, make a video on it (which has nothing to do with the topic that you brought up in the first place) and then proceed to stipulate that somehow the existence of the video means that your original, totally unrelated premise, is somehow true. Sorry, but that is just not how this works.


Its like me going out and making a video about hello kitty island adventure, then coming in here and saying the sky is bright pink. The two are unrelated.

I really do not know of a simpler way to put it.

*shrugs*


At the end of the day, the overwhelming consensus in this very thread is that people find that when a target is defenseless, his HP goes down super fast to the point where numerous people, not only me, have stated that they disagree with your statement that HP goes down slowly and that guns are less useful than biotic attacks.

In fact, people who I have never met before (see first page of thread) are actually echoing exactly the same sentiments I have, that being, that at best, biotics function as a form of "flashy kill" but not something that is more efficient than guns.

Now, whatever the reasons for this are is not relevant to the discussion (maybe it can be analyzed in another thread "Why does it *feel* that HP goes down so fast on defenseless targets?"). The point still stands, that expecting to have numerous individuals, some of whom can no doubt articulate much better than you can, to ignore the countless hours of experience they have had (which is causing them to arrive at the same conclusion as me) just because you made a few unrelated videos, is not only futile, but borderline insulting.

Take it how you will.

[sinosleep]

For one Kelsjet, your math is off


agreed with me

DominusVita
randompersonontheweb (made a point about ammo, otherwise was with me)
kstarler
Atmosfear3
Ahglock
Tony Gunslinger
Sparda Stonerule

agreed with you

cachx

didn't actually agree with anyone

adam_grif (made a point about ammo, and asked for statistics which I PROVIDED)
Whereto
HBC Dresden

by quite a wide margin at that.

Not only that, but you've been off base on practicaly everything you've mentioned.

You didn't realize an adept would go through ammo quicker than a soldier even though they do substantially less damage per shot due to adrenaline rush and the soldier's passive and as such would use more ammo to get the same number of kills.

You some how tried to base health:defense ratios around mobs that rarely appear instead of mobs that make up the vast majority of enemy types.

You fail to see that I've provided statistics for most everything I've posted and a video for health:defense ratios

And you continue to argue against a point I haven't made. Everyone else posting seems to understand what I'm driving at, you're the ONLY one lost. Perhaps you should figure out a way to get your reading comprehension level to a point where you can participate with the rest of us.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:12 .

[kstarler]

kelsjet wrote...

sinosleep wrote...
When you combine that with the fact that enemies tend to have close to a 1:1 health/defense ratio (which leans towards health which HELPS my argument) it proves that enemies suddenly dropping like flies to gun fire once you strip them of defenses is exactly what I satated it was. A MYTH.

<snip>
Now, whatever the reasons for this are is not relevant to the discussion
(maybe it can be analyzed in another thread "Why does it *feel* that HP
goes down so fast on defenseless targets?"). The point still stands,
that expecting to have numerous individuals, some of whom can no doubt
articulate much better than you can, to ignore the countless hours of
experience they have had (which is causing them to arrive at the same
conclusion as me) just because you made a few unrelated videos, is not
only futile, but borderline insulting.

Take it how you will.

This reminds me of a saying my father always chided me with when I was growing up.

"Don't try to convince me with facts, my mind is already made up."

EDIT: The cut and paste stuff with these forums is pretty annoying.

Modifié par kstarler, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:27 .

[Ahglock]

One other point about ammo and the adept that I did not see mentioned though I could have missed it. You only have the pistol and the SMG for ammo holders. If you are a vanguard you get the shotgun for another 20ish, infiltrator sniper for about the same effect, soldier, sniper, shotgun and assault rifle for a whole crap ton more ammo. But hey you should be shooting a lot less often as an adept, so you will probably use a lot less ammo overall. But if you do shoot a lot you will run out on adepts and engineers before anyone else.



And kstarter yes the cut and past thing is annoying, doubly so for people like me who want to cut and past into word to spell check. Since this thing does not have a spell check when you quote people and then it kills the formatting when you paste it back in. So I get to choose between ugly formatting or missing a crap ton of spelling and grammar due to my dyslexia.

[sinosleep]

kstarler wrote...

This reminds me of a saying my father always chided me with when I was growing up.

"Don't try to convince me with facts, my mind is already made up."

And he's arguing against a point I never made. I never said biotics kill quicker than guns END OF. That's not my arguement, never has been. I'm dismissing a claim that I see repeatedly made on these boards, "by the time you get an enemy down to health what's the point?" As if enemies have substantially less health than they do defenses when they don't. As if weapons do more damage to health when they don't. As if most powers recieve damage modifiers towards health when they don't.

My argument is quite simply that health, is just as important to get rid of as defenses are and in many cases, actually takes longer since practically everything in the game is keyed towards defenses and not health. That's where all that stuff that he claims is irrelevant comes in.

What makes the biotics useful isn't necessarily killing speed, although there are situations where you can indeed kill enemies quicker with a good combination of powers (aoe overload/pull/warp will kill three grouped enemies quicker than aoe overload/gunfire) it's everything else you get out of it as well.

You can't just instantly kill every enemy on the screen with guns, they are single target weapons when they don't come in the heavy variety. Enemies on health will continue to shoot you in the face just as much as enemies with their defenses intact. And with the use of biotics instead of having to kill enemies one at a time when they are on health, you can pull/singularity and PRESTO GROUPS of enemies aren't shooting you. Even if you don't warp bomb them into oblivion, you aren't getting shot at. Even if only one enemy in the group was stripped of defenses the warp bomb will in all likelyhood not only knock down nearby targets, but strip them of defenses as well setting more enemies up for easy CC.

I would rather not be getting shot at by 3 enemies who are alive than kill 1 while the other two continue to shoot at me. You also conserve ammo, as I mentioned earlier. And if the environment gives you the option you can opt out of high health targets like Krogan all together by simply throwing them off the map.

These are all advantages that may or may not lead to quicker kills, but are advantages nonetheless. Every advantage in the game doesn't need to revolve around a speed test.

[Tony Gunslinger]

kelsjet wrote...
[....]

Eh, I'll give my 3 cents before I go to sleep.

- All guns deal +% damage to armor, shield, and/or barriers
- NO gun deals +% damage to health
- Most enemies have one layer of defense

Therefore when you continuously shoot at any enemy, its defenses will go down by weapon damage + the damage modifer, and once you hit health, the damage modifier is gone, and all you're doing is regular boring weapon damage.

And if the enemy has 1:1 health/defense ratio, speed of damage on defense > speed of damage on health.

Also, your shields go down faster than your health because the bad guys use the same friggin guns as you do.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:56 .

[sinosleep]

@iOnlySignIn

I feel the same way as you do with regards to the ammo powers. They are far more useful for the free CC (which is why I'll say incendiary is better than AP till the die since you can CC whole groups by only shooting at one) than any damage bonuses than may provide.

I guess my mistake on the ammo powers section was I only really considering powers that do direct damage to all targets.

AP does it's damage on health regardless of enemy class, warp ammo works the same way and so I was only really counting those with regards to ammos that do straight damage to enemies since they don't have any of the issues the other types have with regards to how and when they will provide any extra damage for the player.

Incendiary only does additional damage to organics, does it in DOT form, and is more useful for the CC.

Cryo provides a damage boost but you have to wait on the animation and unless you are going out of your way to take advantage of the boost enemies are often dead before you can do much with it. Not only that, but enemies tend to fall down, which if you are playing from range and they are near cover results in more issues since they can fall down behind it. It's also more useful for the CC.

Disruptor as you mentioned is only does direct damage to synthetics and the overheating aspect of it is extremely flaky. It's no where near as reliable as an overload and depends largely on the type of weapon you are using (most ammo types proc far more often with shotguns than other weapons) which is why I only ever use it on synthetics on on infiltrators trying to get OHOK on everything using the widow. On other classes the overheating isn't reliable enough and is why I dismissed it in the OP.

[EDIT HERE]

For everyone have copy/paste issues, here's a work around. Instead of using the quick reply box what you want to do is use the STANDARD FORM. Once in the standard form, and BEFORE you paste anything in click the BBCode box.

Then go ahead and paste the quote/post/whatever inside and click submit.

Your formatting will be the way you want it to be. You can then add in bolds or whatever else by just editing.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:13 .

[Kronner]

kelsjet wrote...

...

A 1:1 ratio (or any other for that matter) has nothing to do with the argument you are making. Your basic premise states that it is easier to kill a defenseless enemy with a biotic attack than it is to kill a defenseless enemy with guns, hence making biotics non-pointless. Whatever the ratio of health to defense is at this point is irrelevant (which is what I actually have been stating for a few posts now), since we are looking at guns vs. biotics on a defenseless target.

...

Why it is more effective to use Biotics and/or tech powers on DEFENSELESS enemies 101

a) No need for precise aim, some powers even hit instantly
Most biotics have an area effect - it is possible to kill more than one enemy with a single power
c) Biotic combos often instantly kill multiple enemies in a large radius
d) Enemies floating in the air/frozen do not shoot at you

Are you actually claiming it is easier to kill DEFENSELESS enemy with a weapon than with a power? Whatever drugs you are on, it must be some proper sh+t.

Modifié par Kronner, 05 janvier 2011 - 10:39 .

[Bozorgmehr]

kelsjet wrote...

Interestingly, this is exactly what I have observed, as I mentioned in some other thread. Biotics are used mainly for "flashy deaths", for actual effective killing, they are pretty pointless.

You're either not really good at observing things or ignorant towards certain game mechanics.

The game doesn't change the amount of ammo that drops depending on class, i.e. a soldier's playthrough wont have more ammo drop. Due to this, if a class can get through the game using just guns (soldier),
then all classes can (especially in ng+ situations, where the weapon disparity is nullified). In short, there is enough ammo in the game to allow you to get through the whole game using just guns. The reason this is so, is since there exists a class that does just that.

Malanek999 wrote...

As a class the Adept is still OK even if it is the weakest. I can't believe anyone could play through insanity
as the adept without using a biotic power. You would run out of ammo for a start never mind lacking the penetration.

The Shuriken and Predator/Carnifex cannot kill the two 'big enemies on planet H' (no spoilers) without using powers (and Heavy Waepons). There isn't enough ammo around, and clips only respawn between fights.

kelsjet wrote...

Whatever the ratio of health to defense is at this point is irrelevant (which is what I actually have been
stating for a few posts now), since we are looking at guns vs. biotics on a defenseless target.

Did you read the OP?

kelsjet wrote...

... most biotics only work on defenseless enemies, and that the ratio of defense to health has nothing to do with whether it is easier to kill a defenseless enemy with guns or biotics.

First you're saying Adepts are gimped coz biotics don't work on protected enemies like they do on unprotected enemies thus Adepts suck on Insanity. The OP tries to point out defenses are easier dealt with (i.e. drop much faster) than health hence make life a lot easier for Adepts. And now you're arguing that doesn't matter? I reckon it was you who said enemies without defenses drop like flies (no biotics needed) - this thread explains it's actually the other way around; defenses drop faster.

If your Adept doesn't have problems with unprotected enemies (yours doesn't need biotics, right?). Then what's your issue with the Insanity Adept? 

kelsjet wrote...

At the end of the day, the overwhelming consensus in this very thread is that people find that when a target is defenseless, his HP goes down super fast to the point where numerous people, not only me, have stated
that they disagree with your statement that HP goes down slowly and that guns are less useful than biotic attacks.

Consensus ain't facts.

- Health : Defense ratio is roughly 1:1 (=fact 1)
- Most powers and weapons receive multipliers against defenses, they deal 50-100% extra damage against defenses vs none against health (=fact 2)

Adding 1 and 2 together dismiss your claims.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:03 .

[kstarler]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

It's pretty obvious to everyone that all sorts of CQC enemies (Krogan, Varren, Husk, Vanguards, and perhaps Geth Hunters as well) have MUCH more health than defense.

Basic non-CQC troopers always feel like around 1:1 to me.

The only cases where sinosleep's theory may not be entirely correct is when Geth Troopers recharge their shields - this effectively doubles their shields (or triples, if they get to do it again). It happens much more often than other defense-recharging enemies: Enemy Vanguards are top priority targets and are rarely given the chance to recharge Barrier. Vorcha recharge their armor too, but they had to remain stationary for a few seconds during the recharge - that usually means death for them.

Geth shield recharge is harder to deal with than Krogan/Vorcha health regen because it's instant, and there's no powers to shut it down for extended amount of time (unlike Incendiaries and Warp/Reave for health regen). Also, Geth have more shields than Vorcha has health (or so I feel) and there's a lot more Geth Troopers than there are Krogans.

Unless you constantly deal massive one shot damage like with Claymore, GPS or Widow, Geth Troopers get plenty of chances to recharge their shields to full - and they do that at the first chance possible on Insanity. Overload/Flashbang delays it for a few seconds but not much (The best counter IMO is Cryo Ammo). Geth Shield recharge can happen even more often if you're soloing - one reason soloing against Geth increases difficulty more than say, soloing against Blue Suns.

I've never really had a problem with geth shield recharges. I notice it a lot more with vanguards and engineers, because the latter tend to duck for cover and leave me dealing with their cohorts, and the former tend to force me into to cover or force me to displace if I'm in cover, which gives them a chance to recharge. While it's a valid point, I think because the majority of enemies do not regenerate defenses, the main thrust of Sinosleep's argument is still valid.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, enemies that regenerate defenses usually don't do so until they are at health, and this would further the argument that it's better to use a power that will disable the enemy than it is to simply shoot them and hope they die before a reload is required and they get a chance to regenerate.

Modifié par kstarler, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:33 .

[Amyntas]

It's not lack of damage, but the fact that CC is limited on higher difficulties. Since almost all enemies have defenses, area of effect CC is not worth the trouble. What's the point of casting shockwave into a group of enemies that still have defenses? You focus-fire on single targets and don't bring down the defenses of all enemies so you can apply CC... otherwise you would get overwhelmed.

Modifié par Amyntas, 05 janvier 2011 - 09:01 .

[AntiChri5]

Aaaaaand subscribed.