172 réponses à ce sujet

[Clone 071]

jayred vas normandy wrote...

never said i trust them but i will work toward a common goal with their help.

I only worked with them as much as I had to. Sooner or later TIM is going to stab me in the back. Might as well do it to him first.

once the reaper are gone then we can talk about their past but right now i got bigger fish to fry( much bigger)

I'll agree with you on that. Cerberus and the Heretics are only a thorn in the side, but I'll reel 'em in when this is over with.

jbblue05 wrote...

Actually paragons are more selfish they care more about satisfying their moral concious then the bigger picture.

I rather have the human race on top then looking up to aliens.

The only choice I can think of that a renegade betrays  someone is Samara. But then again even though its metagaming Samara is going to try to kill you.  I'm not even sure most renegades choose Morinth over Samara

How do Renegades only care about themselves?  Let me guess we aren't super-nice to people.  If Renegade Shepard was selfish they would be playing video games and drinking instead of risking their neck to save human colonies.

That disrupts the balance of the galaxy, and everyone else will join up with the Batarians and despise humanity.
Hmm... More selfish renegade choices:
Letting the Council die, killing everyone in Zhu's Hope just because they're forced to attack you, killing Wrex on Virmire because he "got in your way", killing all of Major Kyle's followers because they "got in your way", not giving Tali the geth data for her pilgrimage but handing over the Cerberus data to the Shadow Broker. And that's just a few things from ME1. I can come up with more.

Selling Tali's father out in her trial, letting innocents die from wounds while you're too selfish to give them any medigel, shooting a krogan up because he talks too much, talking sh!t with Jack just to have sex with her, and much more from ME2.

All of that just for personal gain. If you don't think that's selfish, then God help me what is?

Modifié par Clone 071, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:14 .

[jbblue05]

Siegdrifa wrote...


Pragagon black and white in ME is Samara with her code, she doesn't belive in redemption, it's just black and white, and i don't remember the paragon path in ME being the same way.

I never said it was. Based on some posters on this forum they want a fairy-tale ending. "good triumphs over evil".

Mordin strongly desagree with you, he achive great advancement without experimenting on living being and don't need to sacrifice other.

Actually Mordin did experiment on living beings  'just not living biengs capable of Calculus'

Mordin isn't the most morally just person in the ME universe.  He modified a bio-weapon called the Genophage

[GreenDragon37]

jbblue05 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Some paragons remind me of those geth infiltrators disquised as Asari.  They're just sitting their complaining about things they don't understand and doesn't match their personal beliefs.  Eventually Renegade Shepard puts them in their place.

Some people are too "morally just" and "politically correct" for their own good.

Its so easy to say something is wrong and that you would never support such a thing, because your not in the positon that someone else has to take.  I really believe paragons like things to be as 'black' and 'white'  'good' and 'evil'. as  possible.  I also think Paragons are "Captain Hindsight".

Renegades can say acceptable casualties all they want but once things become persoanl, perception changes.

I like Cerberus they are pioneers, they take risks so people in the future can benefit and learn from them.  Humanity advanced because they took risks. No risk no advancement.. 

Even if you take down Cerberus the Alliance will just create a "New Cerberus" and make sure your Shepard doesn't find out about it

Oh I'll find out. I've got Liara as LI and Shadow Broker. I'll know... and I'll stop 'em.

I find it funny that Renegades say that they "are doing things for the good of the galaxy". When they actually believe that Humans should "dominate everything" and that Humans are "the one true race, all aliens are inferior, Humanity FTW!". Sounds familliar...

They aren't as "good" as you make them out to be. Renegades will toss aside whatever and whomever in order to achieve their goals.  They hide behind the veil of  "progress" and "peace in our time". However, how many lives must be lost to achieve this "peace"? How many people must they step on to "unite" the galaxy under one banner?

Renegades only care about themselves. Not the greater whole. When the Reapers are gone and no-one is left, they will turn on the very people they swore they were doing all of the "heinous" crimes for.

How far is too far? For Renegades: it's not far enough!

Actually paragons are more selfish they care more about satisfying their moral concious then the bigger picture.

I rather have the human race on top then looking up to aliens.

The only choice I can think of that a renegade betrays  someone is Samara. But then again even though its metagaming Samara is going to try to kill you.  I'm not even sure most renegades choose Morinth over Samara

How do Renegades only care about themselves?  Let me guess we aren't super-nice to people.  If Renegade Shepard was selfish they would be playing video games and drinking instead of risking their neck to save human colonies.

Have you played ME:1? They basically have a **** you attitude to anyone and everyone. They don't believe in coooperation with aliens and mutual relationships with neighbors. They only believe in dominance, not balance. How are Paragons more selfish when you even say "I rather have the Humans race on top...". Hypocricy at its finest. You are the perfect example of a Renegade: "Screw everyone else, it's all about us!"

Renegades wouldn't even lift a finger if it was anything other than a Human colony.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

One of the many reasons the Alliance needs a major overhaul. I have no issue with something like the STG doing something morally grey. But the STG gets goddamn results without relying on Shepard.

When they aren't letting genophage cures fall out, that is.

Can we point towards a single significant STG success that the STG did not proceed to bumble to near disaster?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:58 .

[jayred vas normandy]

like i said im paragon (paragade). and i can see that if u look at the game with an objective veiw point cerberus is the best group for u to work with at this time. no one from cerberus is saying your mental state is F'd up. or dismissing claims. cerberus is saying got get the and send us the bill. if any thing the people most want to aline with are just standing in your way.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

One of the many reasons the Alliance needs a major overhaul. I have no issue with something like the STG doing something morally grey. But the STG gets goddamn results without relying on Shepard.

When they aren't letting genophage cures fall out, that is.

Can we point towards a single significant STG success that the STG did not proceed to bumble to near disaster?

Which significant failure did the STG have? 

I haven't seen any major ones other than the Genophage for good or ill. 

[Siegdrifa]

jbblue05 wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...


Pragagon black and white in ME is Samara with her code, she doesn't belive in redemption, it's just black and white, and i don't remember the paragon path in ME being the same way.

I never said it was. Based on some posters on this forum they want a fairy-tale ending. "good triumphs over evil".

Mordin strongly desagree with you, he achive great advancement without experimenting on living being and don't need to sacrifice other.

Actually Mordin did experiment on living beings  'just not living biengs capable of Calculus'

Mordin isn't the most morally just person in the ME universe.  He modified a bio-weapon called the Genophage

I mean he never made experiment on sapient being because it's never required in this univers.

[GreenDragon37]

jbblue05 wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...


Pragagon black and white in ME is Samara with her code, she doesn't belive in redemption, it's just black and white, and i don't remember the paragon path in ME being the same way.

I never said it was. Based on some posters on this forum they want a fairy-tale ending. "good triumphs over evil".

Mordin strongly desagree with you, he achive great advancement without experimenting on living being and don't need to sacrifice other.

Actually Mordin did experiment on living beings  'just not living biengs capable of Calculus'

Mordin isn't the most morally just person in the ME universe.  He modified a bio-weapon called the Genophage

Uh, Mordin never experimented on living beings. And for now, the Genophage is necessary. The Krogan aren't ready for the cure, not yet. I'm hoping Wrex can solve that issue.

Puttin g Humans at the top/siezing power is not a neccessity. It's a grasp for power. Nothing else.

[Dean_the_Young]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why not Cerberus?

Lol! They ain't cool aliens, therefore they suck!!!

Uh... probably because they are terrorists and rouges? Did I mention... RACIST!?

Rogues, yes, most likely. Terrorists, not by conventional, reasonable working-definitions of the word. Cerberus has never shown any interest or intent in publicly terrorizing any populace or government into accepting or following their beliefs.

Cerberus is an extremist group, an ideological group, a monstrous group, a criminal group, possibly even an insurgent group in a few particular references not featued upon in the game... but nothing we've seen or heard really warrants being called a terrorist group.


Racist depends on the individual. As an organization, they're much more of a xeno-nationalistic group, emphasis on the nationalism, in a galaxy defined (by the Council) along xeno-national lines. The only people to assign or attribute them ambitions of alien conquest, enslavement, hatred, or even superiority have been their enemies. Cerberus could do the exact same things with the exact same rhetoric on the behalf of a national unit with no race differences to be considered.

[jbblue05]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Have you played ME:1? They basically have a **** you attitude to anyone and everyone. They don't believe in coooperation with aliens and mutual relationships with neighbors. They only believe in dominance, not balance. How are Paragons more selfish when you even say "I rather have the Humans race on top...". Hypocricy at its finest. You are the perfect example of a Renegade: "Screw everyone else, it's all about us!"

Renegades wouldn't even lift a finger if it was anything other than a Human colony.

Renegades can be a jerk to both humans and aliens, so HA! equality.

How do we not believe in cooperation with aliens?  Just because we might be human first doesn't mean we don't want to work with aliens.  TIM is the biggest human-first advocate and he still works with aliens.

Thier is no balance on the Counicl. The Asari dominate the Council and even if you save the COuncil the Alliance is a 4th wheel not much pull..   
Their will never be balance that's a pipe dream you paragons are too idealistic for your own good.  Facts are everyone and species is trying to gain an advantage.

The Paragons are still more selfish.  Being human first will benfit billions of Alliance citizens. Paragons satisfying their moral concious only benefits them and the person they are being nice to.

Just because your nice to the Batarians on Mordin mission doesn't put Batarians and Humans on good terms.

Letting the Council die advances the Alliance more than saving the Council

Modifié par jbblue05, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:12 .

[GreenDragon37]

jayred vas normandy wrote...

like i said im paragon (paragade). and i can see that if u look at the game with an objective veiw point cerberus is the best group for u to work with at this time. no one from cerberus is saying your mental state is F'd up. or dismissing claims. cerberus is saying got get the and send us the bill. if any thing the people most want to aline with are just standing in your way.

I'm hoping ME 3 relieves this. I can understand us just working for Cerberus in ME 2 and ME 3 if we want. But if we didn't want to and gave TIM the finger, we can return to the Council with proof and have Liara's help since she is now the Shadow Broker.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

One of the many reasons the Alliance needs a major overhaul. I have no issue with something like the STG doing something morally grey. But the STG gets goddamn results without relying on Shepard.

When they aren't letting genophage cures fall out, that is.

Can we point towards a single significant STG success that the STG did not proceed to bumble to near disaster?

Which significant failure did the STG have?

The genophage, twice (Saren and Maleon, an STG operative no less).

I haven't seen any major ones other than the Genophage for good or ill.

Indeed. But of the STG operations we've been given any involvement with, 100% of them have been near complete failures, on multiple occasions, with pending consequences of galactic war proportions.

100%. That's worse than anyone else's track record.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:10 .

[wolfsite]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why not Cerberus?

Lol! They ain't cool aliens, therefore they suck!!!

Uh... probably because they are terrorists and rouges? Did I mention... RACIST!?

Rogues, yes, most likely. Terrorists, not by conventional, reasonable working-definitions of the word. Cerberus has never shown any interest or intent in publicly terrorizing any populace or government into accepting or following their beliefs.

Cerberus is an extremist group, an ideological group, a monstrous group, a criminal group, possibly even an insurgent group in a few particular references not featued upon in the game... but nothing we've seen or heard really warrants being called a terrorist group.


Racist depends on the individual. As an organization, they're much more of a xeno-nationalistic group, emphasis on the nationalism, in a galaxy defined (by the Council) along xeno-national lines. The only people to assign or attribute them ambitions of alien conquest, enslavement, hatred, or even superiority have been their enemies. Cerberus could do the exact same things with the exact same rhetoric on the behalf of a national unit with no race differences to be considered.

Just want to state that Miranda herself has said that most people join Cerberus out of simple Xenophobia/Racism so even if TIM is not (I honestly don't believe he is) there are people around him who clearly are and that can cause problems.

[GreenDragon37]

jbblue05 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Have you played ME:1? They basically have a **** you attitude to anyone and everyone. They don't believe in coooperation with aliens and mutual relationships with neighbors. They only believe in dominance, not balance. How are Paragons more selfish when you even say "I rather have the Humans race on top...". Hypocricy at its finest. You are the perfect example of a Renegade: "Screw everyone else, it's all about us!"

Renegades wouldn't even lift a finger if it was anything other than a Human colony.

Renegades can be a jerk to both humans and aliens, so HA! equality.

How do we not believe in cooperation with aliens?  Just because we might be human first doesn't mean we don't want to work with aliens.  TIM is the biggest human-first advocate and he still works with aliens.

Thier is no balance on the Counicl. The Asari dominate the Council and even if you save the COuncil the Alliance is a 4th wheel not much pull.   

Actually, from the looks of it, Turians dominate the Council. <_<

Also, we are pretty new and slowly gaining in strength. Not much is gonna change in two years when the Council has been around for millenia.

Also, I don't consider siezing power cooperating with Aliens. Cerberus is only working with Aliens for now because they are desperate. That will change when the Reapers are gone, however. We all know it.

[88mphSlayer]

Cerberus was just one of those generic evil corporations in ME1 that's since been replaced by generic evil gangs like the Blue Suns or Eclipse in ME2

if you go back to the first game, every edge-of-space corporation is doing something shady - you've got Exo Geni using the Thorian to corrupt colonists and turn them into weapons (re: Thorian Creepers), you've got the goons on Noveria trying to make a Rachni army in secret, you even had all the messy L2 Biotic stuff with the Alliance, the only reason Cerberus is remembered is because you work for them in ME2... they were secretive in the first game but not really out of the ordinary, i always thought the shadow broker was more interesting in ME1

the irony is the shadow broker came off as an interesting intelligence source that buys and sells information while ME2 turned the shadow broker into a bloodthirsty power-mad egomaniac... and on the flip side you saw one of the generic evil corporations in ME1 turn into the most intriguing group of people in the galaxy in ME2 thanks to the Illusive Man, i guess they had a change in heart

as for the collector base, i keep it most of the time, i'm not worried about people getting indoctrinated since it's just a collector base and not an actual reaper, not to mention Cerberus still got their hands on reaper tech when you blew up Sovereign in the first game, so things don't really change all that much

[Dean_the_Young]

wolfsite wrote...

Just want to state that Miranda herself has said that most people join Cerberus out of simple Xenophobia/Racism so even if TIM is not (I honestly don't believe he is) there are people around him who clearly are and that can cause problems.

She never said that most people do. She said that there are many people do, there's far more to it than that.

[George Silver]

I can understand working with Cerberus to a point, but giving them the collector base wasn't an option in my opinion. I can respect them for getting off their asses and doing something against the threat that the Alliance won't acknowledge. But giving them the entirety of the collector technology would be catastrophic! It would put them in the forefront of power, and with the Illusive man's leadership that would be a bad idea since he seems too prideful. When one group sees itself as the only way humanity can move forward, there's a problem.



But without the collector base, Cerberus won't have the ability to fight the Reapers alone. And who will they turn to? The Alliance. With these two groups working together there will be a meshing of ideas and policies, which would keep the balance of power in humanity. Then with every major race working against the Reapers, Cerberus might even step down a little on their "humanity first" policy.



But even if they don't, every species wants to be at the forefront, so I can't truly hate Cerberus for what they've done. I can disagree with the path they took to get to the endpoint, but they still want to make humanity better. With a balance reached Cerberus can still help humanity towards progress, but might not step on the toes of the other species as much.



That's my opinion anyway...

[GreenDragon37]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why not Cerberus?

Lol! They ain't cool aliens, therefore they suck!!!

Uh... probably because they are terrorists and rouges? Did I mention... RACIST!?

Rogues, yes, most likely. Terrorists, not by conventional, reasonable working-definitions of the word. Cerberus has never shown any interest or intent in publicly terrorizing any populace or government into accepting or following their beliefs.

Cerberus is an extremist group, an ideological group, a monstrous group, a criminal group, possibly even an insurgent group in a few particular references not featued upon in the game... but nothing we've seen or heard really warrants being called a terrorist group.


Racist depends on the individual. As an organization, they're much more of a xeno-nationalistic group, emphasis on the nationalism, in a galaxy defined (by the Council) along xeno-national lines. The only people to assign or attribute them ambitions of alien conquest, enslavement, hatred, or even superiority have been their enemies. Cerberus could do the exact same things with the exact same rhetoric on the behalf of a national unit with no race differences to be considered.

I still believe that they are a Racist terrorist group. Even jacob believes that they are called terrorists for a good reason. And after reading the Shadow Broker's dossiers, I'm more convinced that erberus are terrorists and xenophobes, considering that they called for a political/religious assassination and they support Terra Firma (who are extremely xenophobic).

TIM only put you with the least Xenophobic group in the bunch because he wanted to make himself look good. He  brought in Joker, again, to himself look good, and trick Shephard into thinking "these guys aren't so bad, after all." A smart move, but luckily, it didn't work on me. I could see right through his crock of crap.

And about that "Human dominance against the Reapers and beyond" line. I guess that's not  xenophobic in the least, right? <_<

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:27 .

[AnubisXy1]

I find it humorous that if you choose to give Cerberus the Collector base and then go talk with your crew, everybody says it was probably a bad idea. Even Miranda says she isn't sure if handing it over to the Illusive man was the smart choice.

[Clone 071]

jbblue05 wrote...

The Paragons are still more selfish.  Being human first will benfit billions of Alliance citizens. Paragons satisfying their moral concious only benefits them and the person they are being nice to.

But not necessarily everyone you talk to is human. Heck, at least 2/3 of the ones you speak to are aliens.
And saving the Council doesn't didn't just benefit you and the 3 Council members. It benefited all 4 races at that.

[George Silver]

I don't see either saving the council or letting it die as selfish. Either way you're trying to benefit the galaxy, whether it's human dominated or not.

I let the council live because now everyone sees humanity in a better light instead of power-hungry.

Letting the council die will benefit humanity in the short run, but in my opinion it won't help for long.

Modifié par George Silver, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:27 .

[GreenDragon37]

wolfsite wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why not Cerberus?

Lol! They ain't cool aliens, therefore they suck!!!

Uh... probably because they are terrorists and rouges? Did I mention... RACIST!?

Rogues, yes, most likely. Terrorists, not by conventional, reasonable working-definitions of the word. Cerberus has never shown any interest or intent in publicly terrorizing any populace or government into accepting or following their beliefs.

Cerberus is an extremist group, an ideological group, a monstrous group, a criminal group, possibly even an insurgent group in a few particular references not featued upon in the game... but nothing we've seen or heard really warrants being called a terrorist group.


Racist depends on the individual. As an organization, they're much more of a xeno-nationalistic group, emphasis on the nationalism, in a galaxy defined (by the Council) along xeno-national lines. The only people to assign or attribute them ambitions of alien conquest, enslavement, hatred, or even superiority have been their enemies. Cerberus could do the exact same things with the exact same rhetoric on the behalf of a national unit with no race differences to be considered.

Just want to state that Miranda herself has said that most people join Cerberus out of simple Xenophobia/Racism so even if TIM is not (I honestly don't believe he is) there are people around him who clearly are and that can cause problems.

So I'm guessing that whole "securing Human dominance against the Reapers and beyond" line wasn't xenophobic in the least, huh?

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:28 .

[jbblue05]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Actually, from the looks of it, Turians dominate the Council. <_<

Also, we are pretty new and slowly gaining in strength. Not much is gonna change in two years when the Council has been around for millenia.

Also, I don't consider siezing power cooperating with Aliens. Cerberus is only working with Aliens for now because they are desperate. That will change when the Reapers are gone, however. We all know it.

No the Asari dominate the Council. The council chairman is an Asari.
The Asari Republics economy is the most powerful economy in the Galaxy which means they have a lot of pull.

Why do you think the Turians co-developed the SR1 with the Alliance because the Asari told them to do. " Sorry for attacking your colony but the Asari told us,  I mean we wanted to make it up to you by giving you some cool tech"

How do you know if Cerberus was working with Aliens  pre-ME2
TIM is smart and resourceful he knows he is limiting himself if he only works with humans 

[Clone 071]

George Silver wrote...

I don't see either saving the council or letting it die as selfish. Either way you're trying to benefit the galaxy, whether it's human dominated or not.

I let the council live because now everyone sees humanity in a better light instead of power-hungry.

Letting the council die will benefit humanity in the short run, but in my opinion it won't help for long.

Letting them die promotes hatred amongst humans on the Citadel as they see humanity as power-hungry. They just lost their main Councilors with humanity replacing them. Therefore, the Council races don't really benefit.

Modifié par Clone 071, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:33 .

[GreenDragon37]

jbblue05 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Actually, from the looks of it, Turians dominate the Council. <_<

Also, we are pretty new and slowly gaining in strength. Not much is gonna change in two years when the Council has been around for millenia.

Also, I don't consider siezing power cooperating with Aliens. Cerberus is only working with Aliens for now because they are desperate. That will change when the Reapers are gone, however. We all know it.

No the Asari dominate the Council. The council chairman is an Asari.
The Asari Republics economy is the most powerful economy in the Galaxy which means they have a lot of pull.

Why do you think the Turians co-developed the SR1 with the Alliance because the Asari told them to do. " Sorry for attacking your colony but the Asari told us,  I mean we wanted to make it up to you by giving you some cool tech"

How do you know if Cerberus was working with Aliens  pre-ME2
TIM is smart and resourceful he knows he is limiting himself if he only works with humans 

OK, I don't remember that bit. You seem to be speculating now. The Humans and the Turians built the SR-1 to ease tensions. Nothing about the Asari telling them to do it. And what does the Asari having a strong economy have to do with it? They were the first ones to discover the Citadel, they live longer than almost  everyone else, and probably journeyed into space before the others, they helped to establish the Council! Of course they are gonna be ahead and have a lot of political pull!

But we see that Turian Councilor changes a lot of minds, doesn't he? <_<

And I don't think the Illusive Man was in charge in ME 1. (disproven)

Again, he's only doing it for now because he's desperate. The Reapers are coming. When they're gone, they'll probably shift their positions to be more in line with Terra Firma.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 janvier 2011 - 07:39 .