161 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

Jamin101 wrote...
still a third game, no need to give up everything, now you have something you wanna find out about which keeps interest up, writing achieved

Not asking bioware to tell us everything about the reapers. I wasn't expecting a vigil like device on the base to answer every question i have. Just the questions that relate to the whole purpose of ME2. like what was the reaper being built for, and what purpose humans serve in the construction.
Things like the reapers overall motives, history, etc, make more sense to be in ME3, but it would be a nice little reward for stopping the reapers to be told what we did was for.

[Jamin101]

wulf3n wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
They need goo because that's how the Reapers reproduce.

But why were they creating a new reaper now? what was its purpose? was it a temporary fix rather than travel all the way here? if so maybe it didn't need to fully complete! 

who knows, the plot is still unraveling, maybe they were making a reaper to do the exact plot of me1 and open the citadel. its a piece of info we dont need, its ok when movies do this and most people actually like it but in a game its bad.

all we need to know is the game says hundreds of thousands have been abducted and their doing something that kills these humans and a baby reaper was there (which adds a plot line for the third)

[Iakus]

Jamin101 wrote...

still a third game, no need to give up everything, now you have something you wanna find out about which keeps interest up, writing achieved

Me 1 explained the Conduit and the Citadel, and didn't leave it hanging.  Didn't disuade me from preordering ME2. 

Leaving these question marks in ME2, not such a good thing.  

[Nightwriter]

AlanC9 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Humans are put into a blenderizer machine and turned into goo and the goo is funneled into the Reaper and a human shape somehow arises out of the goo, that human shape being made of metal and not goo at all.

Obviously, they shape the metal casing like a human because they know where the goo came from. Come to think of it, the post you were replying to stated that.

It's very confusing that they'd create the Reaper to resemble the organic race it came from when the Reapers disdain organic life. So you can understand why someone like me would think the human resemblence is unintentional after I've listened to Harby going "your form is weak" for a whole game. I is corn-fused.

[Jamin101]

wulf3n wrote...

Jamin101 wrote...
still a third game, no need to give up everything, now you have something you wanna find out about which keeps interest up, writing achieved

 

Not asking bioware to tell us everything about the reapers. I wasn't expecting a vigil like device on the base to answer every question i have. Just the questions that relate to the whole purpose of ME2. like what was the reaper being built for, and what purpose humans serve in the construction.
Things like the reapers overall motives, history, etc, make more sense to be in ME3, but it would be a nice little reward for stopping the reapers to be told what we did was for.

it would be nice but not required. just assume had the human reaper been completed it would be me1 al over again and attack the citadel, attack the terminus, geth etc

we dont know the purpose humans serve because its a motive which you say is good for the third. if i had to guess something about salvation through destruction

[Jamin101]

iakus wrote...

Jamin101 wrote...

still a third game, no need to give up everything, now you have something you wanna find out about which keeps interest up, writing achieved

Me 1 explained the Conduit and the Citadel, and didn't leave it hanging.  Didn't disuade me from preordering ME2. 

Leaving these question marks in ME2, not such a good thing.  

well the citadel is a hub so hopefully much explaining wasnt needed.

human reaper carries over to third game, conduit is never mentioned again, its not the same

[adam_grif]

The "genetic paste" notion is pretty much just made up out of whole cloth anyway. All we can say is that it's organic, and it's made of people. The game just plain doesn't tell us what exactly it is, or what exactly it is being used for. The dialogue is very deliberately vague.

The writing is on the wall with this one. The reapers mock Salarians for being too genetically fragile, the Asari for depending on other species for reproduction (this apparently makes them 'inferior'), they complement Miranda on her impressive genetics, and so on. The game had a constant sub-plot about how humans were so genetically impressive, and the collectors were interested in them because of it. Then, at the end of the game, we see that the colonists are liquefied, and that the tubes are feeding them into the Reaper.

This is how we get the GENETIC PASTE meme. It's also arrived at by process of elimination - mind uploading doesn't make sense (why are they gooifying people? Why are genetically fragile species unstable even though Salarians are like a race of geniuses and the Asari have the wisdom of the ages? If the Reaper is controlled by uploaded humans why is it hostile, why does it help the other reapers? Same goes for all previous reapers, which apparently have come from other species in the past), and what else is there?

Case in point. What reason do you have to think that EDI is endorsing vitalism in her use of the word "essence"? I don't see how you extract that from her dialogue. There simply isn't enough there to say what exactly she's getting at.

What else could she be talking about? Slang term for semen?

Vitalism is the notion that some kind of "life force" exists, as opposed to life being a set of physical conditions. Vitalism must be true in order for there to be something special about mushed up humans as opposed to simply mass producing the raw materials that humans are made of (and using DNA duplication to mass produce genetic material from a small sample of humans, then randomizing parts of it to create variation). Further, the essence of humans must exist, which is why there is something special about human life force instead of, say, chimpanzee or cat or Asari goop.

terrible examples, because not wearing armour equates to the endless
possibilities of what the "goo" is needed for, maybe i just dont get it.

The point I made was that something being nonsensical cannot be justified by an appeal to them being "so advanced we just don't understand". We understand enough about metalurgy and biology and philosophy to say with certitude that this is utter hogwash.

you also should listen to harbinger ramble, he mentions why they dont choose asari, there is probably a youtube vid of it

Harbinger explaining why the other races won't do is completely central to my arguments here. Pay attention.

your last paragraph is just needless insults. star ship fuel instead of
causing cancer gives you the force lol yet eezo is sound scientific?

Nice straw-man! Eezo is (in principle) an alternate physics that is (in theory) self consistent and the premise of the series rests on the things it provides (FTL travel, antigrav, shields etc). Mass Effect could not exist without it. Internally consistent physical breaches are totally acceptable, they're stock of the trade in SciFi. (As it happens the writers and worldbuilders screwed up Eezo and it's not internally consistent at all, but this is something I absolutely do blast them for in the past and will continue to do so in the future).

If you can't see how that is different from this nonsensical dribble then you aren't going to be remembered as one of our generations greatest thinkers, to say the least. By your argument, anything, nomatter how ridiculous, can be justified in the series because some things in the series are physically impossible.

Modifié par adam_grif, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:21 .

[wulf3n]

Jamin101 wrote...
who knows, the plot is still unraveling, maybe they were making a reaper to do the exact plot of me1 and open the citadel. its a piece of info we dont need, 

Except it means ME2 can't stand on its own as a game. Unless you play ME1 or ME3  you won't have any clue as to why the reaper was a threat, or why you needed to do anything you actually did.

Jamin101 wrote...
its ok when movies do this and most people actually like it but in a game its bad.

No, it doesn't work anywhere.

Jamin101 wrote...
all we need to know is the game says hundreds of thousands have been abducted and their doing something that kills these humans and a baby reaper was there

But that still renders everything we did in ME2 relatively pointless as we may or may not have accomplished something.

Jamin101 wrote...
(which adds a plot line for the third)

I didn't think ME3 needed a plot line, other than the reapers are coming. (edit: I mean here)

As it stands now, you could skip ME2 (if you don't care about the character transfer) and not really miss anything. Nothing is revealed that probably won't be re-explained. If they tell us how humans are used for creating reapers, then they're telling you there and then that reapers are made from organics. 

Modifié par wulf3n, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:21 .

[Iakus]

Jamin101 wrote...

well the citadel is a hub so hopefully much explaining wasnt needed.

human reaper carries over to third game, conduit is never mentioned again, its not the same

The Citadel was a dark space relay.  Why opening that would be a Bad Thing very much needed explaining.

Explaining why the baby Reaper is a Bad Thing, beyond it being a Reaper and the Maguffin we've been sent after, likewise needed explaining.

Modifié par iakus, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:22 .

[88mphSlayer]

what bothered me was less the visual form than just how weak that human reaper is... i don't care if it's pretty far from being a finished reaper, why can pistol shots blow it up? and why are there massive "weak points" for "massive damage" eh? the Thorian was tougher than this tin man, and that thing literally was a hanging sack of crap

[Katamariguy]

Maybe if it didn't have three glowing eyes it would look scarier.

[didymos1120]

adam_grif wrote...

The writing is on the wall with this one. The reapers mock Salarians for being too genetically fragile, the Asari for depending on other species for reproduction (this apparently makes them 'inferior'), they complement Miranda on her impressive genetics, and so on. The game had a constant sub-plot about how humans were so genetically impressive, and the collectors were interested in them because of it.

Relatively minor, intermittent, and often vague is more like it, like pretty much all the Collector stuff.  And it was mostly about diversity when it was brought up by non-Reapers. Meaning: most of the time it was brought up.  In any case, that tells us nothing about how they intend to put the apparently satisfactory genetics of humanity to use.  All I'm willing to state as certain is that genetics are a selection criterion.

And it is singular, because we know that population size matters as well: it's the sole reason given for why the drell's rejection, and very likely the krogan (can't see why else them being "sterilized" would matter).  Also of interest: quarians were apparently given serious consideration solely on the basis of their extensive use of cybernetic augmentation.  And let's list the things they found interesting about humans (those that were mentioned anyway. Who knows how many there are):

a. biotic potential
b. genetic malleability
c. aggression levels.  Useful if controlled. 
d. emotional drives. Useful if subjugated.
e. impressive technical potential.

It's malleability I find most interesting in light of your "vitalism" notion.  Wouldn't that suggest an interest in altering those genetics?  Wouldn't that ruin the "essence of humanity" as you've chosen to define it?  I also find the mentions of mental traits interesting, especially the fact that they intend to control them. And "technical potential" sure sounds like another one to me.

Worth noting as well that these are comments about specific individuals, not all humans (even if you didn't know from hearing them in-game, it would be fairly easy to match them to your human companions).  All of it all the more interesting given how in so many of the other taunts, Harbinger speaks to Shepard as if Shepard will somehow continue to exist and will come to understand if captured by the Collectors and allowed to meet his/her Reaper-ordained destiny. 

The thing with population size is intriguing too: why do they care about that?  Maybe because there are too few individuals?  Because the potential for interesting genetic anomalies that they might not think of themselves or be able to replicate via tinkering or randomizing techniques is present?  Both? 

This is how we get the GENETIC PASTE meme. It's also arrived at by process of elimination - mind uploading doesn't make sense

Well, as you've repeatedly lamented, neither does genetic paste all on its lonesome.  So why is it the preferred crappy explanation?

What else could she be talking about?

Why not mind-uploading in addition to making use of their genetic and other material?  I mean, if you're doing the uploads, why not put the now "useless" meat to good use while also getting the already-existing DNA too?  Wasteful not to, really.  And we do know they're chock full of individual programs, thanks to Legion. Where do those come from, I wonder?  What's your explanation for that? Why ignore all the those hints in the mind-uploading direction, which, at least, are nearly equal in number the genetics-mentioning ones?

Or, of course, it's quite possibly something else we can't figure out based on the currently available information (likely even given that Hudson quote I posted earlier).  Or something else in addition to both DNA-harvesting and eternal digital enslavement.

Slang term for semen?

Why stop there?  Maybe they lust after all of our Precious Bodily Fluids.  Probably fluoridate them too, the bastards.  I mean, we know they're into collectivism, after a certain fashion.

Vitalism is the notion that some kind of "life force" exists, as opposed
to life being a set of physical conditions. Vitalism must be true in
order for there to be something special about mushed up humans as
opposed to simply mass producing the raw materials that humans are made
of (and using DNA duplication to mass produce genetic material from a
small sample of humans, then randomizing parts of it to create
variation). Further, the essence of humans must exist, which is why there is something special about human life force instead of, say, chimpanzee or cat or Asari goop.

A definition of vitalism wasn't what I asked for.  I wanted to know why EDI's use of "essence", which has a number of senses and could easily have been intended as figurative (BTW, there's also a possible stealth pun hidden in there), must refer only to vitalism and to vitalism only.   All I see here is you simply assuming the genetic paste thing is the one true Reaper plot, and doing exactly what I said: coming up, post-hoc, with a terrible explanation for it (vitalism), and then excoriating the game for supposedly relying on it.  If you turn out to be right, well, then bully for you and a gold star too, but I still say it's awfully premature and not remotely as well-supported as is claimed. 

[Aigyl]

Slayer299 wrote...

Aigyl wrote...

Keep in mind even the Codex says the reasons behind the Human Reaper are unknown. The story behind it is not finished yet. The devs haven't forgotten about the Human Reaper, it will very likely be elaborated on in ME3 as RiouHotaru said. Mass Effect is a trilogy after all, not everything is going to be fully explained in the second Act.

To say the Human Reaper does not make sense without having played ME3 is like saying Saruman in the LOTR books does not make sense because you don't know why he's sided with Sauron exactly until Return of the King (the Palantir I think it's called - the corrupted orb thingy that doesn't make an appearance until the third book and explains how Saruman fell to the dark side).

I'm sorry, but your analogy with Sauron and Saruman is just completely off. Saruman revealed he was working with Sauron waaayyy before RotK, in fact that reveal is happens back in FotR.  You learn about Sauron and Saurman during the meeting in ch 2 (yes I am something of a tolkien geek) and the same is true of the movie and even the palantir. Everything *is* explained prior.

So saying that we have to wait until ME3 to have it explained and make sense doesn't work. We don't have to understand everything about their reasoning for goo-fiying humans, but the baby Terminator look just made zero sense at all or the conveniently placed weak points for you to shoot the tubes or (my favorite) the 4 red targets on baby Termy that just said "shoot me!".

Ah fair enough on the LOTR point, 'twas not my best comparison, especially as my LOTR lore is sucky

But I'll stick (stick to the death I say!) on the point that until we get more details about lil' baby Reaper in ME3 we can't say it doesn't make sense yet - particularly with the snippet from Casey Hudson that Didymos provided suggesting there's an explanation for why it looked human.

[RiouHotaru]

didymos1120 wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

The writing is on the wall with this one. The reapers mock Salarians for being too genetically fragile, the Asari for depending on other species for reproduction (this apparently makes them 'inferior'), they complement Miranda on her impressive genetics, and so on. The game had a constant sub-plot about how humans were so genetically impressive, and the collectors were interested in them because of it.

Relatively minor, intermittent, and often vague is more like it, like pretty much all the Collector stuff.  And it was mostly about diversity when it was brought up by non-Reapers. Meaning: most of the time it was brought up.  In any case, that tells us nothing about how they intend to put the apparently satisfactory genetics of humanity to use.  All I'm willing to state as certain is that genetics are a selection criterion.

And it is singular, because we know that population size matters as well: it's the sole reason given for why the drell's rejection, and very likely the krogan (can't see why else them being "sterilized" would matter).  Also of interest: quarians were apparently given serious consideration solely on the basis of their extensive use of cybernetic augmentation.  And let's list the things they found interesting about humans (those that were mentioned anyway. Who knows how many there are):

a. biotic potential
b. genetic malleability
c. aggression levels.  Useful if controlled. 
d. emotional drives. Useful if subjugated.
e. impressive technical potential.

It's malleability I find most interesting in light of your "vitalism" notion.  Wouldn't that suggest an interest in altering those genetics?  Wouldn't that ruin the "essence of humanity" as you've chosen to define it?  I also find the mentions of mental traits interesting, especially the fact that they intend to control them. And "technical potential" sure sounds like another one to me.

Worth noting as well that these are comments about specific individuals, not all humans (even if you didn't know from hearing them in-game, it would be fairly easy to match them to your human companions).  All of it all the more interesting given how in so many of the other taunts, Harbinger speaks to Shepard as if Shepard will somehow continue to exist and will come to understand if captured by the Collectors and allowed to meet his/her Reaper-ordained destiny. 

The thing with population size is intriguing too: why do they care about that?  Maybe because there are too few individuals?  Because the potential for interesting genetic anomalies that they might not think of themselves or be able to replicate via tinkering or randomizing techniques is present?  Both? 

This is how we get the GENETIC PASTE meme. It's also arrived at by process of elimination - mind uploading doesn't make sense

Well, as you've repeatedly lamented, neither does genetic paste all on its lonesome.  So why is it the preferred crappy explanation?

What else could she be talking about?

Why not mind-uploading in addition to making use of their genetic and other material?  I mean, if you're doing the uploads, why not put the now "useless" meat to good use while also getting the already-existing DNA too?  Wasteful not to, really.  And we do know they're chock full of individual programs, thanks to Legion. Where do those come from, I wonder?  What's your explanation for that? Why ignore all the those hints in the mind-uploading direction, which, at least, are nearly equal in number the genetics-mentioning ones?

Or, of course, it's quite possibly something else we can't figure out based on the currently available information (likely even given that Hudson quote I posted earlier).  Or something else in addition to both DNA-harvesting and eternal digital enslavement.

Slang term for semen?

Why stop there?  Maybe they lust after all of our Precious Bodily Fluids.  Probably fluoridate them too, the bastards.  I mean, we know they're into collectivism, after a certain fashion.

Vitalism is the notion that some kind of "life force" exists, as opposed
to life being a set of physical conditions. Vitalism must be true in
order for there to be something special about mushed up humans as
opposed to simply mass producing the raw materials that humans are made
of (and using DNA duplication to mass produce genetic material from a
small sample of humans, then randomizing parts of it to create
variation). Further, the essence of humans must exist, which is why there is something special about human life force instead of, say, chimpanzee or cat or Asari goop.

A definition of vitalism wasn't what I asked for.  I wanted to know why EDI's use of "essence", which has a number of senses and could easily have been intended as figurative (BTW, there's also a possible stealth pun hidden in there), must refer only to vitalism and to vitalism only.   All I see here is you simply assuming the genetic paste thing is the one true Reaper plot, and doing exactly what I said: coming up, post-hoc, with a terrible explanation for it (vitalism), and then excoriating the game for supposedly relying on it.  If you turn out to be right, well, then bully for you and a gold star too, but I still say it's awfully premature and not remotely as well-supported as is claimed. 

Didy, I would by you a drink if I could.  Thank you for saying what I couldn't find the wording for.

[marshalleck]

Mister Mida wrote...

I don't like the whole concept of the Reapers being cyborgs instead of AI and tech as was implied in ME (1). I'm keeping my hopes up that the human Reaper was just some weird last resort plan of the Reapers but I expect the worst in ME3.

 Maybe you need to go back and look at some still frames from the Prothean beacon visions. They quite clearly show a mish-mash of organic and synthetic materials. 

I am definitely not saying Terminator boss was a good idea, nor was "humans are so special and so diverse we need to make our ships out of your goo", in fact I think whoever approved space Terminator was smoking crack and should probably be laid off. I'm just saying that the Reapers using organics for something is not an entirely unprecedented notion.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:07 .

[adam_grif]

Good. Gooood. Let the debate flow through you.


[quote]And it is singular,
because we know that population size matters as well: it's the sole
reason given for why the drell's rejection, and very likely the krogan
(can't see why else them being "sterilized" would matter).  Also of
interest: quarians were apparently given serious consideration solely on
the basis of their extensive use of cybernetic augmentation.  And let's
list the things they found interesting about humans (those that were
mentioned anyway. Who knows how many there are):

a. biotic potential
b. genetic malleability
c. aggression levels.  Useful if controlled. 
d. emotional drives. Useful if subjugated.
e. impressive technical potential.[/quote]

Population size only matters because if they can't get enough goop they can't build their ships. Let's get everything Harby apparently says on the subject on the table:

[quote]Harbinger: ASARI. RELIANCE UPON ALIEN SPECIES FOR REPRODUCTION SHOWS GENETIC WEAKNESS.
Harbinger: SALARIAN. INSUFFICIENT LIFE SPAN. FRAGILE GENETIC STRUCTURE.

Harbinger: HUMAN. VIABLE POSSIBILITY. IMPRESSIVE GENETIC MALLEABILITY.
Harbinger: HUMAN. VIABLE POSSIBILITY. IMPRESSIVE TECHNICAL POTENTIAL.
Harbinger: HUMAN. VIABLE POSSIBILITY IF EMOTIONAL DRIVES ARE SUBJUGATED.
Harbinger: HUMAN. VIABLE POSSIBILITY. GREAT BIOTIC POTENTIAL.

Harbinger: GETH AN ANNOYANCE. LIMITED UTILITY.
Harbinger: KROGAN. STERILIZED RACE. POTENTIAL WASTED.
Harbinger: TURIAN. YOU ARE CONSIDERED TOO PRIMITIVE.
Harbinger: QUARIAN. CONSIDERED DUE TO CYBERNETIC AUGMENTATION, WEAK IMMUNE SYSTEM 
    TOO DEBILITATING.
Harbinger: DRELL. USELESS. INSUFFICIENT NUMBERS.[/quote]

Somehow Salarian lifespan means they aren't useful? If all that's happening is being "ascended" why does that make sense? How could Quarian immune systems have anything to do with viability as Reapers, or the extent to which they make use of cybernetics? Do Reapers catch colds? Could he be talking about whether or not they are useful generally, as organic slaves (in the fashion of the collectors), not just whether they are suitable for reaperfication? The same goes for Biotic potential, which is not something that can "transfer" to a Reaper by goopifying them, but would be useful in a slave race.

[quote]It's malleability I find most interesting in light of your "vitalism" notion.  Wouldn't that suggest an interest in altering those genetics?  Wouldn't that ruin the "essence of humanity" as you've chosen to define it?  I also find the mentions of mental traits interesting, especially the fact that they intend to control them. And "technical potential" sure sounds like another one to me.[/quote]

Absolutely everything you just said makes perfect sense if Harby isn't exclusively discussing turning people into Reapers. If we assume they are 100% talking about Reaperfication potential, we are forced to assume that the Salarian lifespan could possibly result in "Bad reapers", the Asari preference to use other species in their reproduction (even though it's entirely optional) results in "Bad reapers" (the apparent defects caused by pureblood breeding could easily be considered an undesirable trait if they were wishing to breed asari, but not if they were just "ascending" them), that the Quarian immune system makes "bad reapers" and so on and so forth.

"Technical potential" could mean anything from their ability to install electrical outlets to some kind of vague notion like how well they will integrate with the reaperfication machine. It is certainly not a concept defined by Harbinger.

[quote]The thing with population size is intriguing too: why do they care about that?  Maybe because there are too few individuals? 
Because the potential for interesting genetic anomalies that they might
not think of themselves or be able to replicate via tinkering or
randomizing techniques is present?  Both? [/quote]

Or neither, given that there aren't enough Drell or Krogans in the galaxy that live outside of Tuchanka and the Hanar homeworld for their needs, but attacking Tuchanka means ploughing through the Krogan DMZ complete with council fleet and orbital battle stations, and attacking the Hanar homeworld means bringing the Turians straight down on them as well as any local defenses that the Hanar can muster. There may well be numerically sufficient numbers of both species, just none in "accessable" locations (i.e. small colonies with non-existent military garrisons). The collectors are just one ship.

[quote]
Well, as you've repeatedly lamented, neither does genetic paste all
on its lonesome.  So why is it the preferred crappy explanation?[/quote]

Because mind uploading is never mentioned at all, but feeding goop in via tubes is actually shown on screen.

[quote]Why not mind-uploading in addition to making use of their genetic and
other material?  I mean, if you're doing the uploads, why not put the
now "useless" meat to good use while also getting the already-existing
DNA too?  Wasteful not to, really. [/quote]

It's only "wasteful" if the product isn't useless, smelted humans are. How can that even be a building material? That is dumb! Really really dumb, fo reals.


[quote]And we do know they're chock full of individual programs, thanks to Legion. Where do those come from, I wonder?  What's your explanation for that?[/quote]

Every strong AI is made of numerous programs, because they necessary have countless different processes that all perform discreet tasks. If you consider a human brain to be a computer then even it is made up of dozens of "individual programs", because it's chock full of fixed function hardware that all handle different things, like maintaining homeostasis, analyzing sensory data (different parts for each sense), object recognition, memory recall, memory management, facial recognition, emotional management, hormonal management, maintaining balance when you're upright, driving your car for you while you're thinking about something completely unrelated, etc etc etc.

[quote]Why ignore all the those hints in the mind-uploading direction, which,
at least, are nearly equal in number the genetics-mentioning ones?[/quote]

The only one I would even consider a hint is the Geth thing you just mentioned, and only because I don't have much confidence in the writers and I doubt what I just told you even occurred to them.

[quote]Or, of course, it's quite possibly something else we can't figure out
based on the currently available information (likely even given that
Hudson quote I posted earlier).  Or something else in addition to both
DNA-harvesting and eternal digital enslavement.[/quote]

Why do I get the feeling they'll come up with something even dumber?

[quote]Why stop there?  Maybe they lust after all of our Precious Bodily Fluids.  Probably fluoridate them too, the bastards.  I mean, we know they're into collectivism, after a certain fashion.[/quote]

See, if they did that at least it would be funny in addition to stupid.

"I don't avoid Reapers, counciller. But I do deny them my essence."

[quote]A definition of vitalism wasn't what I asked for.  I wanted to know why
EDI's use of "essence", which has a number of senses and could easily
have been intended as figurative (BTW, there's also a possible stealth
pun hidden in there), must refer only to vitalism and to vitalism only.[/quote]

Actually I already said in that very paragraph that Vitalism was the implication of what was happening, not literally what she was saying. In order for her not to be meaning that there's something special about human goop (human goop specifically in opposition to any other kind of goop), then we have to take your explanation of "oh, they totally don't need human goop, they are just crazy about their recycling efforts. Didn't you know there are starving Reapers in Africa young man?"

[quote] If you turn out to be right, well, then bully for you and a gold star
too, but I still say it's awfully premature and not remotely as
well-supported as is claimed. 
[/quote]

At this stage I don't even care if I'm right or not, because your explanation is almost as ridiculous and I'll just be mocking it for slightly different reasons if true. Like, the inherent idiocy of collectively uploading tens of thousands of minds only to brainwash them into thinking the way you want them to think in the first place, thus destroying the point of having individual minds in the first place.

<_<

[ZLurps]

 Uh, someone bumbed older topic about "human Reaper" but I think I continue posting to this one.
Copy paste from older topic about why human fetus concept weren't used:

Jamin101 wrote...
you have no idea why it wasnt used? look at how retarded americans become when you mention abortion. imagine the outcry when a mother sees her 14 year old blowing up a giant fetus made of humans

I thought about that too when I was wondering about human Reaper larva design. I wouldn't single out just American market though. There are many mainly Catholic countries in Europe and if some opportunists were started similar media crap storm like there were for sex scene in ME1 who knows what might have happened.

I think it might be that how ME1 sex scene was handled on Fox news might have made Bioware careful about the desing.

Modifié par ZLurps, 06 janvier 2011 - 12:53 .

[didymos1120]

adam_grif wrote...

At this stage I don't even care if I'm right or not, because your explanation is almost as ridiculous and I'll just be mocking it for slightly different reasons if true.

Well, I guess no matter what, you'll be enjoying yourself...sort of..so yay you? 

[Slayer299]

Aigyl wrote...
Ah fair enough on the LOTR point, 'twas not my best comparison, especially as my LOTR lore is sucky

But I'll stick (stick to the death I say!) on the point that until we get more details about lil' baby Reaper in ME3 we can't say it doesn't make sense yet - particularly with the snippet from Casey Hudson that Didymos provided suggesting there's an explanation for why it looked human.

Ok, but my point was that even if we don't 100% understand their motives, it looked like a giant human terminator and baseing what we've seen of the other Reapers, they all have similar cuttlefish designs. So building a human looking Reaper and then sticking inside a completely diff't one (cuttlefish) makes zero sense, unless of course they planned to have human Termy fly around space like that.  Another problem is why did it have to look so human, I know that doesn't sound right, but the early artwork looked more creepy or here, it still has a humanoid shape to it but it's less defined especially since it is indentified as an embryo.  Lastly, why didn't the disabled Reaper we board to get the IFF not have any organic interior if they all use the same cuttlefish design to fly around it?

edit - fixed clarity

Modifié par Slayer299, 06 janvier 2011 - 01:39 .

[The Smoking Man]

ZLurps wrote...

I think it might be that how ME1 sex scene was handled on Fox news might have made Bioware careful about the desing.

Who cares what Faux News thinks?

[ZLurps]

The Smoking Man wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I think it might be that how ME1 sex scene was handled on Fox news might have made Bioware careful about the desing.

Who cares what Faux News thinks?

Well, I assume you meant that as rhetoric question but seriously, it's the most popular news channel in the US and according to dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm also considered most trustworthy news channel in the US.
So it looks like not everybody is watching it for the laughs.

Modifié par ZLurps, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:13 .

[The Smoking Man]

ZLurps wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I think it might be that how ME1 sex scene was handled on Fox news might have made Bioware careful about the desing.

Who cares what Faux News thinks?

Well, I assume you meant that as rhetoric question but seriously, it's the most popular news channel in the US and according to dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm also considered most trustworthy news channel in the US.
So it looks like not everybody is watching it for the laughs.

What a shame.

Edit: That survey had a sample size of 1151 registered voters. Therefore, I have dismissed its claim.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:18 .

[Aigyl]

Slayer299 wrote...

Ok, but my point was that even if we don't 100% understand their motives, it looked like a giant human terminator and baseing what we've seen of the other Reapers, they all have similar cuttlefish designs. So building a human looking Reaper and then sticking inside a completely diff't one (cuttlefish) makes zero sense, unless of course they planned to have human Termy fly around space like that.  Another problem is why did it have to look so human, I know that doesn't sound right, but the early artwork looked more creepy or here, it still has a humanoid shape to it but it's less defined especially since it is indentified as an embryo.  Lastly, why didn't the disabled Reaper we board to get the IFF not have any organic interior if they all use the same cuttlefish design to fly around it?

Will definitely agree with you that I'd have preferred the 'organic' baby Reaper had made the final cut, that would've been way more freaky/disturbing. I guess they cut it for fear of controversy or they had problems designing a boss battle for it, even though the Collector General is right over there for an alternate final battle. /shrug

Here be some concept art of what the current Human Reaper would look like once finished:



So I imagine that the fetus we see in-game would eventually grow and shape itself into the cuttlefish form, once fed enough human slushy. Looks similar to Sovereign and the other Reapers, but can still see that it has a large human-like shape on its underbelly setting it apart from the rest of the Space Cthulus.

As for why the fetus looks human in the first place I have no idea, hopefully ME3 will give a satisfactory explanation.

Modifié par Aigyl, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:28 .

[FlintlockJazz]

I agree with those saying that they should have used the other concept art for the baby-reaper that looked more organic and creepy, dunno why they went with what they did other than they figured that most people would be too dumb/oblivious to notice the similarity (raises the question as to what kind of people the devs hang around with that they would think that ).

EDIT: Oo and they could've added a baby's wail or something too!  Kinda like one from the Silent Hill games, real creepy like or something.  Doubt it would have made any more sense but until ME3 has a chance to explain it all (if it does) then none of it does anyway.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:51 .

[geertmans]

-deleted-

Modifié par geertmans, 06 janvier 2011 - 04:14 .