28 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

i wanted to quote a briliant poster in this forum who brought up an excelent point.....

The Spamming Troll wrote...
adepts suufer alot by starting
with crappy weapons. if the games suppsoed to mainly revolve around
gunplay, like so many people on here claim, then why is my adepts only
somewhat weapon training consists of a pistol and SMG? its not like the
adepts abilities are better then the vangaurds or infiltrators, but i
still dont get their weapons.

how come adepts train with pistols and SMGs and wouldnt want to try out an AR or sniper rifle?

should ME3 adepts/engineers/sentinels start with a weapon more along the level of a starting vangaurd or infiltrator?

[Ahglock]

No. Heck I'd of been fine with just a pistol as an adept and i pick up SMG at the ship. I'd rather they make one of their powers anti-shield so they can rely on powers even more.

[Omega-202]

The fact that Adepts, Sentinels and Engineers lack additional weapons was probably a design decision based on the fact that the other three classes have ammo powers which were probably seen as less impactful than active powers.

Whether you agree with that is another question.

[Bozorgmehr]

On default difficulty level (normal) the caster classes don't need guns much, Adepts can kill faster using powers rather than weapons. Things change playing on Insanity though. Having 'lousy' weapons for starters is main reason why casters are slower/less effective before getting bonus weapon.

Balance is the main issue here IMHO - powers are less effective on harder difficulties while weapons remain powerful. If the devs can correct this somehow, without making powers too powerful, i.e. well balanced weapon vs power combat system, I'll be pleased.

[Kronner]

Every class should be able to use any basic weapon (not all at once). Drop SMG class, merge it with Pistols (so you can have either heavy or machine pistol = no problem with the one slot on the hip for two weapons anymore).

Give basic AR/SR/SG to Adepts, Engineers and Sentinels - only one can be chosen for each mission.

Soldiers get ALL basic AND advanced weapons.

Vanguards get one of the basic weapons and advanced SG; or 2 basic weapons.
Infiltratros get one of the basic weapons and advanced SR; or 2 basic weapons.

Modifié par Kronner, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:07 .

[hong]

Adepts do start with weapon training. That's how you get the SMG, instead of being stuck with a pistol.

[Sparrow44]

Yeah wouldn't have minded the more powerful weapons like the Mattock only available to Soldiers or something like that in ME3 should the ME2 weapons re-appear.

For me it does seem like a balance issue, 'Caster classes' sometimes feel weaker at the beginning due to low level powers, upgrades and the lack of a bonus weapon. However by the time you've got to the Collector Ship you're a lot more powerful and some classes like Vanguard and Infiltrator lose some of their edge and uniqueness as ammo powers lose some of their effectiveness and lack the powers their counterparts do while possibly sharing the same weapon training.

[The Spamming Troll]

Kronner wrote...

Every class should be able to use any basic weapon (not all at once). Drop SMG class, merge it with Pistols (so you can have either heavy or machine pistol = no problem with the one slot on the hip for two weapons anymore).

Give basic AR/SR/SG to Adepts, Engineers and Sentinels - only one can be chosen for each mission.

Soldiers get ALL basic AND advanced weapons.

Vanguards get one of the basic weapons and advanced SG; or 2 basic weapons.
Infiltratros get one of the basic weapons and advanced SR; or 2 basic weapons.

i like that. pistols and SMGs are on handed weapons more along the lines of being sidearms. id rather sidearms be a combination of pistols, machine pistols, and maybe a single shot shotgun. i dont like the idea of telling a soldier "your not trained in that gun so you cant use it." shepards a soldier saving the friggin galaxy, with an SMG!

if you removed every weapon except the pistols and looked at each class, theyd still look and function very evenly. the adept gets stuck with only that, but then the soldier classes get more weapons. it was just something weird i noticed playing my adept. im trying to find reasons why to play an adept in ME2 and there really doesnt seem to be many. a stasis vangaurd can essentially do everything an adept can do, and w whole lot more.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 06 janvier 2011 - 01:16 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

ME1 Adepts and Engineers only had Pistol (unless you give them another with your bonus talent), and ME1 Sentinels didn't even get that. True, in ME1 you could (poorly) use a weapon you weren't 'trained' in, but Pistol/SMG only in ME2 makes a certain amount of sense for those classes. They're not front line fighters or snipers. They're the more 'cerebral' classes, most of their training was in Biotic/Tech skills over weapons.

[The Spamming Troll]

when each classes abilities are all very evenly matched, whats the point of giving sent/adept/engi only the sidearms?



this certainly isnt ME1 anymore.

[AK404]

A part of it, I think, has to do with making the casters more 'open' as opposed to more specialized classes like Vanguards and Infiltrators.  I haven't played an adept yet, but hear me out!

For example, when you look at the vanguard's class power, your mind immediately opens up to weapons that are more effective in short range and your playstyle moves along the lines of working with biotic charge; it doesn't work like that for caster classes.  Though I can see a Vanguard using an assault rifle as a stronger form of SMG, I can't imagine a Vanguard using a sniper rifle because it isn't enhanced by any of the Vanguard's powers.

On the flipside, Infiltrators seem to be long-range specialists because their class abilities seem to be centered around that sniper rifle, and if you choose the Widow, you're more or less intending to master the OSOK route; however, if you choose the shotgun as a new weapon, a whole new playstyle has to be learned that forces you to use your powers in ways that couldn't be done with a sniper rifle (which only goes to show you how versatile the Infiltrator really is).

I think it goes the same way with the adept: the weapon you choose goes a long way in determining what kind of playstyle and powers you're going to adopt and use, which is why I think Bioware makes the adept and engineer start with a pistol and SMG.  You start working along a play style, and by the time the Collector Ship comes along, you get to decide among three routes: close-quarters, long range, or a reinforcement of the stock playing style of the caster.  How have you been using your drones - do you use them as a distraction while you plink away at range, or do you like to get as close as possible for a close-range headshot?  What kind of biotics are you using - do you like to reel them in with pull then shotgun one as you prepare to throw them down, or would you like to spray ammo as singularity does its work?

Granted, this intent is totally borked by the way adepts access their powers, but as I said, bar napkin theory.

Modifié par AK404, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:37 .

[weedlink10]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

ME1 Adepts and Engineers only had Pistol (unless you give them another with your bonus talent), and ME1 Sentinels didn't even get that. True, in ME1 you could (poorly) use a weapon you weren't 'trained' in, but Pistol/SMG only in ME2 makes a certain amount of sense for those classes. They're not front line fighters or snipers. They're the more 'cerebral' classes, most of their training was in Biotic/Tech skills over weapons.

thats the thing all the classes are soldiers, soldiers should be train with which weapon they want, with all so repect i think Bioware did it wrong with the weapon and powers system, it should have been

soldiers: all weapons, all ammo powers and all combat powers
 
adepts: all biotic powers and the choice of two weapons

engineer: all tech powers and the choice of two weapons

vanguard: charge, shotgun, choice of aother weapon,  the choice of two biotic, ammo and combat powers.

sentinel: tech armor, choice of two weapons, tech and biotic powers

infiltrators: cloak, sniper, choice of another waepon, choice of two tech, ammo and combat  powers




but no class chosses another class mian power, i think this system works best is more flexible and lets the player switch ups things every playthru.

Modifié par weedlink10, 10 janvier 2011 - 08:45 .

[mcsupersport]

Actually AK404, a Viper on a Vanguard is a very handy and deadly thing to have. It gives the Vanguard long range, to reach out in the times when you don't/can't charge. It also allows you to play a more caster base for some missions, allowing for greater play variance. I find the Viper/Eviscerator combo on Vanguards to be my favorite style of play. When you remember the Viper has one of the best abilities to strip armor added to the Inferno ammo skill, you get a great anti-armor gun that can be used up close or long range.





What I would like is the ability to pick a weapon specialization on Horizon instead of the later collector ship. This way you would get your bonus weapon earlier and thus have more use in the game. Either that or have it part of picking your character class and bonus talent.

[BurnedToast]

There's absolutely no (story, not game balance) reason Shepherd, who's N7 (highest rank special forces, remember) shouldn't be able to use an assault rifle or shotgun competently no matter what his area of expertise.



I'm not saying an adept should be as accurate and damaging as a soldier or combat hybrid but to not let him use them (especially when he can magically learn to use one instantly halfway through) or to make it absurdly and cartoonishly inaccurate (like ME1) is just stupid.



Even if you argue it from a time constraint point of view (as if basic competency with a weapon takes years of mastery, ha) he could just as easily spent that time on the range learning to use a rifle instead of a pistol. It's not like learning to shoot a rifle is 10x harder then learning to shoot a pistol after all (if anything, it's easier, since pistol are not super accurate like video games like to portray them)



From a game balance point of view... meh. Powers are so relatively weak on the harder difficulties (thanks to protection stopping the CC effect and the stupid global cooldown) I don't think it would break anything, and on the easier difficulties who cares since you can just roll your face on the keyboard and win anyway?

[Bogsnot1]

This thread is probably the best argument you can get for a return to ME1 style achievements.

ME2 achievements = "I just turned a black and white piccy colour. How pretty."

[khevan]

I don't honestly have a problem with "caster" classes being limited in the weaponry they have available, as their powers make up for much of the loss in firepower. However, I'm fully in agreement that we should be able to choose which weapon we have available. I would totally love to rock a Mattock/Locust Adept for example. As it is now, I can play this way, but I have to either wait for the Collector ship (and somehow magically learn how to use an assault rifle) or I have to play a NG+, which I'm not particularly interested in doing.



I would say that from a story perspective, learning to perfect the use of biotic or tech abilities takes up enough time that an Adept, Sentinel or Engineer cannot learn the same amount of weapon skills that the more combat oriented classes can, and obviously no one can learn the same as a Soldier, so overall the system makes sense. I just wish we could pick which weapon we wanted to specialize in at the beginning of the game, rather than halfway thru.

[FlintlockJazz]

I agree with there being no reason to limit the adept or any other class from having assault rifles. All soldiers get assault rifle training in basic training, and if you take just a pistol to a frontline battle you will just get killed (pistols are used as a backup weapon when you have ran out of everything else and you have no other option, as they lack the range or stopping power to get through most modern body armour). The current weapon restrictions is a holdover from D&D-style "Mages use dagges lolz" classism thinking that really has no place in a hybrid RPG/Shooter, and really makes no sense in the system used in ME2, it should rather be the powers that matter (especially since they cost the same points regardless of class).

There are other reasons why I would want assault rifles open to all as well: with assault rifles as the standard weapon you can then add the grenade launcher as a underslung attachment to it, meaning that you don't have to switch weapons to use it! It also frees up the pistol to be depowered. Now before you scream "What the hell are you smokin'?" hear me out: Shepard is wearing essentially powered armour, if it doesn't stop bullets from a piddly little sidearm then it's not doing it's job, and makes him look like a muppet for wearing it especially when he has teammates wearing just latex and still getting the same defensive ability.

I propose instead that it's role is altered: Shepard (and all teammates, I'm pro-armour for teammates) wears the armour when he can and gets his assault rifle then, but in places like the Citadel and Illium he doesn't get to walk around in full battle gear, since it draws attention and is supposedly illegal (yes I know Spectres are supposed to be able to carry weapons every, but Shepard isn't one at the start of ME2 or even ME1 and yet he can still carry guns everywhere, and that Spectre thing was just a blag for gameplay purposes anyway).  Instead he walks around in casual clothes (and yes that means Miranda can then wear her latex pants she loves so much, I'll still insist she would wear armour when appropriate) that has less defense but so does his enemies, and instead of the assault rifle he is limited to the pistol (and perhaps SMG), and so is his enemies, changing the style of play depending on the setting he is currently in.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 10 janvier 2011 - 10:51 .

[Zahe]

Adepts are fine with SMGs/Pistols, if you think the game is too hard then turn the difficulty down.

[Bozorgmehr]

Zahe wrote...

Adepts are fine with SMGs/Pistols, if you think the game is too hard then turn the difficulty down.

Adepts are fine without weapons. What does this have to do with anything?

Soldiers don't need guns either, ARush + melee will kill everything also.

[Zahe]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Zahe wrote...

Adepts are fine with SMGs/Pistols, if you think the game is too hard then turn the difficulty down.

Adepts are fine without weapons. What does this have to do with anything?

Soldiers don't need guns either, ARush + melee will kill everything also.

In a topic about Adept's starting weapons I thought it would be fitting to voice my opinion regarding Adepts and weapons. They have all they need.

[Bozorgmehr]

Zahe wrote...

In a topic about Adept's starting weapons I thought it would be fitting to voice my opinion regarding Adepts and weapons. They have all they need.

Fair enough. If you're fine with the HP and SMG then don't use bonus weapon. I (and I believe most other posters here) like using more powerful weapons. In fact, my Adept would happily give up her HP, SMG and HW to get a proper SG or AR instead (she doesn't need the other weapons).

Suggesting others should decrease the difficulty level is completely beside the point here; I like playing a CQC Adept and to do so my Adept needs a real gun on Insanity (I don't think Adepts can play CQC without bonus weapon btw).

[Zahe]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Zahe wrote...

In a topic about Adept's starting weapons I thought it would be fitting to voice my opinion regarding Adepts and weapons. They have all they need.

Fair enough. If you're fine with the HP and SMG then don't use bonus weapon. I (and I believe most other posters here) like using more powerful weapons. In fact, my Adept would happily give up her HP, SMG and HW to get a proper SG or AR instead (she doesn't need the other weapons).

Suggesting others should decrease the difficulty level is completely beside the point here; I like playing a CQC Adept and to do so my Adept needs a real gun on Insanity (I don't think Adepts can play CQC without bonus weapon btw).

Don't worry, I rarely use the bonus weapon while playing the aformentioned classes. While playing as Engineer or Adept on Insanity you actually have to use your brain once in a while unlike some other classes, relying on the bonus weapon is just a way of dumbing it down for me. The same goes for Medkits and Heavy weapons as well. When people suggest changes to make the game even easier, I have a hard time not to cringe. Also, there is a reason I have only two completed runs but a lot of unfinished ones. After a certain point the difficulty goes downhill, thanks to stuff such as upgrades and bonus weapons.

And while my suggestion about decresing the difficulty may not be blantantly obvious it isn't besides the point. If someone make a suggestion about buffing a class (not tweaking, not rebalancing just plain out buffing) one can only assume the OP thinks the class is bad. There are two solutions to that: Get better or turn the heat down. I sounded arrogant enough without telling people they need to improve as well, so I went with the other route.

[Doctah T]

My only complaint is that my engineer has to wait until the Collector ship to get a shotgun. I'd much rather have classes choose a bonus weapon from the start. And maybe for those who choose advanced training in a weapon class (the Revenant, the Widow, or the Claymore), they get a bonus to weapon damage, and the gun itself later.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Zahe wrote...

In a topic about Adept's starting weapons I thought it would be fitting to voice my opinion regarding Adepts and weapons. They have all they need.

Fair enough. If you're fine with the HP and SMG then don't use bonus weapon. I (and I believe most other posters here) like using more powerful weapons. In fact, my Adept would happily give up her HP, SMG and HW to get a proper SG or AR instead (she doesn't need the other weapons).

Suggesting others should decrease the difficulty level is completely beside the point here; I like playing a CQC Adept and to do so my Adept needs a real gun on Insanity (I don't think Adepts can play CQC without bonus weapon btw).

id trade my pistol, SMG, bonus weapon, and heavy weapons, just to get one weapon that i actually like. hell id also throw in shockwave as well.

its weird i can fire a pistol, an smg, and a freaking mini nuke launcher, but an AR or sniper rifle arent even an option? well i guess not untill i stumble across a pile of weapons on the collector ship. its too bad i cant get a gun from cerberus, or buy one, or kill a merc and steal his. i mean im pretty sure i could shoot an AR without training, and im sortof a moron.

....untill i stumble across that one dead geth on haestorm, im sick and tired of mercs making fun of me and laughing at me and my shiruken.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 13 janvier 2011 - 01:03 .