132 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahglock]

As far as I can tell The Spamming Troll wants the adept to handle all this on his own(please correct me if I am misunderstanding you). To be fair some classes can and do so easily. Assuming the current defense system is in place he wants the adept to have ways to shatter defenses easily and then be able to follow up with biotics to finish them. He knows he can use squadies to strip defenses, he just does not think the adept should have to rely upon squaides like that.



So the thing is yes, some classes rely upon squad mates more than other classes. No class needs them, but some classes like adepts are more reliant on them. The question is the soldier who needs no squad mates and plays roughly the same on all levels built correctly, or is the adept who needs squad mates and changes up his strategies as difficulty increases built right. Maybe both, variety is the spice of life etc.



But for me I think the adept is built more soundly because things do change as it gets more difficult, and he relies on his squad mates more in a squad based game as difficulty increases. I think that is how it should be designed, the soldier is designed poorly in this regard(and others IMO). Still there is no universal right what people enjoy, so for spamming it might be the other way around.

[sinosleep]

The problem an adept vs insert combat class here discussion with regards to the r/p/s combat system is that what combat classes do is buff themselves where as adepts actually fling powers at enemies. So regardless of difficulty a soldier is still going to get his 100% damage boost during adrenaline rush and nothing that's done to the enemies is going to change that other than a straight up health boost. The same as no buff to the enemy other than a straight health boost is going to stop an infiltrator from getting their cloak and passive bonuses.

Tech classes don't really fit the mold either since their primary abilities are incinerate and overload and they both get modifiers against defenses, so they don't get hit as hard by the r/p/s either since the abilities they happen to be throwing are built to counter that very system.

Then you have a class like the vanguard that's a combat class with a few biotics thrown in there. It has no built in defense stripping power, the class is built to strip defenses by getting into melee range and shotgunning them off. If the r/p/s was tweaked to further hamper combat classes the vanguard would be practically unplayable.

They aren;t going to program a different insanity for every class so I don't really see what all they could really do to force the combat classes to have to rely a bit more on their squads the way a straight biotic class like the adept does. It's not 100% fair, but it's a better solution than custom difficulties (since it isn't feasible), or straight up health boosts.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 janvier 2011 - 05:34 .

[Ahglock]

Without a complete redesign of the combat classes etc. No, I don't see a way to make it so difficulty increases effect everyone equally, or closer to equally. About the only other thing is maybe making sure every power class had all the defense strip powers covered on their own, like non-suck shockwave to make it a shield/barrier strip power as well. Even that might not really do it. But if combat powers were not passive boosts but active powers I think it would go a long way to handling this. Instead of inferno ammo, suppresion fire, hit a 3 meter radius for

X damage a second for X seconds all unprotected targets in the area are pinned down and can't move, or fall prone, or move to closest cover whatever seems balanced. I might also want to play soldier if it had more active powers instead of just passives and Ar spam.



Who knows. I am not even sure it is a problem, different classes play differently some handle change differently etc. Seems good to me since different people like different things. While I disagree with him, I think I get what the spamming troll;s issues are. I think when your favorite class is the class hit the hardest by X, it doesn't matter if X is easily overcome, you still feel put upon.

[Bozorgmehr]

sinosleep wrote...

Throw is good for throwing enemies off ledges but is otherwise crap because it's based on physics damage and so even using the pull/throw combo it often won't kill your target outright.

Pull-Throwing enemies against the ceiling insta-kills them (Pull-Pull against ceiling works too) - enemies must be ragdolled before using another biotic power to make em hit the ceiling and kill them.

And second to last mission? LMFAO, that's a laugh. At 4 recruitment missions you get horizon, ANY 5 missions after that you get the collector ship. If you go on any side quests you can get to the collector ship without having even completed half the recruitment or loyalty missions for crying out loud.

That's yet another myth consistently posted in these forums, how the collector ship weapons are late game. They are mid game AT WORST.

You can get them only with ~20-25 % completed: Mordin, Garrus, Grunt, Jack RM (pick up Zaeed and Kasumi - no missions just get them on Normandy) > Horizon. Having 6 sqaudies you only need to complete 5-6 N7 Assignments to trigger DCS mission (bonus weapon). That's 4 RM, Horizon and the Firewalker missions (=5 missions without bonus weapon).

You can use bonus weapon on: Tali, Legion, Thane and Samara's RM, All LM, Overload, LotSB and all the (action packed) N7 mission and the SM (~75-80% of the game). DCS, 4 RM, 10 LM, Overload, LotSB, a dozen N7 Assignments and the Suicide mission (=18 missions with bonus weapon). Not bad IMHO

[Bozorgmehr]

Posted this in Lazuli's Biotics Restore Barrier thread:

It doesn't make sense that the ME2 Vanguard is so much more durable than the ME2 Adept, while in ME1 it didn't. Vanguard should be less powerful biotics than Adepts, but better with weapons. Something needs to be done about this, question is what to do exactly.

Kronner wrote...

Lowering the Barrier's cooldown (and adding it to Adept's core powers) would work just fine IMHO.

It would, but it could be added to Vanguard's core powers too and removing Charge's shield regen. It would make Charge a more tactical power and add more variety to VG playstyle. Cooldown system has to be redone though; Vanguards should still be able to Charge enemy positions so Barrier should become usable shortly after charging. This would give VG options;
[taking heavy damage], do I continue fighting > Barrier or do I Charge to a more safe position.
[minor damage], do I Charge again or finish enemies with other biotic powers (Slam, Pull, Throw for example).

I think a lot of things could be balanced and improved by a different cooldown system. It's not just the Adept who needs improvements / adjustments IMHO.

Kronner wrote...

That could work

But different cooldown system? Global CD is perfect IMHO.

Yeah I'd like to keep that, much better than ME1 system and I'm not interested in 'mana' and potion drinking in ME3 either:)

But there are many things you could do; like presets (using powers in certain order to reduce their respective cooldown), or by making powers less powerful but at much faster cooldown (like having to use Barrier twice to regain full barrier/shield instead of one), or some 'power-up' system (holding button for a time increases power but cooldown too). Maybe reward using powers succesful (Charge + kill target within x seconds resets cooldown).

I'm just thinking aloud here

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 06 janvier 2011 - 10:27 .

[sinosleep]

@Bozorgmehr



The reason that Vanguards are more durable than their adept counterparts are that they're a combat class while adepts are built to be a caster class, or at least as close to caster class as Mass Effect will allow.



Honestly I don't want charge touched in any way, shape, or form. I think it works great as is and would prefer it make its way to ME 3 unmolested.



With regards to adepts being more powerful biotics I think the fact that they get singularity, warp, nemesis/bastion, and do more damage on lower CD than vanguards makes it pretty clear. I don't really see a problem with the combat class biotic hybrid having stronger defenses than the caster class straight up biotic.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

sinosleep wrote...
With regards to adepts being more powerful biotics I think the fact that they get singularity, warp, nemesis/bastion, and do more damage on lower CD than vanguards makes it pretty clear. I don't really see a problem with the combat class biotic hybrid having stronger defenses than the caster class straight up biotic.

Agreed, it makes sense on every level that Adept is more powerful Biotic than the hybrids, due to it being the pure biotic class. Just like Engineers being the most powerful Tech than the hybrids due to it being the pure tech class. Not saying that the hybrids are gimped or should be gimped, personally I think there is greatness in all the classes. I was never really keen on playing any of the other classes in Mass Effect other than Soldier and Infiltrator but after seeing the initial gameplay videos that Christina Norman made for the classes before Mass Effect 2 came out, it peaked my interest and I've enjoyed playing every class. I like the fact that no class is truly gimped no matter the level and they can be played various ways. In situations like this the balance can sometimes not be right but I think Bioware did a good job in ME2.

[AntiChri5]

Mass Effect 2 has the best implementation of hybrid classes of any game i have played.

[Bozorgmehr]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Mass Effect 2 has the best implementation of hybrid classes of any game i have played.

Which Hybrid classes? Vanguards are no biotics, Infiltrators are no techies and Sentinels are tanks. They spam Charge, Cloak and Tech Armor - all of which are not really biotic/tech powers, BW just labeled them to be biotic or tech.

Since this is way off topic, I started a new thread: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/261/index/5644681

[AntiChri5]

Vanguards are biotics, Infiltrators are techs, and Sentinels are both.

[Bozorgmehr]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Vanguards are biotics, Infiltrators are techs, and Sentinels are both.

On paper yes, in-game no.

[AntiChri5]

Well, if we ignore the class passive for obvious reasons then we are left with.

Vanguard: Two ammo powers, two biotic powers, one unique biotic power.

Infiltrator: Two ammo powers, two tech powers, one unique tech power.

Sentinel: Two tech powers, two biotic powers, one unique tech power.

Soldier: One combat power, three ammo powers, one unique combat power.

Engineer: Four tech powers, one unique tech power.

Adept: Four biotic powers, one unique biotic power.

Looks like three pure and three hybrid classes to me. Only slight problem is Sentinel.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:28 .

[The Spamming Troll]

kstarler wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

well, my mistake. i was under the impression that throw, slam, pull, shockwave, and dominate were useless on protected enemies, werent they?

In fact you are mistaken about throw, slam, pull, and shockwave. They all stagger protected enemies, which can be very useful for stunning and then stripping defenses from multiple mobs. However, you are correct; dominate cannot be used on protected enemies. With that said, when you dominate an enemy, they gain a temporary barrier while fighting for you.

your claiming a .5 second stagger is something effective? theres no point in wasteing a cooldown on a .5 second stagger. not even if the cooldown was .5 seconds. i understand how abilities work. and they dont work on protected enemies, unless your someone who considers an ineffective stagger effect as being something worthwhile. your comparing what should be heavy throw, to a .5 second stagger and calling it effective.......

sinosleep wrote...

@spammingtroll

50% that you has
TONS of instant counters as well as TONS of modifiers for your weapons.
That's the point I've been making this whole time. It's 50% in straight
numbers, but amounts to much less than that in game due to the way the
game stacks the deck in your favor with regards to taking them down.

I'm all for people
disagreeing, but if all you are going to do is pollute my thread with
nonsense about how by virtue of a power not working through defenses
it's automatically worthless, then do me a favor and butt out of it.


With regards to the weapons, you are straight up WRONG. The carnifex
is one of the most damaging weapons IN THE GAME and it's a pistol, and
the smgs more than hold their own against shields. You're calling them
crap without having a damned thing to base it on.

And second
to last mission? LMFAO, that's a laugh. At 4 recruitment missions you
get horizon, ANY 5 missions after that you get the collector ship. If
you go on any side quests you can get to the collector ship without
having even completed half the recruitment or loyalty missions for
crying out loud.

That's yet another myth consistently posted
in these forums, how the collector ship weapons are late game. They are
mid game AT WORST.

first of all, i think you need to get off your high horse. i have equally the same right to post in here as you do, even if my opinions greatly differ from yours. im not violating any ammendments so dont sit there and tell me what i can and cant do on a public forum.

anyways every class gets modifiers and upgrades. its not like the adept is the only class that has access to those things. so whats your point? the adpet can get a better pistol, while the soldier can get a better pistol, AR, shotgun and sniper rifle.

if the carnifax has the best DPS then how come the carnifax isnt as prestigiouse as an ME1 pistol? how come nobody has ever ever ever ever ever said "i only use the carnifax becasue it rocks!" i know all the weapons work great from pistols to snipers, but you telling me that i shouldnt worry about not having a decent firearm because i have the carnifax, is something ill never be in agreement with.

the reaper IFF isnt the second to last mission? isnt that when you get the bonus weapon? or was it actually on the last mission? i dont think you can claim knowing it takes only 5 missions to unlock the collector ship as being a legit excuse. you didnt know that untill you played the game atleast 5 times, or searched feverishly for the quickest way to get a bonus weapon, if in fact you even were aware of being able to obtain a bonus weapon.

Ahglock wrote...

As far as I can tell The Spamming Troll
wants the adept to handle all this on his own(please correct me if I am
misunderstanding you). To be fair some classes can and do so easily.
Assuming the current defense system is in place he wants the adept to
have ways to shatter defenses easily and then be able to follow up with
biotics to finish them. He knows he can use squadies to strip defenses,
he just does not think the adept should have to rely upon squaides like
that.

So the thing is yes, some classes rely upon squad mates
more than other classes. No class needs them, but some classes like
adepts are more reliant on them. The question is the soldier who needs
no squad mates and plays roughly the same on all levels built
correctly, or is the adept who needs squad mates and changes up his
strategies as difficulty increases built right. Maybe both, variety is
the spice of life etc.

i want the adept to be as capable as any other class in the game. you say some classes need squadmate support and some dont......please point out another class besides the adept that NEEDS squadmates in order to play as that class. the adept gets screwed by enemy protections. theres not another class that needs more help then the adept.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:48 .

[AntiChri5]

If your adept experience is so tarnished by enemy shields then simply take energy drain as your bonus power.

[Elite Midget]

Health 'does' have a counter...



Reave.



Against Husks?



Use any level of Throw(I used Level 1) and you can one-shot Full Health Husks on Insanity after breaking their armor which no other ability can do as effectively and quickly.



You also missed that quite a few ablities dont work untill you've broken an enemy down to just heir health.

[AntiChri5]

Reave does not do extra damage to health.

Pretty much anyhing will kill unprotected husks.

[The Spamming Troll]

i could also play on a lower difficulty or simply just not play the game as well. i couldnt imagine an adept without warp ammo, now i cant imagine one without stasis. i have to mod the game in order to fully enjoy it. actually i should say i have to mod the game in order for ME2 to actually resemble ME1.

[Elite Midget]

I'm talking about one shotting in quick succession. No ability can do it as fast as throw does. It doesn't even 'damage' the husks. It simply bounces and kills them no mater where they are positioned on the battlefield. Doesn't matter what level hrow you use the result is the same. One shots and an extremely short cooldown.



I was shotgunning than Throw Oneshotting Husks left and right on my Insanity Runs.

[Bozorgmehr]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Well, if we ignore the class passive for obvious reasons then we are left with.

Vanguard: Two ammo powers, two biotic powers, one unique biotic power.

Infiltrator: Two ammo powers, two tech powers, one unique tech power.

Sentinel: Two tech powers, two biotic powers, one unique tech power.

Soldier: One combat power, three ammo powers, one unique combat power.

Engineer: Four tech powers, one unique tech power.

Adept: Four biotic powers, one unique biotic power.

Looks like three pure and three hybrid classes to me. Only slight problem is Sentinel.

Yeah, on paper. But in-game Vanguards use Charge, Infiltrators use Cloak, and Sentinels Tech Armor - most, if not, all the time. Nothing really hybrid when using one power only IMHO; if the combat/power system was designed in a way those classes actually use all their biotic/tech/combat skills regularly, I would consider them true hybrids.

Now they're basically one-trick ponies (good tricks though) with 'combat' powers (Charge, Cloak and Tech Armor are combat boosting powers, not powers to disable enemies/equipment etc like biotic and tech powers).

[AntiChri5]

i could also play on a lower difficulty or simply just not play the game as well. i couldnt imagine an adept without warp ammo, now i cant imagine one without stasis. i have to mod the game in order to fully enjoy it. actually i should say i have to mod the game in order for ME2 to actually resemble ME1.

You seem to be trying very, very hard not to play the game the way it was intended. Nothing is ever good enough for you. Did you like the ME1 adept?

I'm talking about one shotting in quick succession. No ability can do it as fast as throw does. It doesn't even 'damage' the husks. It simply bounces and kills them no mater where they are positioned on the battlefield. Doesn't matter what level hrow you use the result is the same. One shots and an extremely short cooldown.







I was shotgunning than Throw Oneshotting Husks left and right on my Insanity Runs.

Same can be done with pull. And neural shock, but you have to aim that one.

[AntiChri5]

Yeah, on paper. But in-game Vanguards use Charge, Infiltrators use Cloak, and Sentinels Tech Armor - most, if not, all the time. Nothing really hybrid when using one power only IMHO; if the combat/power system was designed in a way those classes actually use all their biotic/tech/combat skills regularly, I would consider them true hybrids.

My Vanguard Pulls as often as he Charges, my Infiltrator Incinerates as often as she Cloaks and my Sentinel almost never reactivates Tech Armour.

Now they're basically one-trick ponies (good tricks though) with 'combat' powers (Charge, Cloak and Tech Armor are combat boosting powers, not powers to disable enemies/equipment etc like biotic and tech powers).

Just because it augments your combat capability does not prevent it from being a tech or biotic power. That is simply absurd.

[AntiChri5]

Actually, i exagerrated. I do not Pull as often as i Charge, but it is fairly close.

[Elite Midget]

Tech Armor can disable enemies... If you pick the Advance Power - Assualy Armor. The knockdown/stun/self recovery is amazing.

[AntiChri5]

And Charging an unprotected opponent will disablw them.

Cloaking somewhat disables enemies by making them unable to shoot you.

[Bozorgmehr]

AntiChri5 wrote...

My Vanguard Pulls as often as he Charges, my Infiltrator Incinerates as often as she Cloaks and my Sentinel almost never reactivates Tech Armour.

You can 'course use the other powers, but they are inferior in almost every way. Not mentioning how extremely fun Charge and Cloak are. I like to Charge at will and meanwhile toss enemies around using biotics (without breaking game balance).

My Sentinel's strategy is losing Assault Armor fast (just long enough to recast when you're in trouble) - love the knockdown effect

Just because it augments your combat capability does not prevent it from
being a tech or biotic power. That is simply absurd.

Well BW could have named Cloak a biotic power: "Using a mass effect field to camouflage Shepard and become invisible to all enemies."

Biotics are powers to mess with enemies (toss em around or disable them): Pull, Thow, Slam, Singularity, Stasis etc. Powers that Overload enemy shields, overheat weapons, hacking etc are tech IMHO.

Buffs like AR, Cloak, Barrier, GSB, Tech Armor, Fortification and, to a lesser degree Charge, can be named/labeled anything. But since they boost Shep combat prowness and do not actively affect enemies I consider them combat powers. Esspecially powers like Barrier, Fortification and GSB which basically have no difference and offer same bonus (it doesn't even matter if Shep has barrier or shield) yet they are all labeled differently - that looks pretty absurd to me