161 réponses à ce sujet

[adam_grif]

I wasn't commenting on the quality of reapers as villains, just pointing out that his statement about them being "original" wasn't true.

[Dionkey]

The Smoking Man wrote...


Would have been so much better. And made the pulpification thing make more sense.

Is this in the artbook? I must've missed it. Talk about missing out on a giant win here. I wouldn't even mind if they retconned this back in, as hard as it may be.

[The Smoking Man]

Dionkey wrote...

Is this in the artbook? I must've missed it. Talk about missing out on a giant win here. I wouldn't even mind if they retconned this back in, as hard as it may be.

Yes. Here's a higher res version.

[The Big Nothing]

GnawLF wrote...

Its only Human goo by our understanding, we dont really know what the Reapers do with the said "goo" or how they modify it. In any case its obvious that the reason the Reapers need the "goo" is to manipulate Mass Effect fields, that is why they are so interested in the Human biotic potential and the Ascention Project.

You just blew my mind.

I have no problem with human-reaper as long as he is the inside of the Cuttlefish and not some prototype for Terminators.

[ZLurps]

AwesomeName wrote...

I think it's a perfectly fine idea that each Reaper is basically the evangelionisation of a particular species... If that's the case, then I hope that the human reaper was supposed to go into a cuttlefish type shell - and that it was no more special, or just as special, as any other Reaper.

This. There are concept art linked in similar topics like this showing that "human" part was only supposed to be part of Reaper.
Original at the Mass Effect Wiki: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Human-Reaper
Pic made based on concept art in older topic: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1248456/3#1250783

I think there is nothing wrong with the concept but maybe somehow Reaper larva failed to be menacing enough "end boss". Maybe last battle weren't that difficult at least difficulty set to normal, or maybe it was just over really fast... maybe larva design in game could have been bit more fusion between human and Reaper.

I guess I try to say that maybe some players who think human Reaper larva weren't satisfying experience aren't complaining about the concept but perhaps the way it was executed in game didn't meet their expectations?

Myself, for me ME1 and ME2 are among the best gaming experiences I'v ever had and for me keeping the whole squad alive meant more than the end boss and I'm really looking forward for ME3.

[Captain Crash]

adam_grif wrote...

The Reapers were original

That's a negative Cap'n.

They evoke Revelation Space's Inhibitors very strongly.

Its long been established that these ideas have been done before.  Its making a twist or a development to the ideology that creates a new version that grips an audience.  Mass Effect did that with a unique development to the said established norm. Its completly original in that sense.   Avatar for example was an original movie in so many ways but you can say the story and premise had been done a dozen times before.   Knit picking at established molds of concepts is just pointless and futile.

What the Baby Reaper did was invoke a memory, a image and a scene from something already well established in popular culture.  That being the Terminator.   Its fine basing ideas and concepts of established ideas. In fact its nigh-on-impossible not to.  However invoking images of one of the most famous movies ever wasnt the smartest of things for a game which did so well in creating a unique and original basis.

[SarEnyaDor]

The Smoking Man wrote...


Would have been so much better. And made the pulpification thing make more sense.

This is so much better. It gives you that gut wrenching feeling I'm sure they wanted. Maybe the fight would have been more akin to the Thorian node fight (shooting attachments to make it fall and die whilst battling seeker drones and collectors and Harbinger) instead of an actual battle, but it would have been better.

[Dionkey]

adam_grif wrote...

I wasn't commenting on the quality of reapers as villains, just pointing out that his statement about them being "original" wasn't true.

I know, I was just pointing out that the idea is very good in the first place. No matter where you go with it you will run into something we already guessed or that they are the beginning of the universe and the end of it. I can`t hate Bioware for this, no game has really done it. Inception is the only piece of media that has ever had me say it is truly original.

[lawp79]

For me it wasnt the whole terminator thing, it was the sudden apparent lapse in voice acting (male shep) which I usually find to be above average in the world of gaming at least. "Not just any reaper.......a human reaper" was just total ham in both its writing and its delivery.

Male sheps voice acting had lapses throughout the game tbh, if it was down to the editing or the actual acting idk, either way I dont remember ME1 to suffer from it in the way ME2 did.

[Vaenier]

The fact the human Reaper existed destroyed all credibility of the Reapers as villains. They went from dark mysterious calculating machines who are killing the galaxy for a reason you cant understand, and they became nothing more than a group of morons who go out of their way to waste time and resources.

The fact is was added solely for shock value did not help. It just makes the entire series look weak.

This does not even get to the stupidity of blending people to turn into building materials... The fact the Reaper was being constructed and not grown in its game form, its obvious terminator look, how stupid it was for it to look so human, random 3 eyes, horrible boss mechanics, and complete pointlessness to even attack it if you are about to blow up the base in a few seconds... There was simply nothing good about it.

[adam_grif]

Its long been established that these ideas have been done before. Its making a twist or a development to the ideology that creates a new version that grips an audience. Mass Effect did that with a unique development to the said established norm. Its completly original in that sense.

What exactly do you think is the "original take" on this that makes the Reapers "original"? Ancient race of machines that returns to wipe out advanced civilizations when they crop up before going into hiding" is precisely what the Inhibitors do in Revelation Space. The Citadel trap is reminiscent of the numerous artifacts that the inhibitors leave - obviously unnatural constructions that no star-faring race could ignore, which activate to let the Inhibitor's know it's time to pounce on a juicy new civilization. The only major difference here is that the Reapers are operating on a 50,000 year cycle, when the Inhibitors just wake up whenever a new spacefaring race is detected. The Reapers also left the Relay network, but that's just ripping off other works instead -the jump gate network, the stargate network to name two.

I am not saying that being derivative ruins something, because everything is ultimately derivative of something else - what I'm saying is that this is derivative, and very little is "original", especially not the Reapers.

Avatar for example was an original movie in so many ways but you can say the story and premise had been done a dozen times before. Knit picking at established molds of concepts is just pointless and futile.

Bringing up Avatar as an example isn't doing your position any favors since it's infamous for being shamelessly unoriginal. It is a carbon copy of the plot to Dances With Wolves, right down to tiny things like the main characters having leg injuries, the scene where they tame a local animal to impress the tribe etc. It just happens to be set IN SPACE with BLUE ALIENS instead of ON EARTH with NATIVE AMERICANS.

Even the design of the ISV Venture Star is a revamped version of the Valkyrie Antimatter Catalyzed Fusion Drive seen in other works (the guy who made that was technical adviser on Avatar. Remote piloting of bodies isn't really new either, my favorite being Forever Peace, the biggest difference there being that it's a robot body instead of a clone body. Big deal! That book actually dealt with serious issues instead of making unnecessary statements like "wiping out local populations so you can strip mine their sacred lands is bad ok". Geeze Cameron, I didn't realize that! Thanks for enlightening me. The planet is alive, a single giant unified consciousness in communion with the local flora and fauna? Hey, ever played Sid Meier's Alpha CentarI?

YAWN.

Modifié par adam_grif, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:27 .

[Vaenier]

Nothing is original anymore. Its how you use those ideas that counts.

[Fredvdp]

Wouldn't it be awesome if the PS3 version had a completely different Human-Reaper design? That's purely hypothetical, though, because we all know it won't happen.

[Captain Crash]

Vaenier wrote...

The fact the human Reaper existed destroyed all credibility of the Reapers as villains. They went from dark mysterious calculating machines who are killing the galaxy for a reason you cant understand, and they became nothing more than a group of morons who go out of their way to waste time and resources.
The fact is was added solely for shock value did not help. It just makes the entire series look weak.
This does not even get to the stupidity of blending people to turn into building materials... The fact the Reaper was being constructed and not grown in its game form, its obvious terminator look, how stupid it was for it to look so human, random 3 eyes, horrible boss mechanics, and complete pointlessness to even attack it if you are about to blow up the base in a few seconds... There was simply nothing good about it.

Agree with completly there vaenier.

Looking at the Baby Reaper was immediately meant to create a shock value element. But if I go back to my last paragraph in my above post, creating an image of one of the most distinctive images in popular culture that everone can identify meant comparisons would immediatley be made. The Reapers unique style and imagery has suffered directly because of a poor choice in direction. The above concept art would have been so much better for shock value as it doesnt straight away represent anything compariable in our minds.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:38 .

[Captain Crash]

adam_grif wrote...

YAWN.

Reads Post

*Sigh*

So ok nothing is original anymore, Mass Effect then is a copy of a copy and nothing in it is unique or original.

 

Modifié par Captain Crash, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:52 .

[Vaenier]

Captain Crash wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

The fact the human Reaper existed destroyed all credibility of the Reapers as villains. They went from dark mysterious calculating machines who are killing the galaxy for a reason you cant understand, and they became nothing more than a group of morons who go out of their way to waste time and resources.
The fact is was added solely for shock value did not help. It just makes the entire series look weak.
This does not even get to the stupidity of blending people to turn into building materials... The fact the Reaper was being constructed and not grown in its game form, its obvious terminator look, how stupid it was for it to look so human, random 3 eyes, horrible boss mechanics, and complete pointlessness to even attack it if you are about to blow up the base in a few seconds... There was simply nothing good about it.

Agree with completly there vaenier.

Looking at the Baby Reaper was immediately meant to create a shock value element. But if I go back to my last paragraph in my above post, creating an image of one of the most distinctive images in popular culture that everone can identify meant comparisons would immediatley be made. The Reapers unique style and imagery has suffered directly because of a poor choice in direction. The above concept art would have been so much better for shock value as it doesnt straight away represent anything compariable in our minds.

The concept art is much better. It fixes the horrible design of the terminator, changes it so that it is actually growing organically instead of being cunstructed piece by piece, and would probably fix the battle mechanics of it. It would stand out, not be compared to other movies. The final scene would go alot better. I would hope they give an actual reason to shoot at it instead of completing your mission, but that is unlikely to occur.

It still does not fix the fact that all their motives come down to just building another Reaper in the slowest most difficult way possible. It is unfortuneate, and likely Bioware will try to bootstrap something in the end of ME3. But its too late then, changing it after the fact does not make up for the story so far.

[Dreddo]

its funny how you talk about the human reaper and how stupid it was to add it to the game, when you have no idea what the reapers were actually doing with it. Who knows what their plan was? and imo it didn't destroy the theory/pov towards the Reapers at all, since the reapers were only indirectly involved with it. The collectors were the "makers" through the "brain" of harbinger.



The only thing that really is a bit messed up about it though, is that it kinda destroys what Sovereign said: "We simply ... are." - Ofc the reapers have to come from somewhere, by someone, but we have never been told that they were created, so that they suddenly starts to create a human reaper seems a bit odd. It's not like they would need more reapers when you look at how many you see with Harbinger awakening in Dark Space.

[vehzeel]

I wasn't particularly fond of the endboss either. Couldn't we have fought the Collector-General, or something? He is directing the burning avatar, and probably also the other collectors. If we reach his chamber, we could've cut off the hydra's head, so to speak. The Reaper-baby was dormant til we started shooting it, couldn't move, and was dependent on those tubes to feed/survive so why bother?

[Bourne Endeavor]

What I found irksome beyond the horrendous design was the plot; the little that existed, itself makes the construction of a Human-Reaper nigh impossible. Granted, it was only hypothesized Earth was their eventual target however presume such was accurate. The Collectors have a solitary flagship and they are going to invade Citadel space? They would be annihilated. So either EDI was widely mistaken or Harbinger is a complete moron.

[KainrycKarr]

Nightwriter wrote...

People think the science - or lack thereof - behind the Reaper is silly. The fact that it looks like a Terminator is just icing on the cake.

Making fun of the similarity is just capitalizing on the fact that the whole idea is silly in general.

This.

[Vaenier]

What is the point of building it out of people? You can construct the ship with conventional methods and fit it with a conventional AI core and it would be exactly the same. Nothing about Sovreign was unique or special enough to grab the Citadels attention, it was all just metal and circuitry. The Derelict Reaper was just metal and circuitry, nothing was interesting enough for the scientists to focus on. Nobody said "look, this metal's structure looks organic," it was all just plain old metal you dig out of rocks. So what was the point? Shock value, cheap thrills?