161 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

AwesomeName wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

What is the point of building it out of people? You can construct the ship with conventional methods and fit it with a conventional AI core and it would be exactly the same. Nothing about Sovreign was unique or special enough to grab the Citadels attention, it was all just metal and circuitry. The Derelict Reaper was just metal and circuitry, nothing was interesting enough for the scientists to focus on. Nobody said "look, this metal's structure looks organic," it was all just plain old metal you dig out of rocks. So what was the point? Shock value, cheap thrills?

It's not just building material - Harbinger obviously viewed it as some kind of "ascension".. the idea being that they put all the individuals of a given species together to create an "ascended" super being ("a state compelling to the Geth").  It's been done before - e.g. the "Link" in Star Trek DS9 or the Human Instrumentality Project in Evangelion.

I thought EDI said that Reapers were of organic and synthetic construction (presumably based off of Cerberus research on the derelict Reaper)?

so just copy the minds and move on? You could copy them on site and not even bother with the meatsacks. Also the Reaper could be fully constructed in secrecy before you try to build an operating system out of people [which if it really was about using people, they would never help the reapers, so are aparently brainwashed, negating the gain of ascension...]

I thought that was inside the Collector base she said that.

[Dreddo]

ok so i think we can conclude that the end of ME2 was a bit thin, and that we hope for a better one in ME3 =D right?

[Bourne Endeavor]

AwesomeName wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

What I found irksome beyond the horrendous design was the plot; the little that existed, itself makes the construction of a Human-Reaper nigh impossible. Granted, it was only hypothesized Earth was their eventual target however presume such was accurate. The Collectors have a solitary flagship and they are going to invade Citadel space? They would be annihilated. So either EDI was widely mistaken or Harbinger is a complete moron.

This is why I kinda feel like the human reaper was just a bit of a side story in the overall plot. Having said that, I'm perfectly satisfied if it's meant to serve as an explanation for why the Reapers cull the galaxy every 50,000 years i.e. to make a new Reaper (if there's a worthy enough species for a given iteration - presumably the protheans weren't?) and to cull whatever's left to avoid a reprisal.

We are in agreement, although it would require some writing mastery to articulately define a damaged plot. I suppose we could hypothesis that organics were to develop in a predetermined capacity and perhaps evolved beyond the anticipation of the Reapers. Sovereign echos such insinuations with his remark about organics being a genetic mutation. Therefore, what we witnessed in ME2 was the basis for correcting a perceived abomination. Humanity was chosen due to Shepard interference or perhaps Harbinger strategized human colonies in the Terminus would be ignored. This still leave the idiocy of even considering attacking Earth unanswered but at this juncture I cannot say it can be. Maybe Harbinger already knew the Reapers were on their way. That is the only logical conclusion I can derive.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 05 janvier 2011 - 04:17 .

[GreenDragon37]

It's just... kind of... lolz worthy. 

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 janvier 2011 - 04:50 .

[Dreddo]

@AwesomeName

well i cannot say what i wish of ME3 ending as there is no ending on that list, and i don't know where to even begin. What i can say is that i hope for an ending where you can chose different endings, and that its not completely over there. You should still be able to walk around and take long serious chats with your team mates, that is if you survive ofc



im just looking forward to it, and hope not to be disappointed =)

[Dreddo]

also i like your epic idea of an ending(with Liara(love that "****", coolest char in the game) and the tunnel). It could be an nice ending, bc its sad(tbh i almost felt like crying just listening to that music and reading it) but it doesn't have to end sad, it can still be a moment of joy.



I cannot set up a scenario that would be as close as yours, but i can tell you what feeling im looking for. The feeling i got when Lord Of The Rings: The Return Of The King ended. That was an overwhelming feeling of sadness, breathtaking awesomeness, and "love" =D



THAT'S what im looking/hoping for

[Weskerr]

JedTed wrote...

A lot of people complain that the Human Reaper looks like a Terminator to much but how is that any different from the Rachni resembling the bugs in Starship Troopers?  There's lots of other things in ME that resemble stuff from other sci-fi but they don't bring down the quality of the story at all.

I just had to vent that because i'm sick of people always bringing up Terminator when they talk about the Human Reaper.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1314064

[AnubisXy1]

The human Reaper basically showed the end-game for the Reapers altogether. 

Throughout the first game (and most of the second game) we thought that the Reapers were a race of robots who descended across the Galaxy like locusts, wiping out all life every few million years for some unknowable reason.

The human Reaper larva showed us that the Reapers likely have a different goal in mind once we assume that this is simply how Reapers are created. According to Sovereign on Virmire each Reaper is composed of countless individual beings - presumably the thoughts, memories and conciousnesses of the beings that were "mushed up" to create the Reaper in the first place.

Certainly Harbringer's statements (multiple) about human ascension give us a window into what the Reaper's ultimate goals are. They're not simply murdering galactic races. They wait until races have proven themselves "worthy" by proper utilization of the technology the Reapers left behind. Harbringer's comments suggest that they don't plan to punish the organic races but reward them.

Then the Reapers appear and "reward" those races by harvesting and turning them into new Reapers. Organics can't understand this so many fight back and have to die, but the Reaper goal isn't extermination but ascension - immortality as part of a machine collective. For the Reapers this is clearly a positive thing - those organics are not dead. To the contrary they are now immortal and will exist forever inside of a new mobile Reaper body.

So the Reaper Larva was very important in that respect, though I'm not the only one who did not overly like the appearance. I think the fetus look in the art that was posted would have been much more disturbing than the skeleton.

Modifié par AnubisXy1, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:15 .

[RiouHotaru]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

What I found irksome beyond the horrendous design was the plot; the little that existed, itself makes the construction of a Human-Reaper nigh impossible. Granted, it was only hypothesized Earth was their eventual target however presume such was accurate. The Collectors have a solitary flagship and they are going to invade Citadel space? They would be annihilated. So either EDI was widely mistaken or Harbinger is a complete moron.

Or, they had some other plan.  I love how everything lols at the Human-Reaper because it doesn't make any logistical sense.  And then it somehow slips people's minds that the Reapers are completely beyond human comprehension.  Nothing they do makes sense because we're viewing it from our limited human perspective.  We have no idea why they do the things they do or how they do them.  They're an unknown menace whose motives and goals are a mystery.  THAT'S THE POINT.

As for the "human goo" being nonsensical, again, we don't know what they do, or how they do it.  EDI was only making wild speculative guesses based on the limited information she had.  She knew about as much as Shepard did at that moment, so she did a few thousand calculations and data-cycles and whipped up what she felt were some educated guesses.  She's theorizing as much as we do on the forums.  Besides, how do we know that the Reapers don't have such advanced technology that even as goo the humans don't retain some mental sense of "self"?  Anyone remember this infamous quote?

"Sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

[RiouHotaru]

^Except a fetus makes even less sense than the skeleton. What, is that thing supposed to "grow up"?

[Exiled Eagle]

RiouHotaru wrote...

^Except a fetus makes even less sense than the skeleton. What, is that thing supposed to "grow up"?

I would rather have a dormant fetus that just looks creepy than a half Terminator shooting red energy balls at me.

[wulf3n]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Or, they had some other plan.  I love how everything lols at the Human-Reaper because it doesn't make any logistical sense.  And then it somehow slips people's minds that the Reapers are completely beyond human comprehension.  Nothing they do makes sense because we're viewing it from our limited human perspective.  We have no idea why they do the things they do or how they do them.  They're an unknown menace whose motives and goals are a mystery.  THAT'S THE POINT.

As for the "human goo" being nonsensical, again, we don't know what they do, or how they do it.  EDI was only making wild speculative guesses based on the limited information she had.  She knew about as much as Shepard did at that moment, so she did a few thousand calculations and data-cycles and whipped up what she felt were some educated guesses.  She's theorizing as much as we do on the forums.  Besides, how do we know that the Reapers don't have such advanced technology that even as goo the humans don't retain some mental sense of "self"?  Anyone remember this infamous quote?

"Sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Which is perfectly fine for reality...but this is a story. Doing things that go against the core perceptions of how the universe works, without offering ANY explanation is going to alienate the majority of the audience.

[The Smoking Man]

RiouHotaru wrote...

^Except a fetus makes even less sense than the skeleton. What, is that thing supposed to "grow up"?

Sure. It makes more sense than the Terminator that was somehow infused with gray "genetic paste" (that actually appeared orange) and had 3 eyes. What makes it even better is that it's the shortest boss fight ever if you bring the Cain with you. You'd think they'd have built the thing to be sturdy enough to not crumble under one shot from a small arms explosive weapon.

Also, artistically, it (as in Terminator Kong, not the fetus) looks nearly identical to a boss in some old 2D sidescroller game. The name of it escapes me at the moment, though; otherwise I'd have a picture. It's been posted before in another one of these threads.

RiouHotaru wrote...
Or, they had some other plan.  I love how
everything lols at the Human-Reaper because it doesn't make any
logistical sense.  And then it somehow slips people's minds that the
Reapers are completely beyond human comprehension.  Nothing they
do makes sense because we're viewing it from our limited human
perspective.  We have no idea why they do the things they do or how they
do them.  They're an unknown menace whose motives and goals are a
mystery.  THAT'S THE POINT.

There's a difference between being a Lovecraftian horror and being a laughing stock. Trollbinger's lame voice and even lamer one-liners on top of it really don't help. This villain decay is worthy of more than a few facepalms.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:02 .

[luakel]

The Smoking Man wrote...
Also, artistically, it (as in Terminator Kong, not the fetus) looks nearly identical to a boss in some old 2D sidescroller game. The name of it escapes me at the moment, though; otherwise I'd have a picture. It's been posted before in another one of these threads.

Hmm, I know the pic you're talking about and this isn't it, but this scene from a T2 Arcade Game does look awfully similar to what we got at the end of the SM:

[Destroy Raiden_]

It’s terminator baby! For the sole fact it doesn’t belong artistically with the series, it’s made up of goo which is only good for brickwork, and it makes no sense! BTW I didn’t get the whole Starshiptroopers vibe from the Rachni Queen maybe because there wasn’t horde of hugely overgrown bugs trying to eat me just like I didn’t do Shop of Horrors on the Feros plant. Those later two worked well into the series terminator baby does not. Also one could say the Geth are Cylons but they don’t because they work artistically as well as physically into the world.



Also everytime I see TB I can't help but think of the robot chicken spoof

[RiouHotaru]

wulf3n wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Or, they had some other plan.  I love how everything lols at the Human-Reaper because it doesn't make any logistical sense.  And then it somehow slips people's minds that the Reapers are completely beyond human comprehension.  Nothing they do makes sense because we're viewing it from our limited human perspective.  We have no idea why they do the things they do or how they do them.  They're an unknown menace whose motives and goals are a mystery.  THAT'S THE POINT.

As for the "human goo" being nonsensical, again, we don't know what they do, or how they do it.  EDI was only making wild speculative guesses based on the limited information she had.  She knew about as much as Shepard did at that moment, so she did a few thousand calculations and data-cycles and whipped up what she felt were some educated guesses.  She's theorizing as much as we do on the forums.  Besides, how do we know that the Reapers don't have such advanced technology that even as goo the humans don't retain some mental sense of "self"?  Anyone remember this infamous quote?

"Sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Which is perfectly fine for reality...but this is a story. Doing things that go against the core perceptions of how the universe works, without offering ANY explanation is going to alienate the majority of the audience.

And that's what ME3 is for.

[RiouHotaru]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Sure. It makes more sense than the Terminator that was somehow infused with gray "genetic paste" (that actually appeared orange) and had 3 eyes. What makes it even better is that it's the shortest boss fight ever if you bring the Cain with you. You'd think they'd have built the thing to be sturdy enough to not crumble under one shot from a small arms explosive weapon.

Also, artistically, it (as in Terminator Kong, not the fetus) looks nearly identical to a boss in some old 2D sidescroller game. The name of it escapes me at the moment, though; otherwise I'd have a picture. It's been posted before in another one of these threads.

.There's a difference between being a Lovecraftian horror and being a laughing stock. Trollbinger's lame voice and even lamer one-liners on top of it really don't help. This villain decay is worthy of more than a few facepalms.

So because games and movies beforehand did the "metal human skeleton" thing, you have to shoot for something different?  Also, again, it's in a VERY early stage of development, so of course it looks awkward or funny.  It's probably barely 10% complete, what were you expecting?

Honestly?  I liked Harbinger.  Better than Sovereign being used as a plot device all of THREE times and having all the depth and development of a cardboard cutout.  Sovereign being a Reaper at all doesn't come into play until Virmire.  Until then it's just a giant ship that emits mind-control rays.  It feels more like a Giant Space Flea From Nowhere than a villain.

[kmcd5722]

On top of all the things mentioned already, it is a horrible boss fight.



I'm on Insanity Vangaurd, and I have had some frustrating moments prior to this boss. But I seriously just want to chuck my controller through the TV. That god forsaken human reaper won't die and Harbinger is so ****ing annoying. I have died so many times coming so close, I may give up. I can't stand it.

[The Smoking Man]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

Sure. It makes more sense than the Terminator that was somehow infused with gray "genetic paste" (that actually appeared orange) and had 3 eyes. What makes it even better is that it's the shortest boss fight ever if you bring the Cain with you. You'd think they'd have built the thing to be sturdy enough to not crumble under one shot from a small arms explosive weapon.

Also, artistically, it (as in Terminator Kong, not the fetus) looks nearly identical to a boss in some old 2D sidescroller game. The name of it escapes me at the moment, though; otherwise I'd have a picture. It's been posted before in another one of these threads.

.There's a difference between being a Lovecraftian horror and being a laughing stock. Trollbinger's lame voice and even lamer one-liners on top of it really don't help. This villain decay is worthy of more than a few facepalms.

So because games and movies beforehand did the "metal human skeleton" thing, you have to shoot for something different?  Also, again, it's in a VERY early stage of development, so of course it looks awkward or funny.  It's probably barely 10% complete, what were you expecting?

Honestly?  I liked Harbinger.  Better than Sovereign being used as a plot device all of THREE times and having all the depth and development of a cardboard cutout.  Sovereign being a Reaper at all doesn't come into play until Virmire.  Until then it's just a giant ship that emits mind-control rays.  It feels more like a Giant Space Flea From Nowhere than a villain.

There is so much wrong with the Human-Reaper. The Terminator King bit is just the tip of the iceberg. You're forgetting about the totally nonsensical "genetic paste" part, how EDI said it was "emitting both organic and non-organic energy signatures" (what the hell is an "organic energy signature"?), how the injection tubes were sometimes covered and sometimes not for no apparent reason, the glass of the injection tubes wasn't reinforced at all, how it had weak points so cleverly named "Weak Point" that you had to shoot, and that it shot generic red energy balls and didn't have any sense of aim. And died in 5 seconds with the Cain.

You like Harbinger? Well, I suppose there could be someone that could take a liking to...
Harbinger: ASUMIN KUNTROLL!!!!!!!!!11 UR FORM IZ FRAJIL!!!!!!!111111 BEND 2 ME-- *Dies* (Rinse, repeat)

As for Sovereign not being a Reaper until Virmire... what, were you expecting that plot point to get revealed during the first 5 minutes of the game? Harbinger is used even less as a plot device than Sovereign. He sorta just shows up and starts spewing one-liners at you via his remote-controlled troll drones.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 06 janvier 2011 - 12:11 .

[adam_grif]

"Sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

That's a non-argument. You may as well have said "they are so far beyond us that we can't understand." Ok, but then you have to admit that the writers don't understand what they were doing either, which means you've just destroyed your own position. That's not a defense!