170 réponses à ce sujet

[Epic777]

^^ In other word earn your happy ending and with a high emphasis on earn?

[Babli]

AwesomeName wrote...
What are your hopes and concerns?

Hopes - return to ME 1 feeling, deep experience and great atmosphere.
Concerns - explosions and cool stuff. That is nice when playing for first time, but its boring in 5th playthrough. Look at ME 2. 

[Bamboozalist]

AwesomeName wrote...

I'll agree to that - I hope the whole situation feels like it's crushing down on you ala "Order 66"; I hope at some point in the middle of the game, one of our companions stays behind to save the rest of us, and fights the hardest fight they've ever fought ala Asuka's final battle in Evangelion; and I hope that, ultimately, Shepard's final mission is heart breaking and the emotional culmination of everything she's ever prepared for (possibly like the idea in my yellow sig).  But after Shepard does whatever she does to beat the Reapers, I hope the epilogue has the possibility of her dieing or surviving the whole ordeal.

But Asuka's final fight in EoE wasn't hard at all. I love Asuka and that fight was cool to watch but the MP Evas BARELY fought back. The entire fight consisted of either them standing around waiting to get the crap kicked out of them. The two that actually bothered to fight back consisted of one slugisly swinging around its weapon and the other one literally simply jumping on Unit-02 and then doing absolutely nothing, like it got tired of standing around and decided to speed up the process of getting its ass kicked. It's like saying that Mike Tyson beating up a bunch of toddlers is a hard fight.

I would like to point out that they magically gained speed and agility once she ran out of power so that they could properly rip her appart.

[Sailears]

AwesomeName wrote...

Curunen wrote...

I admire the passion with which you wrote the OP, and if anything I'm sure the Bioware staff have more passion for the universe they created than most fans, so I'd imagine they would want to pull on our emotions as much as possible.
That's my optimistic veiwpoint at least.
Ah, this is general discussion so I'll have to be vague; the last planet in ME1 everything came together, music, battle pacing, plot reveals.

I sure hope so.  And if they pulled off an ending in a similar vein to this (for a Shep that's romanced someone) I'll probably geek the hell out and shed a tear.... I have to be careful with that post though - it needs to stay deep within that thread and not get too much attention...

Oh and thanks - that was really nice of you to say

That ending goes well with the music; yeah something with that sort of feeling would be amazing.

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Phaedon wins this thread.

Must be all those calibrations - enhanced his wit.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Babli wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...
What are your hopes and concerns?

Hopes - return to ME 1 feeling, deep experience and great atmosphere.
Concerns - explosions and cool stuff. That is nice when playing for first time, but its boring in 5th playthrough. Look at ME 2. 

I wish there was a Like Comment feature.

[Fiery Phoenix]

In plain English, what AN is saying is we don't want to get our happy ending without having suffered a great deal first. "Suffered" includes the physical, social, and psychological levels on Shepard's part (mostly).

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 07 janvier 2011 - 07:02 .

[xXSnak3Eat3rXx]

Agreed.

A large scale space battle between the Reapers and all the galactic species would be THE most disappointing ending...ever.

[DJBare]

Phaedon wrote...

I only partially agree with the OP. I want ME3 to be a gut wrenching experience, but not to the point that it makes me feel bad and that I don't enjoy the game.

Agreed, there has to be some kind of balance reached, I for one certainly do not want to be forced down a route unless it's a consequence of my actions.

As for the power the reapers SHOULD posess, they have an obvious weakness, the same weakness as the rest of us, the need for resources, they hibernate for 50'000 years, I don't believe this to be some random figure, every 50'000 years they need to replenish otherwise they die or deactivate or whatever, they are not eternal as sovereign claims.

[Dune01]

Terror_K wrote...

I want them to go back to the more classic sci-fi stylings that were a great homage to sci-fi from the late 70's to early 90's of ME1 rather than the more bombastic, less mature, Modern Hollywood approach ME2 gave us. More Blade Runner, Wrath of Khan and Babylon 5 and less Michael Bay's Transformers, xXx and G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra.

For the 100th time: This.

[Bamboozalist]

AwesomeName wrote...

Boo, that's beside the point of the scene dude...  Here's my interpretation of it and why I think it would work:

"It's a very moving scene that initially inspires pride in the human will (in a way, Asuka is one of humanity's greatest champions) - but in the end, Asuka's victory is overuled by the inevitablity of armageddon, and you're just left with the hopeless feeling that the coming events are unstoppable.  Imagine one of our strongest companions in a similar fight, symbolically representing galactic civilisation the same way Asuka represented humanity, with the same heart-breaking result - I think that could be a really effective way of bringing home the gravity of the situation on a personal level."  Taken from here.

Just try to focus on the symbolic/thematic side of the scene for a moment rather than the technicalities of the fight itself...

No, the point of the scene was for Asuka to finally realize that her mother was always with her and didn't "abandon" her giving her the strength to carry on again only to ultimately fail, yet again (Because Asuka does two things consistantly well, fail and not win. She's so good at failing that when a Zoo in Japan named a lion after her it got bullied by the other lions, because that's how much the Universe hates her). Nothing in Eva is about humanity winning against the Angels or any of that. It's a character drama about not being a shut in, accepting other people, and learning to love yourself despite the world being a hard place where you can't always get what you want. You could replace gigantic bio-mechs with underwater basket weaving and probably tell the same story. Anno just chose giant robots because he was a fan of Mecha and liked stuff exploding, but the important stuff is what is happening to the characters not the battle itself.

Now that I'm done disagreeing with you, yes I would like to see something where its a hard fight, not like Asuka's last stand, but something like final battle in Saving Private Ryan where one by one people die off and it feels like a forlorn hope situation. But at the same time I also want there to be a perfect ending avalible since Mass Effect as a whole is based on sci-fi and action adventure cliches (think of the great adventure trilogies, a main character dies off in the first act (Virmire) and then everyone else survives) and as a dicision based trilogy where it's up to the player to craft the events around them not having a perfect ending would be wrong.

[Bamboozalist]

AwesomeName wrote...

Yeah... that's what I just said   I'll ignore everything else you said about the scene, because I was never debating what the scene was about in the context of Evangelion, I was taking the important aspects of it and making an argument for how the same ideas could be applied to the ME story.  Why you felt the need to argue what the scene was about in the context of Evangelion I don't know *shrugs*. 

No, you said to focus on the symbolic/thematic part of the fight which I did. Symbolicly it was Asuka accepting herself allowing herself to carry on and ultimately fail. Jack would be the closest thing ME has to Asuka in that they're both gigantic balls of emotional ****ed up and baggage who push people away for fear of getting hurt, but Jack deals with that stuff in ME2 through her loyalty mission and through either Shepard being her LI or her friend if femshep. So symbolicly it doesn't work for ME because there wouldn't be a character to achieve catharsis and make a final last stand ending in their defeat since 90% of the ME2 loyalty missions involved fixing characters emotional baggage.

Thematically it doesn't work because Asuka isn't the champion of humanity.
1)She never fights for anyone but herself
2)The MP Evas are controlled by SEELE who are humans along with the JSSDF.
3)It was a poor last stand thematically, it lacked tension and real drama because the MP Evas stood around like a bunch of retards. It looked cool but looking cool does not make for good drama, the Star Wars prequels can attest to that.

So sorry, it doesn't work. It's a cool scene but not something that is an example of thematics that would apply to ME and the fight against the Reapers. There are plenty of other final stands that fit better, like hell even the final stand in the piece of crap that was Matrix Revolutions would fit better.

[Bamboozalist]

AwesomeName wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...
/snip

Can't you just focus on the emotional aspect of the scene and nothing else?  How it makes you feel?  That's what I think could be applied to ME extremely well.

You didn't say that. You said look at it from a symbolic and thematic stand point, which I did.

But how does it make me feel? Nothing, because it was a crappy last stand. It wasn't inspiring, it didn't feel like Asuka really accomplished anything in the fight againt the MP evas. Her revelation about her mother and rising up against the JSSDF were far, far more emotional because that was the main emotional focus of the scene.

Her final stand doesn't work because it has no emotional value, watching it I feel nothing, I feel bad when she gets ripped apart in a horrific fashion, but if the only reason a character death impacts you is simply because they died and not the stuff leading up to their death it doesn't make for a good last stand. It's not like she died fending off hordes upon hordes of enemies so that the others could get away and she died because she ran out of ammo (I guess you could equate power to ammo, but not being able to fight back because your gigantic bio-mech doesn't work isn't really the same). Furthermore because the MP Evas barely fight back there is no sense of impending doom, it doesn't have that no matter what you do you can't win.

TL;DR - You're idea is good, the example sucks.

Edit: Now that I think about it, her running out of power is why her final stand sucks, because right before that happned she got an LoL to the face, and watching her carry on a desperate attempt to fight back in a blood rage as she was slowly torn appart would have had an actual emotional impact.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 07 janvier 2011 - 08:28 .

[cachx]

Soldat13 wrote...

cachx wrote...
I just want it to be a fun and compelling experience like the previous 2 were. (Well sorta, I'm long past pretending that ME1 was "fun").
And that's all I got to say.

So what do you think made ME2 fun? Knowing this will help us know what you expect in ME3.
I think that ME1 was fun because the story was intriguing and the action was good. With ME2 they dumbed the story while focusing on more action but it was still a good combo. There has been a quite a bit of time between ME2 and the announce of ME3. I hope they bring a greater story into it while keeping a similar battle system so that we still have improved combat. However without the story then the game is just lasers and explosions. Very dull. VERY DULL.

The OP focuses on the story, or on feelings... or something like that.
To me for the experience to be "fun and compelling" it needs the perfect marriage between story and gameplay (not necessarily a carbon copy of ME2). Purple prose alone is useless to me.

It's going to be really hard to balance putting the hero's to hell and win without making it seem like an ass-pull

[Nightwriter]

I'm a little betwazzled today. Maybe you could help a sista out and tell me: is this essentially asking, would you rather have an emotional experience, or an exciting KA-POW! action one?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm a little betwazzled today. Maybe you could help a sista out and tell me: is this essentially asking, would you rather have an emotional experience, or an exciting KA-POW! action one?

Rather, it is asking: Would you like to have a profound emotional experience in the inevitable KA-POW! action one?

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 07 janvier 2011 - 09:42 .

[Phaedon]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

In plain English, what AN is saying is we don't want to get our happy ending without having suffered a great deal first. "Suffered" includes the physical, social, and psychological levels on Shepard's part (mostly).

In that case I misunderstood, this, I can agree 100% with.

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm a little betwazzled today. Maybe you could help a sista out and tell me: is this essentially asking, would you rather have an emotional experience, or an exciting KA-POW! action one?

Those are not opposite things, you know.

Modifié par Phaedon, 07 janvier 2011 - 09:48 .

[Bamboozalist]

AwesomeName wrote...

OKAY.  Dude, I apologize for giving you the wrong impression - I meant to say, "focus on how it makes you feel."  I didn't expect you to put yourself into the position of overthinking the whole thing... You can relieve yourself now and let it go... 

That's fine that it doesn't make you feel anything.  For you it's a bad example.  For me, and some others who have commented on the idea in other threads, it's awesome and works brilliantly.  Moving on...

No, I just want you to stop underthinking the whole thing. Explain to me WHY it makes you feel that way. Why is it a good last stand (not a good death but a good last stand, there is a difference)? If you can't come up with a reason beyond Asuka dying and the fact that it looks cool for why it moves you, then it doesn't work. Explain why the fight has emotion to it. If a character is sacrificing themselves there has to be emotion to it beyond their death, you have to feel like they accomplished something by sacrificing themselves.

Like if you chose to go to the AA tower on Virmire and it immediately cut to the person you left at the bomb site dying and then the Geth trying to disarm the bomb (would they simply crouch next to it and hit E until the bar filled up?), but it still going off anyway. It would completely lessen the experience, where as seeing them injured and fighting off Geth, it makes you feel like they died making sure the job got done.

[Bamboozalist]

AwesomeName wrote...

@Bamboozalist, I already did explain how it makes me feel - repeating that isn't going to change how you feel about it. That's not how it works. You watch something, then you have a reaction to it - a reaction unique to you. That's it. That's the subjectivity of art. Now just accept that some things aren't going to invoke the same emotions in everyone and move the hell on - you're just going off-topic and being deliberately antagonizing.

Firstly. No, you explained that her death is what has the emotional impact, which I agree with, not why the fight itself was emotional. Secondly, if I was trying to antagonize you I wouldn't be asking for a thought out discussion. Thirdly your using the scene as an example of something you want to see emulated in ME3 as part of this hoping that ME3 will be art, I'm on topic by saying I want to see a last stand but I don't want it to be like what you're using as an example and explaining why I don't want it.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're off-topic and antagonizing, discussion is the point of a forum, if everyone agrees then discussions are very short.