132 réponses à ce sujet

[kstarler]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

kstarler wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

well, my mistake. i was under the impression that throw, slam, pull, shockwave, and dominate were useless on protected enemies, werent they?

In fact you are mistaken about throw, slam, pull, and shockwave. They all stagger protected enemies, which can be very useful for stunning and then stripping defenses from multiple mobs. However, you are correct; dominate cannot be used on protected enemies. With that said, when you dominate an enemy, they gain a temporary barrier while fighting for you.

your claiming a .5 second stagger is something effective? theres no point in wasteing a cooldown on a .5 second stagger. not even if the cooldown was .5 seconds. i understand how abilities work. and they dont work on protected enemies, unless your someone who considers an ineffective stagger effect as being something worthwhile. your comparing what should be heavy throw, to a .5 second stagger and calling it effective......

In fact, that is exactly what I am stating, because it is an established fact. The ".5 second stagger" has saved my life an innumerable amount of times on Insanity, across different classes. Also, as I said and you conveniently ignored, it allows you to stagger enemies to keep them grouped, so that you can use a squad mate to strip the entire groups' defenses (or use the squad mate to stagger and strip them yourself.) The efficacy of the stagger is well established. Just because you can't (or refuse) to use it effectively doesn't mean it is ineffective.

EDIT: By the way, it would still be kind of refreshing to get a single fact or gameplay video to back up your claim that, "the adept gets screwed by enemy protections. theres not another class that needs more help then the adept." Unless you're perfectly fine with sticking to, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

Modifié par kstarler, 06 janvier 2011 - 08:06 .

[AntiChri5]

You can 'course use the other powers, but they are inferior in almost every way. Not mentioning how extremely fun Charge and Cloak are. I like to Charge at will and meanwhile toss enemies around using biotics (without breaking game balance).

I don't use them nearly as often, but i certainly do use them a lot, and they aren't at all inferior in every way, or invalid choices.

Biotics are powers to mess with enemies (toss em around or disable them): Pull, Thow, Slam, Singularity, Stasis etc. Powers that Overload enemy shields, overheat weapons, hacking etc are tech IMHO.

A pure biotic simply throws biotic powers at the enemy. But a Vanguard is a hybrid, as much soldier as biotic, and uses his biotics to make himself an unstoppable weapon. This is why he is a hybrid rather then simply a biotic with a shotgun.

The same applies to techs.

Buffs like AR, Cloak, Barrier, GSB, Tech Armor, Fortification and, to a lesser degree Charge, can be named/labeled anything. But since they boost Shep combat prowness and do not actively affect enemies I consider them combat powers. Esspecially powers like Barrier, Fortification and GSB which basically have no difference and offer same bonus (it doesn't even matter if Shep has barrier or shield) yet they are all labeled differently - that looks pretty absurd to me

All powers are used in combat, to destroy enemies. Whether they are applied to Shepard or the enemy does not matter.

[The Spamming Troll]

kstarler wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

kstarler wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

well, my mistake. i was under the impression that throw, slam, pull, shockwave, and dominate were useless on protected enemies, werent they?

In fact you are mistaken about throw, slam, pull, and shockwave. They all stagger protected enemies, which can be very useful for stunning and then stripping defenses from multiple mobs. However, you are correct; dominate cannot be used on protected enemies. With that said, when you dominate an enemy, they gain a temporary barrier while fighting for you.

your claiming a .5 second stagger is something effective? theres no point in wasteing a cooldown on a .5 second stagger. not even if the cooldown was .5 seconds. i understand how abilities work. and they dont work on protected enemies, unless your someone who considers an ineffective stagger effect as being something worthwhile. your comparing what should be heavy throw, to a .5 second stagger and calling it effective......

In fact, that is exactly what I am stating, because it is an established fact. The ".5 second stagger" has saved my life an innumerable amount of times on Insanity, across different classes. Also, as I said and you conveniently ignored, it allows you to stagger enemies to keep them grouped, so that you can use a squad mate to strip the entire groups' defenses (or use the squad mate to stagger and strip them yourself.) The efficacy of the stagger is well established. Just because you can't (or refuse) to use it effectively doesn't mean it is ineffective.

EDIT: By the way, it would still be kind of refreshing to get a single fact or gameplay video to back up your claim that, "the adept gets screwed by enemy protections. theres not another class that needs more help then the adept." Unless you're perfectly fine with sticking to, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

the thing is i hate enemy protections. by far the worst possible implementation bioware could have added to its game. anyway you look at it, its something that stops an adept from being an adept. i honestly dont know how you can claim the stagger is anything more then a .5 second stagger. its certain not as effective as the heavy throw i used on the unprotected enemies. ...and why isnt it effective? because bioware didnt know how to make a challenging game for every class, only ones that use guns.

my own personal experience with the game is all i need and thats all youll ever get.

......so is there another class effected as much as an adept on higher difficulties? or has no one made a video to demonstrate that to you yet?

[kstarler]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

its certain not as effective as the heavy throw i used on the unprotected enemies. ...and why isnt it effective? because bioware didnt know how to make a challenging game for every class, only ones that use guns.

my own personal experience with the game is all i need and thats all youll ever get.

......so is there another class effected as much as an adept on higher difficulties? or has no one made a video to demonstrate that to you yet?

I can only refer you to the original post by Sinosleep, which completely dispels this myth. Whether you are displeased by the way the game works is a different matter.

[Praetor Knight]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the thing is i hate enemy protections. by far the worst possible implementation bioware could have added to its game. anyway you look at it, its something that stops an adept from being an adept. i honestly dont know how you can claim the stagger is anything more then a .5 second stagger. its certain not as effective as the heavy throw i used on the unprotected enemies. ...and why isnt it effective?

If I understand you, you want the enemies to ragdoll more often like in ME?

[AntiChri5]

Spam, how would you have changed the Adept from ME 1?

[kmcd5722]

DominusVita wrote...

In all seriousness, that's a pretty good summation. Perhaps they have that idea because in many cases after wearing down an enemy's Shields and Armor, it just seems like a shorter amount of work after that, don't know for sure.

That is the accurate feeling many have, including myself.  After taking out a Blue Sun's Commando's shields and armor, I have only his health left to use pull, throw, etc.

I understand why there is a cooldown for all biotics in ME2 after using one (as that makes sense lore wise),  versus the ME1 system of spam all biotics at once and wait for them all to cooldown individually.  What doesn't make sense to people is why we would have to wait so long to use them (i.e. when health arrives).  

Before anyone jumps down my throat about how you can use say, singularity to stop an enemy from shooting while they have their shields up, this to many is just not as "fun" or "badass" as ME1.  Not everyone here is a god of gaming.  I'm certainly not.  The nuances with the new gameplay feel a lot less badass (my opinion) when I can't throw one person down, lift another, and singularity two more, effectively owning the battlefield in ME1.  And when you have, say, six enemies attacking with full shields, it would be great just to lift one and throw another one off the battefield, or at least temporarily.

Modifié par kmcd5722, 06 janvier 2011 - 10:13 .

[The Spamming Troll]

its not a myth that enemy protections reduces my heavy throw to nothing more then a half a second stagger. does that half second stagger really make you feel like your playing an adept? i dont need a video to show me how "effective" heavy throw is on a random merc with 1 HP of shields. ive seen it. ive done it. ive stopped playing because of it.



if insanity made the soldiers weapons act like potatoe guns or the engineers techs to act like misquitoe bites, then yes, thats something i can compare to the adept. the adept as i see it in ME2 on higher difficulties doesnt resemble the adept i played in ME1. im afraid ill never see an adept like that ever again.

[AntiChri5]

If you just want to walk into a room and "feel badass" then turn the difficulty down.

[Praetor Knight]

I've been thinking, for ME3, maybe instead of completely neutralizing biotics, armor might provide a physics force resistance. Maybe like a 50% resistance so an enemy could still be singularitized, pulled, thrown, slammed, charged and shock-waved but with less damage and distance compared to health, if the concern is rag-dolling enemies sooner.

Shields and Barriers are fine as is, IMHO, and Dominate would only work on an enemy down to health.

[kstarler]

kmcd5722 wrote...

DominusVita wrote...

In all seriousness, that's a pretty good summation. Perhaps they have that idea because in many cases after wearing down an enemy's Shields and Armor, it just seems like a shorter amount of work after that, don't know for sure.

That is the accurate feeling many have, including myself. After taking out a Blue Sun's Commando's shields and armor, I have only his health left to use pull, throw, etc.

I understand why there is a cooldown for all biotics in ME2 after using one (as that makes sense lore wise), versus the ME1 system of spam all biotics at once and wait for them all to cooldown individually. What doesn't make sense to people is why we would have to wait so long to use them (i.e. when health arrives).

Before anyone jumps down my throat about how you can use say, singularity to stop an enemy from shooting while they have their shields up, this to many is just not as "fun" or "badass" as ME1. Not everyone here is a god of gaming. I'm certainly not. The nuances with the new gameplay feel a lot less badass (my opinion) when I can't throw one person down, lift another, and singularity two more, effectively owning the battlefield in ME1. And when you have, say, six enemies attacking with full shields, it would be great just to lift one and throw another one off the battefield, or at least temporarily.

The game is balanced around Normal. Insanity is supposed to be a challenge. If anything, the classes that tend to breeze through Insanity (Soldier/Infiltrator/Sentinel) are too strong in that regard. However, what you have described is quite possible to do on Normal to regular enemies. Frankly, if you could float elites/bosses around while they were shielded, you would have the anit-climax that was the final battle in ME1 all over again. 

WARNING: MAJOR SPOILER IN THIS LINK!!! If you don't believe me, just see what stasis does in this video here. Granted, that fight isn't all that challenging to begin with, but with a power that ignores armor, it is laughable.

The Spamming Troll wrote...

its not a myth that enemy protections reduces my heavy throw to nothing more then a half a second stagger. does that half second stagger really make you feel like your playing an adept? i dont need a video to show me how "effective" heavy throw is on a random merc with 1 HP of shields. ive seen it. ive done it. ive stopped playing because of it.

if insanity made the soldiers weapons act like potatoe guns or the engineers techs to act like misquitoe bites, then yes, thats something i can compare to the adept. the adept as i see it in ME2 on higher difficulties doesnt resemble the adept i played in ME1. im afraid ill never see an adept like that ever again.

Re-read my previous post, because the part of your post that I quoted contains the myth that I was referring to. I'm not going to argue opinion with you. We clearly differ in that arena. If you don't like Hardcore or Insanity, don't play at those levels or mod your game, but don't expect BioWare to change the difficulties or class because you don't want to learn to play effectively at those levels. The game is balanced for Normal. If you don't like that, or think that difficulties below Hardcore are too easy and difficulties above Veteran are too hard/not fun, then complain about it elsewhere, because this thread is about dispelling the myth that it is more effective to just run and gun in ME2 than it is to effectively use powers.

EDIT: Hey Spamming, we agree on something! I don't think we'll ever seen an Adept like the ME1 Adept either! Of course, while it makes you sad, it makes me happy, so...

Modifié par kstarler, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:24 .

[tonnactus]

My issues with the adept were/are other ones ones.That enemies like the ymir and geth primes,where crowd control should be possible,but wasnt available until lair of shadowbroker comes out(and that is downloadcontent people have to money for).And otherwise much of the playtime not more then singularity and warp was used. Use a singularity,shoot away the "defenses",then use warp,rinse and repeat. No need for other powers when the enemie are finished by that.

Yes,and the crap that varren and fenris mechs ignore singularity.

[The Spamming Troll]

kstarler wrote...

blah blah blah

you seem to equate a half second stagger to being how an adept should play, while i think tearing off someones arm or crushing their skull is how an adept should play. id rather have the later.

do you really think your playing an adept, or that your being an effective biotic, when you can only stagger an enemy for half a second?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 07 janvier 2011 - 12:15 .

[tonnactus]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

kstarler wrote...

blah blah blah

you seem to equate a half second stagger to being how an adept should play, while i think tearing off someones arm or crushing their skull is how an adept should play. id rather have the later.

do you really think your playing an adept, or that your being an effective biotic, when you can only stagger an enemy for half a second?

Staggers(from squadmates) are usefull as a live saver for a vanguard.But thats it. Dont need that on any other class.

[The Spamming Troll]

hitting a merc in the head with one of those red rubber playground balls would be more effective then useing heavy throw on a protected enemy.

thats actually quite pathetic.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 07 janvier 2011 - 12:27 .

[Jade Elf]

Heh. I chose the Adept for my one Insanity playthrough(otherwise I always play Hardcore), since I knew it'd be the most fun. And it was!

*shrugs*

[Alamar2078]

sinosleep wrote...

You're misunderstanding my argument. I said enemy DEFENSES are nothing more than a minor irritation and as such if you like adepts on normal, you shouldn't have a problem with adepts on insanity. Defenses are so easily dealt with (the game stacks the deck in your favor so heavily it's ridiculous) that I find it hard to believe you could like adepts on normal but think they are useless on insanity.

The points you are making about beating defenseless enemies down with powers are the same points I'm making. Enemies go down quickly on health because all the inventive ways in which you can take them down at that point.  What other people are arguing is that those inventive ways to take them down are a waste of time cause you should just keep shooting them.

Even on classes like the adept that DON'T receive all the weapon damage bonuses that classes like solders, infiltrators, and vanguards do.

If I misunderstood I certainly apologize.


From what I read you're trying to make a point that it is easy [comparatively] to wipe out defenses while wiping out health, in terms of damage points that need to be dealt, is a least half the battle and often significantly more.   I wouldn't argue with this specific interpretation as it is obviously [IMHO] correct.   I believe that you're also trying to point out that the presence or lack of defenses shouldn't make any difference as to whether you like a certain class or not.

If I'm wrong please feel free to correct me.  [You may need to use small words though :) ]


I can see the points that you are trying to make but I don't agree with the magnitude in which you are trying to make them.  For example when you say "DEFENSES are nothing more than a minor irritation" I would disagree.  I would say that "Health" is a minor irritation simply because once Defenses are stripped dealing with Health is literally child's play because so many CC options become available they are easily "ignored" until it is expedient to get rid of them or use them against the enemy.


[This is my opinion]   You are frustrated with a lot of folks beating on certain classes.  I believe that some of the statements you are making are exaggerated because of frustration.  I would like to point out something you should know though ... you are likely one of the truly elite players of ME2 so your ability to do things that are "trivial" for you other folks actually have to work at.  With my playthroughs [before I "got it" esp.] if I didn't choose a good build, the right squadmates, right weapons, right tactics, etc. I "felt" useless compared to other classes that breezed through the same section earlier.


[Still pure opinion]  On the other hand those folks bashing "useless" classes are probably just frustrated and are getting carried away with their arguements.  It's obvious to anyone if you have "Guns & Powers" if you artificially limit yourself to either GUNS or POWERS but not both then you're taking away from your full potential.

Personally I can't imagine playing an Adept on normal but if that's the game some folks like then I can't possibly see how they would like insanity because on normal an Adept is [almost literally] a GOD ... in insanity they are just another class.   OK ... everyone's a god on normal but with Adepts you really really FEEL godly

[kmcd5722]

AntiChri5 wrote...

If you just want to walk into a room and "feel badass" then turn the difficulty down.

It's funny you say that, as I finally completed my Vanguard Insanity run, and I was pretty frustrated on multiple occasions for making silly mistakes (e.g. thinking the battle is over, only to find another vanguard camping and then getting a shotgun to the face for instant death, so annoying) or for getting torn to shreds for standing behind cover for a half second too long. Instead of feeling rewarded after beating some fight after literally the eighth try, I was just annoyed.  Anyways, this isn't a complaint against Insanity, rather, I would have liked at times to just use some Pull or Shockwave right away, with shields and armor up on the enemies, to just lighten the load of frustration.

I am on my Soldier Normal FemShep run now, and holy crap, its a joke.  YMRI Mechs are just plain pathetic in comparison to Insanity (which, is of course, expected).  My FemShep feels like a BA, although just for the sake of feeling like a badass I might notch it up to Veteran, since enemies die a little too easily.  I'm just replaying for the story, but really a slight challenge might make me feel badass.  Although I am excited I can finally use powers immediately on the mechs, as they don't have the armor.

It just seems silly, that as ex-Alliance commander, Spectre, and Cerberus Captain, realistically, I should have the same armor/shields as a Blue Suns Commando.   No matter how far in the upgrades, Shep should not have his shields torn apart in 1 second for popping out of cover to see where his enemies are.  Just me.

[Schneidend]

tonnactus wrote...

Staggers(from squadmates) are usefull as a live saver for a vanguard.But thats it. Dont need that on any other class.

It's pretty useful for an aggressive playstyle in general, regardless of class.

[sinosleep]

@spammingtroll

I'm not on a high horse, but if all you are going to do is make claims, and then not present a SHRED of evidence while I've posted link after link to dev posts and videos then yeah, I think I"m well within my rights to ASK you to butt out as all you are doing is clogging up my thread with nonsense.

You didn't acknowledge ANY of the vids I posted of making HEAVY use of "useless" powers on insanity because they were ALL powers that don't work through defenses. You didn't because you have no counter argument. And no, saying you are really good and not representative of the average player, isn't an argument either. For one, I don't think I'm a god at this or any other game, and secondly how hard is it to do the things I do in those videos? It's not exactly the hardest thing on the planet, hotkey anti-defense power, use it, then use health only power. Aim weapon at defenses, use it, then use health only power. I deal with defenses quickly and easily which opens up enemies to the abilities I want to use. The way that the game CLEARLY encourages you to do by stacking the deck so far in your favor that it's absurd.

Your reply about the carnifex as EQUALLY devoid of facts. The claim that "people don't use it like the ME 1 pistol" doesn't all of a sudden dismiss the amount of damage it does. I posted a video of how much damage it does, you made a wholly unrelated comment in reply. THAT is why I'd prefer you take your posting some where else.

And with regards to the adept not being a special snowflake because the weapons classes get the same pistol (you said a better pistol, when adepts have use of ALL pistols) and MORE weapons (they're weapons classes, duh?" is yet another non-point. Who cares? They're a weapon class, it makes sense for them to have more weapons than other classes.

And really this whole argument about the classes being perfectly balanced as a whole is ridiculous any way. How many fantasy games are mages FAR AND AWAY the most ridiculous damage dealers while fighter classes truck along in the background? Do people do nothing but complain about how unfair it is that the mages "kill quicker" or don't need as much help on offense when dealing with groups? A group of 3 mages in DA:O will clear content a whole hell of a lot faster than a full 4 man group of melee characters. That's how the game works, that's how most fantasy games work, they don't HAVE to all kill things within a fraction of each other to make for a fun game.

Modifié par sinosleep, 07 janvier 2011 - 03:15 .

[kstarler]

sinosleep wrote...

@spammingtroll

[classes] don't HAVE to all kill things within a fraction of each other to make for a fun game.

That about sums it up for me.

Too bad folks with little to no experience playing on Insanity (I'm looking at you, Spamming) are going to try to redirect the argument, or just continue to make false assertions about how the game plays at a level of difficulty they have only played at once or twice.

EDIT: See the post below mine. I rest my case. If you have no real argument, try to start a new one.

Modifié par kstarler, 07 janvier 2011 - 04:09 .

[The Spamming Troll]

sinosleep,
im not the only one with these veiw points, homey. i didnt even know it was a rule to post links to videos when i signed up.

i never said soldiers get a better weapon. i said the soldier classes get the same upgrades as the adepts gets, regardless if your just upgrading the great carnifax or the GPS/mattock/widow combo. the fact that combat classes get more weapons is a huge disadvantage to the so called "noncombat" classes. isnt that funny, a noncombat class in a so called combat first game....... there isnt a reason in ME2 for sent/ade/engi to start with sidearms. you gotta admit it seems goofy considering how comparable the classes are without weapons.

most of your points mean very little to the way someone plays an adept. the carnifax, the stagger effect, getting a bonus weapon 5 missions after horizon.......those mean nothing to the average mass effect player. useing abilities is what mass effect is all about and enemy protections give me blue balls.

kstarler wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

@spammingtroll

[classes] don't HAVE to all kill things within a fraction of each other to make for a fun game.

That about sums it up for me.

Too
bad folks with little to no experience playing on Insanity (I'm looking
at you, Spamming) are going to try to redirect the argument, or just
continue to make false assertions about how the game plays at a level of
difficulty they have only played at once or twice.

i didnt know there were requirements discussing ME2.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 07 janvier 2011 - 04:08 .

[Schneidend]

Then play on Normal if you're too limp to adjust to the higher difficulty settings.

[Tony Gunslinger]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
most of your points mean very little to the way someone plays an adept. the carnifax, the stagger effect, getting a bonus weapon 5 missions after horizon.......those mean nothing to the average mass effect player. useing abilities is what mass effect is all about and enemy protections give me blue balls.

The average player doesn't play on insanity. Do you have to do these things to beat the game? No, but if you don't want to suck on hardest difficulty, then you must do these things, regardless of class.

I’m going to use Bozorgmehr ‘s video as an example. Between 9 and 20 seconds of this video:



He uses a squad power to strip defense / stagger and follow up with a gun + power combo in one salvo. Players who are either new to this game or play conservatively, do not do any of these things. These players can only see two options: shoot or cast a power. So between the two, shooting is better because there's very little animation delay and you can cancel and control the length of time being exposed. Throwing a power is riskier because the animation can be long and it can't be canceled. There is nothing wrong with not using advanced tricks, but I can see why some players would make a case for why shooting is better than using powers on an enemy with only health left. It is not based on rationale, it's just an instinctive reaction for people who don't take risks. They also don't use the 'wrong' power to stagger enemies and attack because they believe it's inefficient even if that is the only card you can play. It's a habit picked from traditional RPGs.

The example in the vid are things everyone must learn to do if they want to reach the full potential of all their weapons and powers, REGARDLESS OF class. But skills like ARush and Cloak pretty much negates the need to do so, so when players who have only played the Soldier or Infiltrator pick up the Engineer or Adept right afterwards, they're going to take a big premature dump on these two classes, which is what I think is happending. This isn't covered in the tutorial mission because they're not necesary to beat the game, they're stuff people should discover for themselves.

In your case, you're like a player who doesn't want to learn advanced combo moves in a fighting game and then complain you can't pwn it using the basic moves. That's because, you know, you can't.

Both the Adept and the Engineer are the weaker classes because they do not have superhero-like abilties that prevents people from learning and improving their game, but they are the most balanced classes because of it. They both generate rewards that depends on how much the player is willing to take. If you just want a shallow display of carnage to make you feel better, then playing something else.

[Omega-202]

Why is this even being discussed?

If you feel that defenses gimp your Adept, just play on Veteran. I guarantee that my Adept Veteran run was faster than my Infiltrator Veteran run.

Biotics aren't well balanced on Insanity. But instead of ****ing about it, Troll, most of us have accepted it and just changed our play style to compensate.



But on the other hand, I can safely say none of that will get through to SpamTroll.