88 réponses à ce sujet

[Lewie]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Yet again, how are you going to injure someone wearing heavy armour given only a knife? You can always counter heavier armour by using faster projectiles (e.g. if the enemy is wearing sword-proof plate armour you use gunpowder), but you can't easily increase the stab force.

Thats where warp and overload from your team come in, if an enemy is weakened then, and maybe only then it should work.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

One could argue that the knife would be able to go through the spaces of the armour?

[Vaenier]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Yet again, how are you going to injure someone wearing heavy armour given only a knife? You can always counter heavier armour by using faster projectiles (e.g. if the enemy is wearing sword-proof plate armour you use gunpowder), but you can't easily increase the stab force.

Energy knife. Its like an energy sword, only smaller. Will melt right through the armor with its plasma.

[Pedro Costa]

Captain Crash wrote...

I used to think people made too big a deal out of melee. Mainly those used to playing FPS like Halo. But after playing as a Vanguard you realise how usefull it is and how it does need an upgrade. For virtually every other class though its not actually needed. The only time I used it not as a vanguard is when your being swarmed by husks on the defunked Reaper.

So yes it needs an overhaul slightly, but not to the imaginative standards I have read of some people. Those who like it up close and personal certainly deserve a better system that I have no doubt.

I'm a Vanguard 95% of my playthroughs, and I never, not once, found a problem with melee. It times perfectly with reloading the shotguns/animation canceling, if the animations are changed to something more complex or time consuming, all the advantages a vanguard has in using melee go out of the window.

tl;dr: leave it the way it is, please. 

[Lewie]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

One could argue that the knife would be able to go through the spaces of the armour?

Would work for mercs, any human enemy it is possible.

Considering the reapers on earth, and who we will actually be fighting, if its geth (re-write or not) i would say give me an ipod that i could upload into their collective minds at full volume.

[didymos1120]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Yet again, how are you going to injure someone wearing heavy armour given only a knife? You can always counter heavier armour by using faster projectiles (e.g. if the enemy is wearing sword-proof plate armour you use gunpowder), but you can't easily increase the stab force.

Invent some SFnal explanation for the effectiveness of the knife.  It's only been done about a bajillion times over in various media.  I'm sure something half-plausible involving an ME field around the blade (generator's in the hilt, obviously) could be worked up.  A "disruptor blade" or whatever.

[Praetor Knight]

More animations please, I would not mind Shep throwing a left elbow every now and then at least. A pistol whip here and there could be fine too.

And I would not mind if the melee attack did less damage than in ME2, as long as there is a stagger effect I'm cool.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you are in melee range, you are doing it wrong.

This.

If you have to use melee than you're playing wrong.

Lets break this down a little:


Melee = Close Range
Vanguard = Close Range Specialists
.... yeah if you're not using melee as a Vangaurd, you're doing it wrong

[Dean_the_Young]

Melee = hand-to-hand/foot/claw/tentacle.



Vanguard = Close Range Biotics/Shotgun-to-face/hand/foot/claw/tentacle specialist

[AlexMBrennan]

We seem to have gone from debating whether Shepard requires better melee skill ("Shepard should have hand-to-hand training", OP) to whether Mass Effect should have energy/disruptor knifes (or another effective melee weapon).

Judging from the fact that no one has ever used a knife like this in ME, ME2, Galaxy, Revelation, Ascension or Retribution it seems unlikely that ME verse was intended to feature epic light sabre duels. This could always be retconned but that doesn't seem like a good idea.

As for game play, I don't think melee weapons are a good idea either - you get enough people who seem to think that the future of modern warfare is a bunch of guys dual-wielding knifes; this makes the games a bit too silly for my liking.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 06 janvier 2011 - 12:44 .

[Element_Zero]

didymos1120 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Yet again, how are you going to injure someone wearing heavy armour given only a knife? You can always counter heavier armour by using faster projectiles (e.g. if the enemy is wearing sword-proof plate armour you use gunpowder), but you can't easily increase the stab force.

Invent some SFnal explanation for the effectiveness of the knife.  It's only been done about a bajillion times over in various media.  I'm sure something half-plausible involving an ME field around the blade (generator's in the hilt, obviously) could be worked up.  A "disruptor blade" or whatever.

Interestingly enough plate armor and chain mail in the mid evil age didn't protect solders from stab - thrusting from swords to the extent some might think. . . But it really protected you from slashing moves from swords which were very devistating -vs- the stab - thrust motion. Now this said, don't expect a broadsword to just easily punch their way though these types of armor. . . And what brought about it's downfall? Well the weight - lack of mobility from that heavy stuff - vs - arrows. . .

Now chain mail did provide better protection with thrusts . . . until solders started arming themselves with thinner blades and the stuff also did better at protecting the user from bows, again until special tips were made for arrows.

[Element_Zero]

Oh and the only reason why I know this is because I was always going to make a set of chain mail for fun and for use during the Renaissance Festival. . . IRL

Modifié par Element_Zero, 06 janvier 2011 - 01:56 .

[Praetor Knight]

Element_Zero wrote...

Interestingly enough plate armor and chain mail in the mid evil age didn't protect solders from stab - thrusting from swords to the extent some might think. . . But it really protected you from slashing moves from swords which were very devistating -vs- the stab - thrust motion. Now this said, don't expect a broadsword to just easily punch their way though these types of armor. . . And what brought about it's downfall? Well the weight - lack of mobility from that heavy stuff - vs - arrows. . .

Now chain mail did provide better protection with thrusts . . . until solders started arming themselves with thinner blades and the stuff also did better at protecting the user from bows, again until special tips were made for arrows.

Actually gun powder brought an end to armor. The armor might remain intact but the concussive force would still transfer to the user and cause trauma. And then full plate armor in those days was like owning a Lamborghini or Ferrari today, so that armor type was rare anyway.

Also a padding liner was worn under the chain mail, but there were other types used, like ring or scale to just name two (that's why every knight, sergeant or man-at-arms would carry a dagger, and they would typically target the armpit, groin and a few other vulnerable areas that were not covered by armor when in close combat).

Arrows did not really affect heavily armored or properly shielded armies. Crossbows were more effective at defeating armor, but were often reserved for repelling sieges and assaults on fortifications.

Also, possibly the best armor ever made was the Greek Linothorax, but it did not cover the entire body and the techniques to make it are rather complex.

I could write more but I'll stop now.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:31 .

[cachx]

You know, we're talking about melee in a universe were biotics can kill with a single kick. A lot of people tend to forget that. In the comic, Liara often went kung-fu on the baddies.

Doesn't solve the problem for all classes, but I thought it was worth exploring.

[Element_Zero]

@ Praetor Shepard

Yup you are right, and even back then during the early ages low velocity muskets had some trouble piercing armor plate and some types of scale armor. (the Chinese used pressed paper scale if my memory serves me right!) But I guess the point I was trying to make with out going into a huge post.

Was offensive weapons were constantly being developed to overcome the defensive abilities armor posed. With the way the game has developed (thermal clips + shotguns) I think the guys running Vanguards have a point, and so do others who fight close up. . . Or maybe I would see solders start carrying them again since they are limited in the amount of shots they can fire. . (a sort of last resort, or a weapon that could be used should a problem arise.)

Modifié par Element_Zero, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:45 .

[Praetor Knight]

Element_Zero wrote...

offensive weapons were constantly being developed to overcome the defensive abilities armor posed.

I agree, and I wonder how that could be applied in ME3, depending on when it starts from the end of ME2.

I'm open to what can be added for combat in ME3.

Regardless, I'd like more available animations so combat looks more natural and fluid, both at range and in melee.


**********************************
I wonder if one could get some kind of carpal tunnel from so many right elbows?

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:55 .

[didymos1120]

cachx wrote...

You know, we're talking about melee in a universe were biotics can kill with a single kick. A lot of people tend to forget that. In the comic, Liara often went kung-fu on the baddies.

Doesn't solve the problem for all classes, but I thought it was worth exploring.

Not to mention, people are complaining about "Oh, how is just hitting stuff effective" when Shep is a CYBORG at this point.  Now read all those "Heavy Bone Weave" and "Heavy Skin Weave" upgrades.  Also: you might try reading some of the armor component descriptions: Shep is often wearing powered armor.  Sure, it's not like Starship Troopers (the novel), or Iron Man, but it's part of the lore and has been since ME1 (Kinetic Exoskeleton, Motorized Joints, Combat Exoskeleton, etc.).

Modifié par didymos1120, 06 janvier 2011 - 03:02 .

[282xvl]

Vaenier wrote...



If you are in melee range, you are doing it wrong.

OH MY GOD YES. THIS.



!!PLEASE!! Don't turn my ME into a stupid fantasy sword game. If you take a fist to a gun fight, you will (and damn well should) LOSE. If you take a knife to a gun fight, the same applies. Same for a sword, or a mace, or a hammer, or a flail, pike, halberd or ANY medieval/fantasy weapon. If you take them to a gun fight you will get shot down at range and you damn well deserve it for being a complete retard.



Melee combat in ME 3 could certainly stand being a bit more artistic but it should NEVER be on par with gun combat. Sorry but if you love melee combat and want swords and ninja kung-fu then please play a fantasy game. Melee is and should always be an afterthought in ME development. Something that happens rarely if ever, and only viable against weakling or 90% dead enemies. "Melee weapons" should never never never never never be included in ME.

[Praetor Knight]

282xvl wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you are in melee range, you are doing it wrong.

OH MY GOD YES. THIS.

!!PLEASE!! Don't turn my ME into a stupid fantasy sword game. If you take a fist to a gun fight, you will (and damn well should) LOSE. If you take a knife to a gun fight, the same applies. Same for a sword, or a mace, or a hammer, or a flail, pike, halberd or ANY medieval/fantasy weapon. If you take them to a gun fight you will get shot down at range and you damn well deserve it for being a complete retard.

Melee combat in ME 3 could certainly stand being a bit more artistic but it should NEVER be on par with gun combat. Sorry but if you love melee combat and want swords and ninja kung-fu then please play a fantasy game. Melee is and should always be an afterthought in ME development. Something that happens rarely if ever, and only viable against weakling or 90% dead enemies. "Melee weapons" should never never never never never be included in ME.

But what if you're a Vanguard?

[didymos1120]

282xvl wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you are in melee range, you are doing it wrong.

OH MY GOD YES. THIS.

!!PLEASE!! Don't turn my ME into a stupid fantasy sword game.

Settle down.  No one suggested anything of the kind.  The OP just wanted a couple extra melee moves, not the ruination of ME.  A couple of us toyed with the combat knife idea.

HYSTERICAL ALL-CAPS NOT REQUIRED.

Modifié par didymos1120, 06 janvier 2011 - 03:15 .

[Seblin]

For the people saying "if your using melee, your doing it wrong". Level up charge on a Vanguard and try to play without melee. You kill much slower, yet "safer" if you prefer.

Or grab a shotgun and charge right in, shotgun has to reload and you have all this time in between, that's right...MELEE!



Vanguards are all about doing it head on, in the enemies face. We need better melee!



Just a side note, I build my Vanguard with the Mattock and Reave for longer range combat, I try to keep my Shep's versatile. 80% of my Vanguards fighting is zip-lining into a enemies face and doing a weird shoulder shrug in between shotgun rounds.



We do not need any new weapons for melee, we just need to utilize the fact that biotics can tear armour apart, or crush it. Give biotic Shep's some more options at least, as we see Samara laying the smack down with just biotics.



The other aspect is Shepard is this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HofoK_QQxGc...change the million to billion though.



As far as I could tell to rebuild Shep they put in cybernetic enhancements that could potentially make him stronger, plus the fact his armour is powered.



I am not looking for knife fights or kung foo fighting. All I would like is a combo of attacks that melee could do. Maybe timed strikes, if you catch them while still stumbling you add another attack to the chain, with potential finishing moves if armour/sheilds/barriers are down. You are occupied doing melee combat, so it makes you vulnerable to gun fire which would help with balance.



I by no means think we need to make melee more useful than guns, I love the shotty and would not have it any other way. I just like having something to chain in between, or more options for varied combat.

[InvincibleHero]

282xvl wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you are in melee range, you are doing it wrong.

OH MY GOD YES. THIS.

!!PLEASE!! Don't turn my ME into a stupid fantasy sword game. If you take a fist to a gun fight, you will (and damn well should) LOSE. If you take a knife to a gun fight, the same applies. Same for a sword, or a mace, or a hammer, or a flail, pike, halberd or ANY medieval/fantasy weapon. If you take them to a gun fight you will get shot down at range and you damn well deserve it for being a complete retard.

Melee combat in ME 3 could certainly stand being a bit more artistic but it should NEVER be on par with gun combat. Sorry but if you love melee combat and want swords and ninja kung-fu then please play a fantasy game. Melee is and should always be an afterthought in ME development. Something that happens rarely if ever, and only viable against weakling or 90% dead enemies. "Melee weapons" should never never never never never be included in ME.

I don't know the krogan battlemaster in ME1 could pretty much take you out with one charge. i agree with the sentiment though. Don;t make ME into a D&D or a Street Fighter 4 clone. Adding more variety to the moves wouldn't hurt a thing. Maybe even flanking kills would be nice, like a little head twist whikle they are shooting at your buds. It would give the Infiltrator some more viability at least. Go cloak and find some crunchies.

[didymos1120]

InvincibleHero wrote...

 i agree with the sentiment though. Don;t make ME into a D&D or a Street Fighter 4 clone.

Again: no one's asking for that.  Not in this thread, anyway.

[Assasin4Hire]

Just remember: all that time you're standing there giving you target the old 1-2-3 you're enemies are linin' up head shots

[Lewie]

didymos1120 wrote...

cachx wrote...

You know, we're talking about melee in a universe were biotics can kill with a single kick. A lot of people tend to forget that. In the comic, Liara often went kung-fu on the baddies.

Doesn't solve the problem for all classes, but I thought it was worth exploring.

Not to mention, people are complaining about "Oh, how is just hitting stuff effective" when Shep is a CYBORG at this point.  Now read all those "Heavy Bone Weave" and "Heavy Skin Weave" upgrades.  Also: you might try reading some of the armor component descriptions: Shep is often wearing powered armor.  Sure, it's not like Starship Troopers (the novel), or Iron Man, but it's part of the lore and has been since ME1 (Kinetic Exoskeleton, Motorized Joints, Combat Exoskeleton, etc.).

Good point. Considering shepards strength a melee in the face for eg would leave someone jawless. Maybe not but if there were any improvements they would have to be very specific, maybe even just for vanguard up close. I like the point about more biotics, picking something up and throwing it at someone. Yeah.